common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

unfortunately i joined my first mp games 1 months ago so i have yet to see my first sc's crushing me .
in the Last days i think i began to understand dominions 2 a bit better .
first a introduction question lol :
are there any spells which increase attack / defense ?

so would you experts plz be so kind and simply post some sc's with their attack , defense and protection values unfatigued which you use yourself ?
and then after that if you would like a hypothetical with the best defense / protection values you could think of .
iirc there is a cap for att , def , prot at 40 .

after you posted your sc's i will tomorrow post some questions with some tactics to use common troops i had thought of and you will tell me if that would possibly work to defeat a sc from what you have seen in your mp expierience http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
because with dominions i think you can only claim to have mp experience after at least 1 year of play http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

i won't use mandragoras / carrion beasts or vampires for that they are well known i think .
at least even if i as a newbie know of them that is a sign that it is common knowlegde ihmo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

Quckness boosts attack and defense, several earth spells add armour.

EDIT: Sacreds with fire 9 bless can work against many SCs.

[ July 29, 2004, 00:59: Message edited by: quantum_mechani ]

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, a common Bane Lord can have attack and defense values around 20-ish. Ice Devils and Arch Devils push into the 25+ range, and you can see highly experienced units such as high-class combat pretenders pushing into 30+, or even higher with the rare "Power" wish.

The right choice of ordinary schmoes can sometimes take down the lower-class ones, but most of the good ones tend to require magefire take down if you're not equipped with your own SCs, since ordinary troops get mowed through like grass. I suggest the use of lifeless ordinaries to impede the target's ability to lifesteal itself. Do NOT combine them with living troops, or your efforts to wear down the target may be undone by those living troops getting attacked and feeding an SC that was close to death. Lots of longdeads, statues, mechanicals, and/or golems work well here. Combine this with some sort of non-resistable attack, such as Astral Fire, Banefire, or Drain Life, and you can sink one without using your own.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

Astral Fire should go through the MR to damage the target.
Not so useful as spell for what I've seen.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What do you mean? Astral fires is a damaging spell that is not affected by MR at all, and does 10 armour negating damage to a good area with 100 precision.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

ummm, the description of the spell says, and i quote: "Magic resistance negates"

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It does appear to say that, yes. It's probably lying, though. It's all a big conspiracy to scare you off of using it. Pure and utter propaganda. Pay it no heed.

[ July 29, 2004, 08:11: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

I suppose this could work. Although if the SC has a life draining weapon he may still be able to replenish his hit points faster than you can wear them down. You'll also have to worry about your troops routing before they finish the SC off.

On the bright side, a Pan that can cast Weapons of Sharpness can also cast Petrify. After you research up to Alt 6 (or is it 7?), of course. That ought to be pretty helpful in taking down SCs.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Putting aside the idea of why you would even want to rush to const-7 to make nation specific common troops useful against SCs...
or why you couldn't just use crossbows with wind guide, flaming guide or just a mass of them...
or why if you had a research level of 7 and a 5E mage, why you wouldn't just petrify instead...
are you taking into account common SC items like luck ammys and charc shields ?

-Kel

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Putting aside the idea of why you would even want to rush to const-7 to make nation specific common troops useful against SCs...
or why you couldn't just use crossbows with wind guide, flaming guide or just a mass of them...
or why if you had a research level of 7 and a 5E mage, why you wouldn't just petrify instead...
are you taking into account common SC items like luck ammys and charc shields ?

-Kel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah i take that into account .
afaik weapons of sharpness makes weapons magic too . so etheralness doesn't protect .
that means 50% of the hits fail through luck from luck ammy right ?

afaik the damage shields apply AFTER the attack .
so 90% of the maenads will die through the shield but that damage is after the maenad did damage to the sc right ?

furthermore a minotaur has 27 hp so he will survive 1 damage shield attack right ?

concerning life steal :
the pretender replenishes the same amount than he does as damage right ?
he will most likely have quickness so 2 attacks in his turn .
if you have a charcoil shield you have only a blood thorn or a soul vortex .

i don't fully know the soul vortex still , greame said he thinks it does drain 1 life on a couple of targets in the drain life area .

so without considering life drain if you don't fight a nataraja the sc will have either a charcoil shield + a bloodthorn most likely or a wraithsword but no shield .

he could cast a fire shield instead too .

so hopefully he takes 50-100 damage then with damage shields about 30-40 maenads will be dead .
if the sc has more hp than that , a vq would e.g. be already dead , i think he replenishes with 2 attacks about 20-30 life but perhaps that is too high.
if he hits e.g. 2 1hp maenads who survived the damage shield he only gets 2 hp drained or ?

because 100 maenads are really easy to achieve i think you have 2 combat rounds with full force .
it will be really tough .

@ Vynd petrify is really great too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif didn't think on that so thnx for the idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

what i liked with weapons of sharpness is that with that the maenads which are completely free should be very useful against common troops like knights too .
with 5:1 ratio maenad : knight the knights should get killed quite quick too .

so if you even research after con 7 alteration 6 for petrify you could script your horde to hold and attack and your mage(s) to weapons of sharpness , petrify , petrify , petrify , petrify , cast spells .

since the maenads are so easy to get you can even guard your mages by 20-30 of them which will kill most small attack Groups thnx to weapons of sharpness too .


so what do you think now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ?

you can even make your own scs with pan and cheaply be a danger to most scs after some turns with my described idea .

since you research con 7 you can forge dozens of bags of vine with your nature gems and use harpy scouts for that .
so after a couple of turns in midgame you can supply an army of 500+ maenads with mages .

and you have stealth forces so you can use gandalfs great tactics to weaken enemy economy furthermore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here's one from me.

1. Choose Caelum base theme.
2. Recruit some troops, any troops. (Infantry of some sort would be nice.)
3. Set to "attack fliers"; kill SC.

Heheh, sorry Boron, couldnt resist after our Last little MP together. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Here's another one.
1. Choose Machaka. Or Marignon. Or Tien Chi. Or any nation with easy access to fire and archers.
2. Reasearch Flaming Arrows.
3. Set to "fire enemy fliers"; kill SC.

EDIT: Sorry, this assumes by SC you mean your beloved VQ.

FA is particularly nice because at least some of your troops can keep their distance; the SC cant be everywhere at once.

Here's another one:
1. Choose Ermor. Or Pan CW. Or any nation with easy access to lots of undead.
2. Make lots of undead armies led by undead mages.
3. Swarm SC.

[ July 29, 2004, 15:08: Message edited by: tinkthank ]

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That surprises me actually, since there's not muc reason for an astral 3 mage to pick it over soul slay then.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Putting aside the idea of why you would even want to rush to const-7 to make nation specific common troops useful against SCs...
or why you couldn't just use crossbows with wind guide, flaming guide or just a mass of them...
-Kel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">because flaming arrows shouldn't work according to saber cherry's dice odds http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

the normal x-bow missile : marignon :
10 ap damage :
so avg. damage on 20 protection : 2.13
" " " " 30 " : 0.570

i wouldn't rely on that .
staff of storm lets you use only 50% of missiles or precision is -5 one of the 2 iirc .

invulnerability is a common sc buff . if you place your sc rearmost the hitting odds even with wind guide aren't too good .
so i wouldn't rely on killing him unbuffed in the first round of combat if you are defender .

furthermore lategame robe of invulnerability could be in use or a high prot armor .

bane lords + wraith lords & a couple of others have already something about 20 prot unequipped .

so you have quite a high chance not killing the sc . guess what happens if he flies in your archers :
lots of losses through friendly fire hehe .

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, a common Bane Lord can have attack and defense values around 20-ish. Ice Devils and Arch Devils push into the 25+ range, and you can see highly experienced units such as high-class combat pretenders pushing into 30+, or even higher with the rare "Power" wish.

The right choice of ordinary schmoes can sometimes take down the lower-class ones, but most of the good ones tend to require magefire take down if you're not equipped with your own SCs, since ordinary troops get mowed through like grass. I suggest the use of lifeless ordinaries to impede the target's ability to lifesteal itself. Do NOT combine them with living troops, or your efforts to wear down the target may be undone by those living troops getting attacked and feeding an SC that was close to death. Lots of longdeads, statues, mechanicals, and/or golems work well here. Combine this with some sort of non-resistable attack, such as Astral Fire, Banefire, or Drain Life, and you can sink one without using your own. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well I ran into a snag using mechanicals. Recently, I was fighting a VQ with mechanical men, and an iron dragon. The VQ was the only one on the field, so I couldn't stop my dragon from attacking after 2 rounds, so it gets there before my troops do. The VQ was hitting it and getting hp from it, and she finally kills it. My mechanical men get there and mostly surround her, and she continues to hit them and gain hp, and she eventually wiped out like 80% of my troops. Next go around I was able to cast weapons of sharpness on my mech men and managed to kill her quick enough before she did too much damage. I was under the assumption that mechanical units were not alive and wouldn't aid life drainers, but that doesn't seem to be the case.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You know, I think life drain may be broken in a couple of respects. I could swear too that I had seen a lifedrainer gain HP from constructs and from undead at some points.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Aren't crossbows "armor piercing," making them able to negate protection? If that's so, then the SC could have astronomical prot and still take full damage from a crossbow hit (unless his def is also high). And yea, a flying SC would cause a pretty high ff casualies. And if the flying SC has boots of quickness and elixirs of life (if the elixir brings you back to life during the battle), then the SC is probably going to annihilate the crossbows. However, there is the chance that the SC could rout due to morale (unlikely, but possible).

[ July 29, 2004, 16:52: Message edited by: Ryukenden ]

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One of the turn tips mentions that crossbows are AP, so they halve (not negate) prot.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">One of the turn tips mentions that crossbows are AP, so they halve (not negate) prot. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Oops, haven't gotten that tip yet. Well, that idea has now gone down the toilet. Hmmm, there's always the Eye of Aiming scheme http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif (probably won't work, but worth a shot).

[ July 29, 2004, 16:58: Message edited by: Ryukenden ]

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Here's one from me.

1. Choose Caelum base theme.
2. Recruit some troops, any troops. (Infantry of some sort would be nice.)
3. Set to "attack fliers"; kill SC.

Heheh, sorry Boron, couldnt resist after our Last little MP together. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no comment on that one http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">see me new post why that is only relyable until protection 20 according to the odds .
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">undeads have 0 fatigue ---> never fatigue out ----> no ap attacks .

the later swarmers of course win the attack throw.
but due to their lack of ap even if you get a value of 20 from adding weapondamage + strenght you only make 0.131 avg. damage against a 30 protection unit .
so you hit but even the small regeneration of the vq will be enough to heal that damage .

sorry couldn't resist to answer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif

what you can achieve with swarming by mass skellettons etc. is of course reaching turn 50 and force the sc to rout .

but thnx you gave me a new idea :
i so far lack any jotun expierience so this is only a guess :
when jotun uses raise skelletons shouldn't they get undead jotun giants ?
a living jotun has a strengh of about 20 so i assume a longdead giant has still a strengh of 20 . together with the jotun weapons they get +3 for spear and +7 for axe and +9 for longsword .

not bad . so at best only 1 difference between prot and damage .
there the odds are 1.67 avg damage .

i have run a quicktest . it seems that 1/10 or something similiar of the reanimated are longdeads the rest normal skeletons .
powerful .

so a new very simply anti sc strat lol :

play niefelheim ^^. you can chose good scales + only a support god there .
bring out 1 niefel jarl / turn .

research ench 3 .
just reanimate with your niefels then put them on what you want , i think attack orders would be good .

problem is 40 fatigue and d2 for reanimate orders.
so you can only cast it twice .

but later with 10 niefel jarls that are 100 skeletons 10 of them jotuns + the niefels .
that should kill most sc's very brutal .
if you even give the niefel jarls duskdaggers ^^.
you can use some gygias with lucky picks too for reanimation .

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

lol Boron, you think much too highly of 20 prot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

a mass of flaming arrows will still devastate an SC w/ only 20 protection.

but if you want a cheap SC counter, go for the marignon flaming head bless strat, F9 S9 on massed flagellants. 200 bucks worth will kill a VQ.

[ July 29, 2004, 17:07: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's just the average damage. Consider what happens when 100 of those arrows hit at once.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You know, I think life drain may be broken in a couple of respects. I could swear too that I had seen a lifedrainer gain HP from constructs and from undead at some points. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">no vq has regeneration .
that is the source for her additional life .

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

Boron, I don't think it was regen. She was getting more hp than she started with. I didn't think regen could do that.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm do they really hit you during buffing ?
if you place rearmost on the battle field ?
even with wind guide on i doubt that you land much hits. against these first few hits you could wear a cheap armor which ensures that you survive at least .

again the important numbers :

flaming arrows has 8 ap damage .
avg. damage on a 20 protection unit : 1.29
avg. damage on a 30 protection unit : 0.321

the normal x-bow missile : marignon :
10 ap damage :
so avg. damage on 20 protection : 2.13
" " " " 30 " : 0.570

protection 30 is if you aim at it really early available ( turn 10 ca. ) with invulnerability .
any sc with 3 earth can cast it .

if you have only flaming arrows even when meeleeing the archers the friendly fire casualities will be very high.
you would need to get about 50-60 damage against a vq in friendly dominion at least .
given the not too frightening looking avg. damage of "only" 0.570 and 0.321 it seems to me if you don't have hyperlarge amounts of 100+ x-bows you have still bad odds defeating even an almost unequipped vq .

if the army is really e.g. 200 x-bows than i of course wouldn't attack with a vq only .

or maybe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif
when you face only weak opposition the ai overrides your gem costing battle scripts .
so 1 unit against 100+ should be weak opposition .
so normally the ai should override the use of wind guide + flaming arrows shouldn't it ?

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm perhaps . did the vq have only lifedrain or soul vortex too ?

iirc there was some time ago a thread where ppl said that with the life drain attack of ghosts something is wrong.
because lifedrain of the ghosts is the basic attack and for the unequipped vq too then when it seems to be buggy in the ghosts it could be with the vq too.

would require lots of testing unfortunately :
test unequipped life drain attack
test wraith sword etc. life drain
test soul vortex
test soul vortex cast via items

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes but are you assuming that one round is going to kill the SC ? I mean, how do you even propose to get an SC completely surrounded by maenads before anyone strikes a blow ? Flight ?

If you don't, see the next comment...
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It doesn't really replenish. That is, I have observed that it can take you above the hp you started with. So the first few little guys that rush in will actually make the life drainer stronger.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I haven't looked at the statistics but mass wind guided flaming crossbows, even one or the other, are quite effective in my experience. Obviously it depends a bit on the SC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So now we are assuming that there is someone else there to hold the SoS, right ? I mean, we have to add that, right, since he wouldn't be wielding it himself, if he was a melee SC. Of course, once we start adding things, you can't count on anything. What if he has phoenix pyre on ? What if he brings along a couple of cheap troops (like vamps with the VQ you used in the example) so he isn't easily surrounded ? What if he has more than 50-100 hp ? What about his innate aura, like breath of winter, chill, what not ?

I mean, it certainly can work...and it's something you could do if the situation arose but having it as your start strategy and planning your research around it...well, I haven't tried it so let me know how it goes in play ?

- Kel

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, they can hit you during buffing, and they can hit you once you start to attack as well.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It definetly doesn't ensure that you survive. Crossbows can take down 30 protection SC's by themselves, and those are only 10 damage.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are placing too much emphasis on the average damage. From experience I know that armour piercing weapons with even low damage can get through 30 protection enough times to kill a SC.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The AI is willing to use gems against single powerful opponents.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I saw those battles. You're imagining things. What actually happened was that some of your regular Ulmish infantries got in the way and became snackfood, thus providing the HP boost needed to keep it alive just a bit longer. The times when the Ulmish infantry didn't get in the way, she didn't heal except by innate regen.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

actually norfleet, my iron dragon got there long before my regular troops did, and she was gaining hp from it. By the time the reg troops got there, normal and mechanical she already had more hp than she started with.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah i will tell you .
unfortunately this will be in 2-3 months when i try these strats in my new mp games .

this is one main reason why i put this thread up http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif . you can't test against the ai . i am no fan of sandboxing so far too this takes long and is boring .

so i tried to develop some strats and i put them here on the Boards that hopefully experts like you who have long mp expierience tell me if it is worth trying or not http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
i am now in 5 mp games since my now 2 months of owning dominions .
no one is even finished yet .
only in the newest one , started 4 days ago i am so far quite content with my pretender and have some plans .
but in the first 4 ones i just took pretenders from sp and had no clue about battle magic and the deeper concepts of sc design just sp expierience and relied there on mass summoning high end conjuration units and clamhoard and wish .

thats viable sp strategy and funny there but dominions 2 really shines in mp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif .
if i intend to do something like that in mp without serious plans for early - midgame and crappy pretenders i am dead on turn 10-30 , depending on my neighbors and so on .


if i test all the things out which i have in mind at the moment i would have to play 50 mp games which is simply impossible http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

so far i am really content with how the thread developed . got lots of valueable information thank you all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You are placing too much emphasis on the average damage. From experience I know that armour piercing weapons with even low damage can get through 30 protection enough times to kill a SC.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx to share your expierience . unfortunately i haven't enough yet after about 1 months of mp .
so these statistics are so far the best thing to check if things perhaps work or not .

do you remember too how many x-bows you would say are enough to kill a sc ?

furthermore the standard ap x-bow attack there almost 90% of the hits will be ignored through luck + etheral by the vq right ?
so the dangerous thing is the 2nd flame weapon attack . there only 50% will be ignored through luck .

with my current buffing normally it takes 3 turns . so the vq will be x-bowed 2 times when still standing rearmost . then she has 1 turn to attack without being targeted . there she should be able to replenish the lifeloss suffered through the rare hits on high distance .
then she is hit with full force that is the crucial part where she can get killed ihmo .
if she survives that she has 2 turns to resuck hps before the next salve .

so how many x-bows a single vq can dare to attack what would you say from expierience ?

thnx for sharing your expierience in advance http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't remember, as it's been a very long time since I came up against a Marignon player, and Black Forest Ulm tends to do the missile thing itself.

However, 150 longdead archers has a good chance of wiping out just about any small force sent against it.

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Test them in blitz games. One night.

- Kel

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't remember, as it's been a very long time since I came up against a Marignon player, and Black Forest Ulm tends to do the missile thing itself.

However, 150 longdead archers has a good chance of wiping out just about any small force sent against it. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you mean those banefire archers ?
you have to pay 75 death gems for them so you can expect some RoI i would say http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Test them in blitz games. One night.

- Kel </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah but unfortunately i am a slow player .
kind of perfectionist there .
so it is no longer a blitz game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif if i need 20 minutes scripting around in midgame .
and i mainly want to test out lategame things so blitz is not too useful i think http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So test out the things you can. you can certainly test out crossbows vs. SCs, for example.

- Kel

Re: common high end sc protection/defense values ? possible defeat with common troops ?
 

ok as promised my first attempt to provide a cheap sc kill idea :

my initial idea was a cheap fire 10 bless with vanheim . but because strength is not added to the 8 ap fire attack a protection of 20+ will be enough to decrease damage suffered by fire bless attack hits to mere 1.29 avg damage at protection 20 and ridiculous 0.321 avg damage for a protection of 30 .

so next attempt http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif :
take pangenea or vanheim or ulm . rush to con 7 .
i describe the tactic for pangenea in the following . it is really simple :

when you reach con 7 you should have gotten 1 lucky pan with an earth random pick meanwhile + found at least 1 site with earth gem income .

hopefully you can forge him earth boots .
so he has earth 4 then .

you should have dozens - hundreds of maenads then . mix a few minotaurs or centaurs in them .
a mintaur has strenght 16 + battle axe damage 9 = 25 .
now you simply cast weapons of sharpness on them .
maenads are size 2 so they swarm the sc and the minotaurs get hopefully as late attackers later attacks . if the minotaur is e.g. the 11th attacker the defense of the sc will be lowered 10 points , if he is the 21th 20 points .
so he will quite likely land a few hits .

because of weapons of sharpness even against protection 40 ( that is the cap right ? ) the minotaur will do 5.57 avg damage .

against protection 30 which is more common he does 10.13 avg damage .

btw the maenads do 0.570 avg damage against protection 30 .

so with a bit luck you should inflict at least 50 more likely 100 damage in one combat round .
the costs are extremely cheap only some hundred gold for the pan + minotaurs and 10 earth gems for boots of earth + 1 earth gem per weapons of sharpness cast .

only reliable counter which comes to my mind so far is casting blood venegance on your sc .