Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

It seemed like such a neat idea, what went so wrong with Return of the Raptors?

Well, several things. Weak, expensive priests; no sacred troops at all (losing the pretty good sacred troop that base Caelum had); non-cold-resistant troops in a nation that still economically wants cold-3; weaker, more expensive mages for a nation that lives and dies by its magic.

It's obvious that Return of the Raptors is in need of serious help.

I suggest these changes:
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• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Reduce the cost of the Seraph to 110 (compared to base Caelum's 100 and not capitol only), and increase the cost of the Harab Seraph to 140, but add priest-2 and sacred to the Harab in exchange for the cost increase. This makes him a good researcher and makes RotR not pay quite such a heavy premium for preaching. You still won't see a lot of Seraphs at 110 because they are capitol only in RotR - and with upkeep, inferior to the now-sacred Harab Seraph for research.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Raise the Harab Elder's priest skill to 3 so it remains stronger than the Harab Seraph (and gives them Fanaticism potential - important for a nation that often attacks behind enemy lines where retreat is death). Also, change his magic from the current 3 Air, 1 Earth, 2 Death to 2 Air, 1 Water, 1 Earth, 2 Death, 1 Random (giving him 7 magic picks total, tied with the Spring&Autumn Celestial Masters - which are about the same cost and also fly). He already costs 270, which seems about right for the new HE considering Caelum's mages are traditionally cheap for their abilities to compensate for the nation's other weaknesses. The Harab Elders should be a force to be reckoned with - remember, you're giving up the High Seraph, one of the best mages in the game (and a mere 175 gold), to get them. The "new" HE could have level 3 in Air or Death and level 2 in Water or Earth, giving a player with several Harab Elders a variety of forging, ritual, and site searching options, as well as being a presence on the battlefield. But unlike the big mages of many other nations (including base Caelum), a favorable random can't give them 4 in anything. Basically they'd be the Norn of RotR (as the Harab Seraph is its Seithkona).</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Raven Guard are pathetic. 17 gold 18 resources (and let's not forget the double supply) for an "elite" troop with 11 attack, 10 defense, 11 protection? Their sword and dagger are at least as deadly to them as to their enemies - weak armor and no shield is a recipe for disaster unless you have *really* good defense, and short weapons with a mediocre morale of 12 doesn't help either. I doubt if they could go 1-for-1 with falchioneers, satyr hoplites or einherjar, let alone *real* elites like emerald guards, guardians, heart companions, wardens, or Daoine Sidhe. (And I'm not even mentioning the cavalry.) It doesn't seem reasonable for them to carry heavy armor since they fly, but why not give them some real skill? Most units of that cost have at least 11-12 base attack and defense - especially if their equipment is so weak. Better yet, why not make them sacred for 30 gold? They'll at least have good morale when blessed, and the player can choose other ways to make them good (note that with the above suggestions, RotR's priests will be slightly less horrible). A reasonably priced (though not that formidable) sacred flyer recruitable anywhere would be an interesting and unusual edge for the theme to have. Also, if the Harab Seraph is now a priest, making the Raven Guard sacred would make all the black-winged Raptors sacred, which helps unify the theme.</font>
• <font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Maximum cold-2 for the theme (analogous to Blood of Humans). This is a serious limitation (it costs them points to hurt them economically, see the BoH threads for further analysis of this point), but I'm giving them some nice other toys. Also, less cold actually *helps* the raptors, which is thematic. And it makes the theme feel and play more differently from standard Caelum.</font>

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As it stands now, RotR is clearly magically weaker than base Caelum - no randoms, two paths they can't get more than 1 in without empowerment including 40% of their base gem income, and even those dumbed-down mages are *more* expensive than base Caelum's - and their priests are probably the worst of any theme in the game (270 gold for a Holy-2 priest - ok, he's also a pretty good mage, but in terms of priest power for your money, awful).

It seems that they should compensate with military might to rival Ulm's - but instead they have the same subpar military as base Caelum, possibly even worse (giving up the temple guard for the unimpressive Raven Guard and the crappy Raptor). And their climate still works against indies and mercs.

I think the above suggestions would make the theme fit together better (all the black wings are sacred, less cold so the non-cold-resistant troops can tolerate it, HEs can use any of the theme's magic paths) and, more importantly, bring it closer to a competitive level (flying sacred troops are often worthy of consideration, priests recruitable everywhere help them not lose dominion battles as badly, and a 7-pick mage is often an asset even at high costs).

I've put together a mod with all the above except the cold restriction (which can't currently be modded), but I don't have a place to host it. If there is any interest I will submit it to Illwinter or see if I can get it hosted somewhere.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

I agree with many suggestions, particularly about raven guard, but there are really some themes in worse need. There is basicly no reason to take Barbarian Kings at the moment, and serious disadvantages. Serpent Cult is a pale shadow of basic Pythium. Raptor theme is not that bad, just a theme of one of the most high-powered nations.

[ July 29, 2004, 06:06: Message edited by: quantum_mechani ]

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">At least they're affordable. Beats the Iceclads and Temple Guards, whose resource costs make them nigh-unaffordable.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Caelum still prefers Cold-3 anyway, just as BoH prefers Heat-3 nonetheless: You just suffer the penalty of being one scale off in addition to losing out in the points. You want to harm the theme economically even MORE, while it already sucks now? You're out of your mind.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeah, Raptor Caelum is by far the most religiously awful nation in the game: You have NO priest recruitable outside your capitol whatsoever, and your ONLY priest is a measly holy-2. Even Ulm can outpreach you, and that's just sad.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Well, they still retain both the excellent Archers, and Mammoth/Wingless combo. That can stomp an Ulmish army easily enough. Also, the inability to even *TAKE* Heart of Winter means that your climate is not actually going to work that strongly against Indies/Mercs. In practice, Raptor's pitiful priestly ability combined with inability to strongly force Cold means that your territory, especially at the edges where you actually fight, will often not even be in your dominion strongly, so will NOT actually be Cold-3, where you suffer the actual penalty.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Actually, the cold preferences of Caelum *CAN* be modded. This was done back when Caelum was bugged and preferred heat-3 instead of cold-3, and so Catquiet publicized his "Cold Caelum Mod" fixing this.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Raptor Caelum is Pretty Awful. The only reason it doesn't get very much love and attention right now is because Caelum is already a strong nation and the fact that one of its themes suck cannot necessarily be viewed as an immense drawback: If somebody wants to play it as a handicap, the option is there.

Serpent Cult is "Meh". It's not the most awful thing there is, but it doesn't stack up to stock Pythium. That's not a huge problem, for the same reason, though: Pythium is already a very strong nation.

TC, on the other hand, is a marginal nation in any theme, and BK does nothing to alleviate this condition. The entire nation could probably use some love.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why do people want priestly power on their mages at all? Why do people want powerful priests at all really? Being sacred is good. Being a priest and a mage is not, since you pay more for abilities you can't use at the same time and less power on the battlefield.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

The obvious use for powerful priests is to cast Fanaticism.

However, I hate mixed mage/priests. They drive me up the wall. It's basically just a way of making the mage more expensive.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, buy one for the price of two, and get one free!

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

Chris: We would be glad to post your mod.

All: agreed, raptor theme is rather weak, as is BK.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

Well,

I'm certainly no expert but I just saw the Caelum Raptor theme absolutely dominate a 15(?) player game on Mosehansen. Maltrease won the game by a HUGE margin - it was never really in doubt after about turn 35 or so I would say. The theme can't be _that_ bad. Caelum is pretty good anyway.

John

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

Thanks for the compliment, but that was base Caelium not Raptors.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Heh - it's basically just a way of making the mage *less* expensive - half maintainance is nothing to get upset about. And Fanatacism is a nice option for a mage/priest on the verge of unconciousness...

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Why do people want priestly power on their mages at all? Why do people want powerful priests at all really? Being sacred is good. Being a priest and a mage is not, since you pay more for abilities you can't use at the same time and less power on the battlefield. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's not necessarily that I want priest power on a mage, as that I want it on *something*. A Black Seraphine, or keeping the regular Seraphine, would have been fine, and if it had already existed in the theme I probably wouldn't have messed with priest levels at all. Or I suppose along with making the Raven Guard sacred, I could have added a Raven Champion priest commander (adding new units is a lot more work than changing the stats of existing ones, though - I want to try the present minor tweaks before I jump into adding new units, if it's even possible to add new units that are specific to a theme in the current Dom2 Version). But any nation needs some priests, especially one whose weapons melt in average temperatures.

However, I don't think priest-mages are *that* expensive, in general. Keep in mind that if you buy a priest and a mage separately, you pay full upkeep on the mage; and that you often don't need two priest-mages to do everything you could do with one priest and one mage (because you can't always find a good use for both of them every turn). Of course, some are very expensive - but I will point out that the Grand Master, Arch Theurg, Celestial Master and Harab Elder all cost the same or less upkeep than a Crone or Norn, despite their high recruiting costs. (The Sauromancer and High Seraph are a little less, but they are unusually cheap for their power - a trait not originally shared by the RotR harabs.)

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

[quote]Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

Quote:

Why do people want priestly power on their mages at all? Why do people want powerful priests at all really? Being sacred is good. Being a priest and a mage is not, since you pay more for abilities you can't use at the same time and less power on the battlefield.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Think back to when you were playing Serpent Cult Pythium in the Twilight of Magic PBEM. All those priestly mages you had researching were able to stop researching and recall your Wyrm in just one turn pretty much every time.

There's no way you would have recruited 20 or so priests who didn't have spell casting, forging, and research ability.

IMM, that's one very good reason to love priest mages : you have the priests when you need them.

Also, when you run into an undead province, banishment is often more effective than mage spells, at least early to mid game. Again - those mages having priest abilities comes in handy.

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

a funny unit idea comes to my mind i want to share :

since caelum RotR is thematically about death and the Raptors are according to description fierce and fanatic warriors what about adding a suicide unit ?

would be hard to balance but extremely funny .

since dominions is fantasy you don't need to care about ethics . this is a game not rl.

so in the unit description should stand :
"Raptors don't care much about weak ones .
They believe in the false faith that only useful raptors may life . those which have not proven their skill in combat or magic at the age of 20 years are sacrificed .
in times of need the harabs curse them with various foul rituals . now the sole purpose in the life of these cursed ones is to "kamikaze" on the enemies of the raptors. "

these cursed units fly into the enemy and then explode .
there are 2 Versions :
the air one explodes in a lighning nova .
the death one explodes and spreads desease on area ( game technical : mr easily negates , by hit : decay ) .
the killed death Version suicide raptor revives than as soulless for the rest of the battle . if he survives the battle he still disappears ( like with reanimate ) .

suicide units would be really fun and fit very well in a fantasy game like dominions .

although they were totally imbalanced ( too weak ) in age of wonders + aow 2 ( sm )
the goblin suicide bombers there were really funny http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

already done. Exploding amulet.
Everyone can use it by casting Call of the Winds and assiging the bid-troops to someone else so you can use the leaer bird as a kamikazi

Re: Fix This Theme: Return of the Raptors
 

I´m willing to take this kind of nations on MP. I saw Knudsen play with BF Ulm in a game and he did extremely well. (I won that game with Rlieh taking order 3 and luck 1 (why I did this?)).