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Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
I'm looking into possibilities to strenghten S&A and make it a tad faster to start, and maybe reduce the MM a bit
So far, I have identified the following problems: 1) you start with Turmoil-1, but your better mages are rather expensive 2) your only standard commander is a chariot, leader/gold ratio is even worse, and they tend to get swarmed as soon as they start to trample the enemy. Even worse, one of T'Cs strength are archers and Fire Demons: Hits on any chariot moving through enemies ranks 100% guaranteed. 3) Heavenly Demons are a great asset, but cost too much mage-time, especially the Fire Demons which need either a Celestial Master or a very lucky Master Of The Way with fire-1 from random .. 4) Low-Level Astral Skills makes your mages Duel-fodder. Again you have to hope for a lucky draw on a Master Of Five Elements to get somewhat decent battle magic. 5) .. all those "lucky draws" mean you are spending time/turns and gold on buying mages, of which only 1/5 or so are really usable. And those are always the Last to show up. 6) While the starting gem income from the Sping and Autumn Gate is quite nice (1 fire, 2 water, 1 astral, 1 death), it's barely enough to let you summon 1 Demon/turn, and 15 spirits/4 turns (which need exactly 1 fight to get whacked). Thus you'll start conquering the world at turn 4 with 15 spirits and 2 river/fire demons each .. even when boosted with all the archers and medium inf you can afford it's just enough against Lvl-7 indies. And there isn't much one can do about it: </font>
Only after some time it dawned to me, that simplest solution would be to add a site to the T'C starting prov which gives additional fire gems, which could either be used for a)speeding up the summoning, b) forging some items or c) conVersion to gold. Looking through the list I found the Alchemists Guild, which seems to fit quite nice (1 earth, 1 fire). Even the alchemists IMHO is "in theme" for the feudal S&A, with magic, superstition and turmoil all across the land. What do you think - would S&A be over-powered this way ? |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
don't change tien chi s&a they are already good .
i wouldn't use my nobles first frontline . they just get killed . you need to gamble furthermore . scales : turmoil 3 , sloth 3 , cold 3 , death 3 , magic 3 , luck 3 . castle : watch tower pretender : vq this way you can e.g. take : a3 , w 2 , e3 , d6 , b3 dominion 8 the vq either takes 1 prov / turn from turn 5 on or 1 prov / 2 turns + sitesearch the prov . with these picks she finds something like 50% . if you just build the archers + give them a few water / fire demons they can take out the weaker indeps and at least conquer 1 province every 2 turns to from turn 5 on . the luck is really a big gamble but you will quite often get the needed + gold just when you need it . and if you get a +water or +fire gems event in the first 5 turns that are some additional fire / water demons . you are somewhat dependent from luck but with turmoil 3 + luck 3 you get really many events and most are good . if you need money you can even pillage a province since you only need money for your mages and almost not for national troops . sure with these "horror" scales you have something about 1/3 of the income of one with order 3 productivity 3 growths 3 but in early game luck compensates . lategame you have only to spend money on temples , castles + mages . with magic 3 you research fast enough and should manage a top 5 position in research at least . so what not to like ? you even can bloodhunt with your random blood picks . if you take water 3 on your vq she can summon : ice devils and vampire lords . if you don't get early some lucky random blood picks don't research blood but conjuration . with d6 your vq needs only 1 empower item to summon tartarians and can summon the whole rest without empower . you can lower d6 on your vq to d4 or 5 and instead take water 3 + earth 4 . that way you can focus on blood heavyly and summon father illearth , vampire lords , the ice devils . so construction , blood and/or conjuration are key areas . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
luck is always a issue .
with tien chi you are most luck dependant . but because of luck 3 you have at least some control . there are many factors though for which no nation has control . i list some : -starting location (center,edges...) -neighbors -indep province guards -population of neighbors -site search ( expect accashic ) -resources of neighbors -landscape of neighbor provinces ( strat movement for nonflying ) if e.g. ermor starts in the center it is bad for ermor and his neighbors . ermor will spread his dominion to a larger area than starting in an edgeposition and have more neighbors to deal with . so more provinces will be corrupted but ermor will have to deal with more attackers early . if you are dependant on blood randomness can be a pain and a bless . scenario 1 : abysia has 5 neighbors : 2 rich 20k+ farmlands 3 poor mountains 5-10k population so 2 incomegenerating + 3 blood hunt provinces . ideal scenario 2 : 1 rich farmland but guarded by knights + xbows or special monsters like gargoyles ... 1 5-10k rich mountain 3 0-4k swamps / forests . 1 hard to take province , only 1 adept for blood hunting and 3 rather worthless sites . so very punishing starting conditions for abysia . so the only difference is that you have to rely on luck even a bit more with tien chi but you have at least some control by taking luck 3 . you are only 20-30% more luck dependant than everyone else . if you look at the opposing scenario : you take or are forced to take misfortune 1-3 . often you are lucky and get no too bad events in the first 10-15 turns where they harm you most . but if you get blown up your temple / lab on turn 2 via misfortune event or the plague event which kills 50% population in your capitol you are really handicapped . edit : lol caine you were faster with the same thoughts although i guess i started writing mine earlier lol http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif [ July 29, 2004, 13:08: Message edited by: Boron ] |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
I really don't think S&A need a boost, at least not as a priority. I quite enjoy them as is and would worry that they would get broken with increased power. I certainly think Tien BK is more in need of tweakage.
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Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
As a newbie, I'm speaking out of school here, but I just can't help myself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
One question out of the box: what does 'MM' mean? Quote:
It seems to me that the design intent of Tien AS is to be the best, of the mage oriented races/themes. I started my first SP game w/ TC after reading Zen's guide on the race (on Sunray's now locked site), and aesthetically it made it look like the kind setup I'd most enjoy in Dom 2. If S&A were successfully implemented, I'd expect that in an MP game where no one gets screwed in the opening turns and the players are roughly equal, that S&A would be at a slight disadvantage in taking indies, and at a significant advantage in acquiring gem income and developing large numbers of useful mages. Quote:
I don't have enough Dom2 game experience to pronounce a solution to adjusting S&A, but I would certainly like to see this theme be tweaked to the extent that it is a reasonable choice, oft taken and (reasonably) oft won with in MP play. Also, I'd say that a successful tweakage of S&A would mean that good play with this position was less SC dependent, and more mage dependent than others. I imagine that good play with S&A would probably require clever scripting with large numbers of CMs. One ingredient of a well implemented S&A theme should include Heavenly Demons that are useful in MP play, at least into midgame. Arralen, based on your post, I think we should be asking for the following code level fixes in an upcoming patch (would 2.13 be optimistic? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) 1) Increase accuracy of Demons of Heavenly Fire? I certainly have noticed their inaccuracy in SP play, and I'd think that would be crippling in MP play. 2) Increase the number of Demons of Heavenly River per summoning - perhaps with increased gem cost? It might be reasonable to do the same for DHF, as well. Also, CMs must be viable in a well implemented S&A, but so far, I can't say that this is not the case. In SP play at least, the odds that my CMs get either a second air (giving them lightning bolt), or an earth pick (giving magma bolt) out of their impressive two randoms, are pretty good. Together with boosting items, it to me that CMs are viable as is, though I'd defer to those with more experience. As to their expense, it would seem to me reasonable that S&A must face a difficult choice of paying for their very valuable mages, and never having enough mundane troops (especially in the opening game). One thing I've been wondering - would it be reasonable for Mot5E to be recruitable in non-capital provinces? I understand Arralen you are suggesting a fix via mod, but I'd guess I'd like to see S&A tweaked in a patch, in which case doing code level patches for the celestial demons becomes an option. I would have to guess that these are easy code changes to make, and if there were broad agreement, I'd imagine we could get these into a patch. I would also say that adding to S&A's gem income goes in the wrong direction. S&A can start it's clam hoarding earlier and easier than any other nation. On top of that, with a combination of a CM plus Mot5E, it gets a broad search team very easily, so should find it easier to search for sites than other nations. All in all, I expect that S&A would tend to be more gem rich than any other nation, as is. All that said, Arralen, if you produce a mod that strengthens S&A (my favorite theme http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ), I'll be more than happy to try it out! [ July 29, 2004, 16:56: Message edited by: Thufir ] |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
[quote]Originally posted by Thufir:
One question out of the box: what does 'MM' mean? Micromanagement. [quote]I can't argue against BK being more in need of tweakage, but I am still inclined to think that Tien S&A could be better than it is (without being unbalanced). From my rather limited experience, I would have to guess that few people are winning MP games with S&A - am I wrong? Winning SP games has a lot more to do with starting position and diplomacy than it does with strength of theme. It seems to me that the design intent of Tien AS is to be the best, of the mage oriented races/themes. I started my first SP game w/ TC after reading Zen's guide on the race (on Sunray's now locked site), and aesthetically it made it look like the kind setup I'd most enjoy in Dom 2. IMO, the design intent of S&A is to reflect in Dominions terms a particular period of Chinese history - and to be different in game feel from standard T'ien Ch'i If S&A were successfully implemented, I'd expect that in an MP game where no one gets screwed in the opening turns and the players are roughly equal, that S&A would be at a slight disadvantage in taking indies, and at a significant advantage in acquiring gem income and developing large numbers of useful mages. Then by your definition S&A is already succesfully implemented. Quote:
Boron's approach takes what may be a slightly underpowered theme and makes it completely unplayable. Its income will be so awful that it won't be able to take advantage of the superb S&A Celestial Masters, effectively reducing the entire nation to a single unit - not a winning strategy for any for any nation, as I'm surprised Cainehill didn't understand. 1) Increase accuracy of Demons of Heavenly Fire? I certainly have noticed their inaccuracy in SP play, and I'd think that would be crippling in MP play. You should be increasing their accuracy yourself, using Aim and/or Wind Guide. 2) Increase the number of Demons of Heavenly River per summoning - perhaps with increased gem cost? It might be reasonable to do the same for DHF, as well. Not unreasonable, although S&A well played can field quite respectable numbers of demons as it stands. One thing I've been wondering - would it be reasonable for Mot5E to be recruitable in non-capital provinces? Not from a thematic viewpoint, IMO. I would also say that adding to S&A's gem income goes in the wrong direction. S&A can start it's clam hoarding earlier and easier than any other nation. On top of that, with a combination of a CM plus Mot5E, it gets a broad search team very easily, so should find it easier to search for sites than other nations. All in all, I expect that S&A would tend to be more gem rich than any other nation, as is. Good points. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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Boron's approach takes what may be a slightly underpowered theme and makes it completely unplayable. Its income will be so awful that it won't be able to take advantage of the superb S&A Celestial Masters, effectively reducing the entire nation to a single unit - not a winning strategy for any for any nation, as I'm surprised Cainehill didn't understand. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">why are you so sure that this doesn't work ? the income is crappy but enough to get 1 celestial master per turn after turn 4-5 . he is capitol only anyways. you are somehow dependant from luck but it works well often . you can pillage a rich province with the dispossed spirits early on to get money . you are going to be the magical powerhouse mid-lategame . expansion is still good enough with vq + 2nd small archer army . as i described very detailed the vq gives you the ability to summon quite a lot . with magic 3 you are one of the fastest researches . if you are in danger early or fear it you can research cloud trapeze and interupt the main army with your vq . i simply don't see why building few troops but focussing on a strong pretender and as quick as possible strong summons isn't viable . if you really don't like my turmoil 3 you can change to order 3 , that makes -240 points but you have still a decent vq then . with tien chi you just have a really superior vq . or your preferred other sc pretender . but so far i love vq most . edit : if you can give me real evidence and not only claiming that doesn't work perhaps i change my view . but so far you only made assertions and didn't backup them by arguments. You have about 1/3 income but you need not as many as with other nations . together with luck this really compensates until midgame and then almost all national troops are only fodder nothing else . due to your superior gem income you will have then you can get lots of magical fodder instead . simply because my playstyle seems to differ greatly from yours saying this doesn't work is arrogant . [ July 29, 2004, 19:33: Message edited by: Boron ] |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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here you totally agree but say my playstile is broken . so you already disproved your own claim . and why don't you grant tien chi good access to clams ? as a side note : ryleh + atlantis are surely superior clamhorders than tien chi i think most ppl will agree there with me . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
The only words I uttered in the quotation posted below that was attributed entirely to me were "Good points".
Your strategy may aim at becoming the magic superhouse - but if so, having 1/3 the income and therefore 1/3 the mages that most nations have is the wrong way to go about it. I didn't totaly agree with anything you said - I agreed that Thufir made some good points regarding S&A in general, and specifically in regard to whether adding gems to its capital is a good way to go about improving the theme. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
But you _can't_ switch to Order-3 with S&A. It requires Turmoil-1 or greater.
If S&A is weak, it is probably (IMO) a symptom of order still being worth more than its point cost, and order needs to be nerfed again; or turmoil is too risky because of catastrophic events even with a strong luck scale, and more catastrophes need to require luck 0 or less, 1 or less, 2 or less. (It is of course still possible for the followers of a lucky god to be struck by catastrophes - but only by the active malevolence of a hostile god or his people, not by chance which is ruled by their own god.) Their military isn't that much worse than base TC, and their mages are better, plus they have the demon summons. BK has the same problem - required turmoil - plus their units can't work the way they are supposed to (hit and run splits up your army and strands many units without commanders, pillaging enemy territory is too slow and you risk losing a lot more gold than you gain if your raid force is caught; worse, if you're raiding while other nations are taking and holding, you'll be weaker in the long term). |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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i said you only have 1/3 income but you can compensate by ignoring national troops + luck 3 events in early - midgame . ulm e.g. may have triple income but a big part of that goes on national units like black knights . furthermore you have watch tower or mausoleum . so you save 150 gold for each castle compared to ulm which most likely choses the 40 admin 450 gold castle. 3rd you don't need to invest in pd . 4th : you most likely get your first +500 or +1000 gold event in the first 5 turns . with a vq + really few archers + 1 or 2 celestial masters using fire flies and the like you still can expand 2 provinces / turn . once you have 10 provinces you have enough income to save a bit for castling + build 1 sage + 1 celestial master per turn . before you still can build 1 celestial master or 1 master of the elements each turn after turn 5 and from turn 1-5 if you are unlucky with lucky gold events you buy a master of the dead . you need 1-2 of them anyways for the dispossed spirits . so again why is the bad economy really so bad ? and the additional troops your enemies can build in early game with the more money you normally can counter by your vq . after early game you counter your low income by your superior gem income . if you don't have very special tactics to enchance your national troops in midgame they become less and less important and late game they are almost worthless expect as fodder . a few "tricks" like weapons of sharpness can extend the usefulness of national troops but these spells are even more useful on summons . and given the few nations which have good access to these special spells and how expensive they are the success is doubtable . the only spells which make national troops still useful in lategame are really : weapons of sharpness and wind guide / flaming arrows . but they are not useful on national troops only : weapons of sharpness cast on summons is much scarier than used on national troops . a exemption to this is of course jotunheim but they are special . and there are no rules without exemptions . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
Spring and Autumn and Barbarian Kings both need a couple new units imo; which would hopefully give them the power they need.
I started to make a S&A unit mod but wasn't sure how to extract animations exactly, and using screenshots is ineffective. I play Tien Chi rather often, so i do have perhaps a bit of self-interest in these sorts of improvements. S&A needs a 'philosopher-poet-general' unit and a 'Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon' swordsman, sort of a buildable Lu Tung-Pin. However i can't think of how to make either one really unique without the ability to make new abilities. The Poet-General might have +30 defense/+30 seige? Since its already been done it sounds a bit dull, but i can't think of another way of really differentiating 'military skill'. The Hidden-Jedi could be just a weaker Version of the hero - 1e, 1w, 1a, 2random, high attack and defense, flying, no armor. Barbarian Kings needs a Marco Polo styled sea-fearing leader, an elite sacred horse archer (the only sacred archer), and maybe the ability to Capture Slaves similar to Mictlan. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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i love the slaves idea . perhaps bk should get the ability to capture slaves by pillaging . these slaves can than either be converted to blood slaves or sold to slave traders for gold . for these special slaves 1-2 minor demon summons could be added like with tien chi s&a . the slaves could be sold for 5 gold each or converted to blood slaves at a ratio of either 3/4/5 : 1 . like SelfishGene said a strong horse archer with melee skills needs to be added . there is already a horse archer with melee skill but unfortunately he is a poor copy of what the mongols & huns really were . so the blessable archer idea is cool . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
[quote]Originally posted by Chris Byler:
But you _can't_ switch to Order-3 with S&A. It requires Turmoil-1 or greater. Right. But you certainly don't have to take turmoil 3, sloth 3, cold 3, death 3 and an almost-no-admin castle just to dump all those points into a VQ. Try it. Fire it up. When I did, the income of my capital was 89. And that will be decreasing each turn. (shudders) The idea that you can afford a 250 gold Celestial Master every turn from turn 4 or 5 on is ludicrous with such a setup, unless you are counting on massive amounts of income from the turmoil 3/luck 3 combo - and that is wishful thinking from the tests I've made. As Cainehill rightly pointed out, you're just as likely to lose your temple on turn 2 with that setup - and then how long will it be before you recruit a single CM? If S&A is weak, it is probably (IMO) a symptom of order still being worth more than its point cost, and order needs to be nerfed again; or turmoil is too risky because of catastrophic events even with a strong luck scale, and more catastrophes need to require luck 0 or less, 1 or less, 2 or less. (It is of course still possible for the followers of a lucky god to be struck by catastrophes - but only by the active malevolence of a hostile god or his people, not by chance which is ruled by their own god.) Their military isn't that much worse than base TC, and their mages are better, plus they have the demon summons. Order is certainly still the most valuable scale, as it has the most effect on income, as well as acting as a buffer against catastrophe. But I don't think the fact that order is the most valuable scale makes the turmoil races unplayable. But neither do I think that having to take some turmoil is a good reason to savage your economy completely. I apparently rate the Imperial troops more highly than you do. The loss of them does make me think of the S&A military as being much worse than that of the standard theme. But I think that is compensated by the mages. I agree that the S&A mages are better - some of the best in the game - which is why I would prefer to have enough gold to recruit some http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif While the demons are nice, it isn't clear to me that they are better than the Celestial Soldiers available to base TC. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
I agree with Boron that the theme is fine as is, it just takes some creativity to use it well. Unforunately I must admit that I am currently in an MP game playing Tien Chi S&A, and doing bad because of a bad starting location combined with tough indies. This is my fault however, and nothing to do with the theme.
Personallly I think the fire demons are lousy. I know there are some that disagree, but my experience is that the fire demons accuracy is so bad that they can only damage large enemy armies with lots of fodder, and there must be a 1000 other and better ways to obliterate an army like that. The river demons are much more useful, but not worth the gems, nor the time, which needs to be invested to summon them. The real strength of the theme are the flying celestial masters. Between all the great and creative dominions players we have, it would be easy to write up an entire strategy guide about this unit alone. If you worry about the celestrial masters being mind duel fodder, make an astral king pretender and put a flying item on it if it can't fly naturally. Script the pretender to do a couple of mind duels at the start of any battle where you expect enemy astral mages. /Rainbow |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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tien chis crap national units are rather a benefit than a curse http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif for indep smashing they are just enough but nothing more . so even if you don't like my horror scales at least taking death 3 sloth 3 is obvious . so you have an almost as strong pretender as ermor or pan cw but don't need to worry about banishment , dust to dust , wither bones and all the other good undead mass destroyers . celestial masters are just great . i would put in a top 5 national mages list with main focus on general usefulness the following : -demonbred -arch theurg -celestial master s&a -starspawn -mystic i should have extended it to top 10 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif i am not absolutely sure but i guess i would put the celestial master at least on number 3 more likely on number 2 or 1 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
One problem with the "Misfortune 3, Luck 3, Magic 3" plan is that the way Luck works, you're all too likely to lose your lab or temple in the first 10 turns (sometimes the first turn), or have a catastrophe wipe out 40% of your capital's population, etc.
If having a high luck was modified to at least protect against catastrophes in the first 5-10 turns, _then_ it might be viable. Also, I'm sure I'm not the only one who despises the concept that a theme is only going to be viable if you totally trash your scales and make an ungodly SC, especially a VQ. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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In addition - with death 3, Disorder 3, you're going to have a good amount of events killing population, plus a steady decrease of population. Guess what? When you run out of population in your capital, it's going to be hard to recruit there. Okay - you think to only recruit CMs there, 1 resource point, and even with 0 population you seem to still have 2 resource points. Still - it's going to be hard to have the income for it, especially as you have to rebuild temples and labs. Quote:
If you manage to get those 10+ provinces you talk about, thus allowing you to recruit some researchers and get a gem income going, you might do okay, but that's a big if. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
Whether Boron's strategy would work or not, to present it as an example of how S&A is a prefectly good theme seems silly to me. You can take terrible scales and a super-charged Pretender with any nation and any theme. So playing S&A this way is almost like playing no theme at all. Actually, it is worse than that, I think. Because there are other themes that actually reward you for having, say, a heavy cold scale, and thus are better at this sort of strategy than S&A is.
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Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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so with forced at least turmoil 1 scale your income is anyway very bad compared to others . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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so with forced at least turmoil 1 scale your income is anyway very bad compared to others . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">What? Tien Chi doesnt have the worst national troops!! The archers are great, the cav is decent, and even the footmen and pikemen are ok for their cost (nothing to write home about, but not utter crap). I dont see how you can say this. The scales you suggest are for Ermor. Only Ermor or maybe Pan CW can recruit researchers without money. If you have about 100 gold a turn, you can get a MotD every now and then, but you wont be able to recruit anything else, cant build temples or labs or forts, and have not a heck of a lot to research with or even make your summons or preach. Thus you will be purely vq-based and just have to hope that your dominion will be good enough to make sure she survives. Just sounds odd to me, not much like Tien Chi at all, sounds like Ermor without the theme and the undead. But I suppose the main question is: Is it fun?? |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
Originally posted by pinko commie:
" But I suppose the main question is: Is it fun?? " for you & your opponents Pickles |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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if you don't have to much bad luck in the beginning with negative events although you chose luck 3 it is fun imho . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
My experience with S+A has been quite different from the Boards. It rocks right out of the box.
I have had the most success going uber scales.... T1/P3/temp0/G3/L3/M1 citadel magicless nata. Sure you don't get sacred bonuses, but you don't need 'em. Your income, while not initally fabulous, is quite adequate, your nata is easily equipable (ice swords, etc) and/or disposable. If a nomagic nata with sacred mages makes you nervous, an Earth 4 nata works well, but them you have to be VERY careful with it. At least until the healing heroine arrives. The citadel keeps you off the early victim list in crowded conditions, and you can get a CM every turn after very mild expansion. And the spirits fodder are invaluable. I *do* think the S+A sacred troops need a boost, in terms of the number that can be summoned per mage turn. As it is they are not cost effective. Also, as a pet peeve, I'm not sure why the water spirits are *POOR* amphibians... They are elemental critters, I'd think they'd get a bonus in solution! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif The DoHW are actually more accessible, since a lucky MotW can summon them. The DoHF, while lovely in theory... are much too difficult to obtain. Rabe the S+A Fan http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
I think that Earth 4 Nataraja dying once, or even twice, is not earthbreaking. You can still cast Summon Earthpower and Invulnerability with E3 and 2, but the fatique you gets much higher.
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Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
I like S&A and I dont think that it needs improvement.
I had been quite succesful in SP games with following scales: Turmoil:1 Sloth:2 Temp:0 Growth:3 Luck:3 Magic:3 Watch Tower,Dominion 5. Ghost King 2W,3E,4D. My approach seems to be exactly in between Boron`s and Rabe`s http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Goal is to rely completely on summoned troops/battle mage armies as fast as possible. S&A seems to fit very well for such a tactic: -you have several nice starting summoning spells -you have extremely good site search abilities -you have very strong battle mages -you have good research right from the start,if you only recruit national mages,no troops. For initial expansion,I have my Ghost King SC,who, if played correctly,is very strong in conquering Indie provinces(indie strength 6 or 7),starting with it at turn 3. I didnt play a MP game with this yet though. I guess on a crowded map,I could have difficulties if I encounter a nation with strong national troops at the start,who is able to deal with my Breath of Winter Ghost King,e.g. Jotunheim,before I get my summonings rolling. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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but to your suggestions of worse troops : pangenea + ermor all themes have at least partially upkeep free freespawns / reanimations . ok not pangenea new age but pan standard has maenads . and their normal troops are pretty good , e.g. minotaurs , revelrers . if you mean with ermor be ermor they have principles + a kind of praetorian guard ( can't remember the name ) they have almost the same statistics as the pythium counterparts . finally mictlan : they seem to have bad troops too but slaves are almost for free and they should seek their glory in demons anyway . their sacred troops are not too bad . tien chi s&a has really only the archers + the footmen worth being recruited . but with their FORCED turmoil 1 if they want to compensate they need to invest 240 points to get the same income as any other nation who has totally flat scales . any other nation can take order 3 death 2-3 sloth 2-3 and has higher income than tien chi s&a can ever reach . but they have +40-120 points to spend on pretender while tien chi has to spend -240 points on economy scales . + additional -80 points by luck 1 and magic 1 forced by the theme . so only few points are left for pretender . if you want the ability to summon your first midgame summons without need for empower you need to take it on your pretender even with tien chi s&a . the highest you may ever get in fire or air with tien chi is 3 on a celestial master . but that only with 1/64 probability . expect coatl all summonable mages need at least 3 more likely 4 or 5 in one path . furthermore most path increasing items need a forge skill in the path of 3 . with your economy scales you can only reach a income similiar to flat scales . if my build is too extreme then take away cold 3 and turmoil 3 but keep sloth 3 and death 3 . still i have + 240 points from sloth + death this way and only about 20-30% lower income then you with the investment of 240 points for growth 3 + prod 3 . i have this way +480 points for only 20 - 30 % less income . s&a is really a special case there because i know no other theme / nation which forces you to take turmoil . with most other races i of course go too order 3 , death 2-3 and sloth 2-3 . but because order 3 is impossible with turmoil 1+ and to compensate by growth + productivity is too expensive imho i completely go ermorlike scales with them . if an early war breaks out i have at least a vq to scare some invaders off and you have no early game combat pretender . as i showed most other nations have about +400 extra points for sc pretender design compared to your scales rabe and tinktank . what troops do you use midgame then rabe ? if you find no independent good mages and because you have a 0 magic nataraja as you said your best bet for midgame is to hope for a air 3 celestial master ( 1/64 probability ) and forge 2 +1 air items for air queens . if man / vanheim participate they will have them earlier than you . so you have a really hard time to field any additional sc's . my vq instead has the ability to summon the whole death spectrum . if i midgame summon e.g. a wraithlord he can then summon the following bane lords + item forge . so please tell me rabe what magic troops can you field midgame to strengthen your armies ? really curious http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif i know i must have overlooked something with my assertions http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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my attempt is only a bit more radical but my "modest" suggestion with heat 0 and turmoil 1 is almost like your approach http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif we have exactly the same key opinions with tien chi s&a http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif -screw national troops almost 100% -rely for expansion on sc pretender mainly -use the sc to summon the first midgame mages -rely on summons , your sc pretender can summon a lot your ghostking can as my vq easily summon the whole bunch of death troops . only for wraith lords you need 1 empowerment ( cheap , 10 gems 2 handed death staff ) . only tartarians are a bit hard to achieve but wraith lords + bane lords are absolutely sufficient . thnx for sharing my viewpoint Mardagg http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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So,concerning your radical strat,I should be exactly in between yours and Rabe`s. Still,even with your modest suggestion,there are some more or less important differences between our approaches left : -Death:3 I go exactly for the opposite here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif If I plan to go for summonings and good research ,I dont want to play too agressively in MP. With Growth 3,I am able to adapt to every game situation and ,if necessary,to not expand for quite a while,just relying on good gem income/research. After all,my income increases,even when I dont expand. Also you have to keep in mind,that while certainly being on top in gem income and research with such a strat,you should not be on top in provinces,otherwise there will be quite likely an alliance formed against you....with Death:3 you will need quite a lot provinces to compensate,though. -VQ: You pay a lot for your VQ. Personally,I dont fear a strong VQ that much. With S&A,Imo,you only need a SC for early expansion and to scare away early opponents.The Ghost King will do this nearly as good as the VQ,even though you have to be more careful concerning battle afflictions,but you get much better scales and dont need that much a high dominion. Even worse,with VQ,high Dominion AND Death :3 ,you can be sure,that noone will like you,except maybe Ermor and CW-Pangaea. So,while both of us aim for strong high end summonings ,you most likely will be in wars early on and this will slow down you a lot http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Btw,for Tartarian Gate,Death 4 is enough. I always forge at least 1 Ring of Sorcery,expecially when I have Dwarfen Hammers,and this is enough for Tartarian Gate,together with the other Death enhancing items. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
thats true Mardagg that my scales will make me a bit unpopular .
ermor , pan cw , perhaps bf ulm ( forced to take death 1 ) and abysia ( no income loss due to death ) are really the only ones which come to my mind with deathscale . but all in all deathscale is not too evil even with death 3 on turn 50 only 26% of your population have died through deathscale . on the other hand you have +35% population by then . mid - lategame high growth doesn't prevent you from population mass kill spells though and bad events . there are simply no easy choices in dominions ( only really few ) . i have +240 points through death 3 and so can afford a vq so no problem if she dies earlygame . you have though better economy earlygame but midgame you become a good target for population mass kill spells at least in your 30k+ population provinces . my tien chi s&a is really quite similiar to ermor . only thing to pay upkeep for are mages and really FEW archers + footmen for earlygame expansion . normally luck 3 is just enough to have enough cash but not more . if i have really bad luck i still can either sell forged items to other players or pillage a province e.g. underwater provinces earlygame which i likely can't keep against ryleh anyways if it comes to a war . edit : if i take at least air 2 for my vq i have a nice advantage in early - midgame defense though because per cloud trapeze she can pick her battles so no need to guess moves . your ghostking is really nice but he lacks fly + regeneration + immortality 3 abilities i love with the vq . your ghostking shares 0 basic protection . so earlygame after buffresearch i can use my vq against every indeps even if she dies not too much is lost while you always have to either worry a bit with about 20% of the indy provinces . e.g. knights may be lucky and give you a nasty early game affliction . he could become feeble minded and your healing hero doesn't show up too . especially in these dangerous provinces though are often strong magic sites which tien chi needs so urgent . a Last thought : although my scales are so economic hostile i will have in defending battles some advantages : -cold 3 works in favour of my undead hordes -in low population provinces enemies with lots of troops are forced to either fight with starving or forge supply items your strat allows better bloodhunting though with some lucky randoms because the population slowly regrows . [ August 02, 2004, 16:30: Message edited by: Boron ] |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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How is it that your S&A is like Ermor again? ****ty scales - which any nation can take. I mean - Ermor gets mages that don't cost any gold, so a dying economy doesn't hurt them. You - pay gold to recruit your mages, and gold for their upkeep. Ermor gets mages that aren't affected in combat by the Cold-3 scale. Your mages - are too cold, so are burning fatigue more rapidly, go unconscious, die, and have to be replaced, for more gold. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Ermor's mages, while not good researchers, can be generated anywhere - S&A's best mages are capital only. Ermor generates huge numbers of free troops that cost no upkeep. You plan to summon magical troops, which costs you gems for each summoning. Ermor could be summoning just as many creatures, while gaining its free, disposable fodder. [ August 02, 2004, 16:36: Message edited by: Cainehill ] |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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How is it that your S&A is like Ermor again? ****ty scales - which any nation can take. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">if you would have read my postings you would have found my reason why tien chi imho favours such a strat is because any other nation can take order 3 + growth 3 and so earn much more money than tien chi s&a . furthermore most other nations have much better national troops . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
Its certainly mainly a matter of playing style.
I rarely take VQ`s,because I encountered already so many in my MP-games,especially before the fix,that its a bit boring for me. I agree,that in order to take a VQ with quite strong magic,Death:3 is an option...with S&A at least. I am more a defensive player and I just hate to know that my income is decreasing while not expanding. You are right with population killing spells...but that doesnt matter to me in midgame at all,since I rely on summonings by then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif I only take Growth 3 for the early game income advantage. I am forced to take Turmoil:1 and since I dont need much resources,I of course take Growth instead of Productivity to get income bonus. Your tactic just relies more on your Luck:3 scale than mine,in order to get enough gold early on to get your Celestial Masters,Temples,castles. Also you have more difficulties,if you have a bad starting position,e.g. with strong indies and/or small provinces only bordering you. |
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but i own dominion only since 2 months so i played only in 2.12 and have never seen the uber 2.11 vqs . the little powergamer / perfectionist in me still thinks the vq is the best choice for the nations who can afford . but i begin to think that the vq still needs a slightly nerfing by 10-20 higher path costs or something like this or restricting her for everything else than bf ulm , ermor + pan cw . when i play 2-3 more months i will probably get bored by the vq too . the problem is mostly fliers are a real problem for an unequipped vq but there are only really few nations ( caelum , abysia , mictlan ) who can go on either strong or many fliers early game . so earlygame even an unequipped vq can be thrown each turn on an invader with no risk and not too bad chances to kill or at least seriously damage the invader . no other pretender that can do this unequipped comes to my mind . |
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-cloud trapeze: you are right. In early game I use him only for expansion and site searching.Later on,I dont plan to use him for battles.After all,your pretender cant do everything at once...so I just hide somewhere,forging items and casting rituals by midgame..maybe conquering a water province from time to time.I dont need teleporting abilities that much therefore...I therefore rather take the scales than Air magic. -Ghost King as SC I think the Ghost King is a little bit underestimated. IMO,its the perfect mixture of SC and rainbow pretender. He has more base HP`s than the VQ and its extremely easy to get a defensive Skill of +30 quite fast. Of course he needs some items(boots of flying,pendant of luck,and such),before attacking really difficult indies...but against most the standard buffing spells are enough. Most battle afflictions arent that bad,especially since I only use him as SC for early expansion. I agree though,that I could always have really ,really bad luck and getting feeble minded early on...thats the price I pay for better scales. -your scales: Cold 3 is indeed nice for undead troops,but means another severe income hit. I agree,that cold3/death 3 combo means big supply problems for enemy armies,whereas my Growth scale is inviting them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif -better blood hunting because of growth: Not only this,I can use my starting troops to patrol my home provinces and set taxes to 120 or 130,without losing too much population on the longterm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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I currently play it a lot in SP and it means lots of fun. I think,the Phoenix is also widely underestimated,especially by all VQ fans . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
This thread has drifted somewhat off its original topic. And yet I think it proves Arralen's point that Tien Chi S&A is a relatively weak theme that could use some help. If S&A's national troops and required scales are so bad that you may as well forget about buying them and just pour all of your points into a Pretender, then S&A is not very good.
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Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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iirc you lose lots of population through higher taxes then 100% , more population through patrolling and finally : your patrollers most likely have upkeep . so even in the short run you get more money most likely without patrollers and taxes simply at 100%. hm i think the phönixes niche where he shines is for marignon : e.g. f9 bless effect + he can be risked on indy provinces hopefully conquering them through holy pyre / fire darts . but 80 new path costs , base hp of 12 and only 2 misc + 1 headslot look too limiting to me to use him as an sc . the problem with the vq is i think she is still the best allrounder pretender sc fully euqipped. of course a lucky e.g. soul slay may kill her . but that is true for every sc . other than that i think because of her very good built in abilities the only reliable solution to kill her are armor negating weapons using scs , for nonhighstrenghts scs like niefel jarls i think though a gate cleaver is needed to kill her reliable . but that is if you use the vq as sc . if you use her as leader of a great army i think the chances are really bad to kill her only due to luck with e.g. soul slay you might kill her or if the attacker makes scripting faults . but more important i think first e.g. the father of serpents and the like need a bit of improvement . i think at the moment only about 10 of the 40-50 available pretenders are chosen for mp 90% of the time without houserules . |
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but before balancing themes adding themes to nations without themes (e.g. machaka ) or adding the 3rd water race i would even wish more for . but balancing weak themes a bit is probably much easier to do than adding a completely new theme/nation . the final problem with improving a theme by strengthening it is imho that they may get a too good boost and become too strong . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
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To clarify my opinion on topic: If you want ok troops,you can play base tien chi. You have,besides a nice variety of mages,good alround armies.Still,even for base Tien Chi,the strength of the nation lies in the magic power. The composite bowmen are cheap and if you think in bigger numbers(+20 archers)the difference between the better composite bow and a normal short bow does matter.Also you have crossbowmen right from the start,as well as ok heavy infantries,even a bless effect strategy might work. S&A on the otherhand has a strong amount of 3 starting summoning spells,which all require different gems(thats a big advantage!),and one of the best mages of the game,with increased power compared to base theme, so I see no problem why the national troops lack some unique units compared to base theme. Just because there is no need to buy lots of national troops,because you can summon your armies right from the start,doesnt mean they need better troops. It plays differently than the base theme and is certainly not much weaker,if at all(I consider it stronger in most situations btw)...and that is exactly what the developers say the themes are for. Barbarian Kings need improvement,lots of it. |
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The standard patrollers for Tien Chi cost upkeep,right,but its less than the gold you get at taxes 120. Its a small gold boost,only to get a slightly faster start. You dont lose that much population at growth 3 if you patrol the first 3-4 turns.After it,you sacrifice your starting troops and try to look for upkeep free patrollers,whenever you have some summonings in your home castle.I usually stop patrolling (which I do only from time to time) at around turn 30 or whenever I feel I earn enough money. I play the phoenix much different. With Air/Fire magic alone you get lots of nice spell combos. Getting 1 expensive other path is also ok,but not necessary. Also dont forget AWE on the Phoenix,as I said,dont underestimate it. Its nice to see those Infantries get to my phoenix,after suffering from several damage spells ,just to do nearly no damage against my Mistformed,Mirror Imaged ,Fire Shielded and AWE Phoenix. Usually this is the case,when my scripted spells are finished and then the AI starts casting those short range mass damage spells... If there are archers,you have air shield,too. And this are only the basic spell combos. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif You die a hell of a lot,but you also kill huge amounts of troops. The key to play the phoenix ,expecially in MP,is to know how to script him correctly against certain enemies AND to know what the AI casts in certain situations. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
Boron, why do you think that S&A troops are that awful? I agree with Rabe. (Except that I play with an Earth Mother, and have much success E4 N3, now all my paths are covered but blood -- depending on map and enemies, I take T1 / Prod 1 / Growth 1 / Luck 2 / Magic 3, Dominion 7, Castle -- I have enough money for CMs, get my heroes quickly, and can recruit some troops.)
I think the troops are decent. Composite Bows are fine for 10 gold and a strat-2 move! OK they are not as good as Man, or Caelum, or Tien default, but they are decent. The rest are acceptable for what they are. Plus there are Spirits out of the box, and Demons. (I agree that getting only 1 per turn is a bummer, but I think it is balanced.) I certainly would have to disagree that S&A national troops are the "worst". |
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first name me a nation/theme that has worse troops than tien chi s&a . the composite bows are ok and the 2 summons DoHF + DoHW . but the 2 summons are hard to get in sufficient numbers . so now a new argument : i have made a test : with 0 scales + watchtower you get about 155-160 starting income ( depends a bit on population sometimes you get 30500 sometimes 29800 in the start ) rabe gets with P3G3T1 H0 about 160-165 starting income . i get about 90-95 starting income with my scales . so about 55% of rabes income . but for that i get +240 + 240 +80 + 120 points = a "uber"vq . if i give her e.g. D5 i have access to all the nice death toys without empowering expect tartarians . at about turn 30 due to my d3 and rabes g3 my income will be only about 45-50% of his but for that i have a "uber"vq . and luck 3 should compensate for both of us . so i have vq but weaker economy and rabe has good scales but slower research ( i have magic 3 ) so in research we will still be both as quick . i still think my approach is not bad too . it is a bit extravagant but i like it . |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
"Worse" national troops (although caveat: uncontextualized superlatives make NO SENSE in dominions 2, I am only doing this because it seems you want to hear something like this!)
1. Mictlan 2. Pangaia 3. Ermor Like I said in my caveat, I don't really agree to this, because "worst" makes no sense uncontextualized, but there you go. Consider contexts, such as: Atlantis and Abysia have NO missile troops, Ctis troops have low morale, etc. with 95 gold per turn, you may have better magic, but you have no one to do the research! You have a great vq, but do you want her to research? You can recruit a ModT per turn, as long as nothing burns down, and they are fine researchers to be sure, but that is it. Like I said in my first post here, it seems that these scales can be applied to any nation with exactly the same degree of success; thus, it seems like 1. an odd idea to want to apply it to S&A. 2. a scary idea, because if it is good for everyone, then it is an "easy one-size-fits-all" solution, and these are notoriously inadmissable in Dom2. Thus, I doubt its validity. |
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I wasn't criticizing any particular set-up, just offering my own (fairly extensive MP) experience in playing S+A. But since you're asking for an analysis of your design. I'll try to indulge you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif I think the main issue with the strategy you outline is early expansion/viability in MP. Having an "uber" VQ with crap scales and a watchtower means that everyone is going to make it their number one priority to kill you. Your income analysis ignored the major difference that my Version has a citadel, which gives admin income advantages, and make people unlikely to want to storm your capital. Also, one's capital provides the bulk of the income through the (most important) beginning turns and growth-3 allows you to run taxes at 120% without pop loss. In practical terms you've underestimated the income advantage (already large)of the scale set up by at least another 40%, and that will widen as the game goes forward. While it is true that the VQ will eventually make for a fine normal troop killing machine, that requires research driven buffs... with no income for regular troops you will be *very* slow at the start. Too slow to avoid being cannibalized, in my view. I'm not saying S+A is without problems, but the art of doing well with S+A is surviving long enough to get your CM's and mini SC's (Nobles, Troll Kings, firbolg) outfitted for combat, while maximizing your expansion and gem income. Plus I'll have a sizable base army to supplement, which is not obviously the case for the scorched-earth VQ setup. Even ignoring the expansion advantage... By midgame the scale heavy strat will have more mages, more research, a better primary SC, a much better fort for choke points, hugely better income and better diplomatic prospects. IMHO. I think the Earth Mother is an excellent choice for S+A as it gives you relatively inexpensive coverage of your weak paths. I have come to prefer the naked Nata just because it is absolutely free, you don't have to be as careful with it, it can't research, so you *have* to expand with it, and in mid/late game they make the ultimate SC. By putting all your eggs in the VQ basket you're sacrificing much of the flexibility that makes S+A fun (and extremely effective mid/late game) It's a matter of taste, perhaps. I'd be interested in hearing stories from those who have played S+A in MP... is the callow VQ strat viable, particularly post-nerf? Rabe |
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Even if you squeeze to make ends meet, now your research suffers horribly from being unable to afford researchers. While you may be able to hang on in the early game, your paralyzing lack of research will cripple you as you enter the midgame. Not good. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
I like Tien Chi, but never tried S&A seriously until this thread. Tested in SP
Boy, is it fun! Went with nekkid Nataraja, and good scales, plus castle. Even poor provinces end up at decent income after a while, and your site searching is awesome. The base troops are OK - esp the archers. Fire demons are good artillery, if annoying to summon. Water demons are a bit bleh, just using normal footsoldiers is usually enough of a shield while your mages do their stuff. Flying commando CM's with rainbow armour/other reinvig items = Fun! Nataraj with 4 totem shields = hilarious support! (he's now gone SC, with lucky shield/ carbon shield/ wraith sword/ flying boots/ ring of regen/ horror helmet, but I found that the curses and arrows meant that large proportion of enemy were dead/ badly afflicted by time they hit the meat shield) MoT5D's = every toy you want for mini SC's! S&A heroes, with luck scale +1/2 turn up. The priestess to patch up the nataraj, the leper to cause havoc, and fly wisk guy to be an uber CM. Immortals all... So, leave S&A as it is. It may not be uber, but I found myself laughing when playing it. Loss of the "economy destroyer" stealth unit is a pain, but that only really works to shut down AI anyway, as players patrol. |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
"but even with luck 3 you get only with 3% probability a hero each turn iirc ."
IIRC, the chances of a national hero are 3% without any luck scales, +1% for every luck scale and -1% for every misfortune one, so with luck+3 its 6% per turn. Still, after 10 turns, that's just [1 - (0.94)^10]% = 46.1384885% that any hero will turn up after 10 turns. For 30 turns its 84.3744393%, and if you aim for only one of them, thats really unreliable... EDIT: Just to make myself clear, that's not exactly the % of getting a hero because you are limited to 3 heroes, you have 84% that 1-30 heroes will show up, and since you only have 3 heroes available, thats not precise, but still pretty close to the actual odds. And still unreliable as a strat... [ August 04, 2004, 13:21: Message edited by: Agrajag ] |
Re: Speeding Up Tien Chi Spring and Autumn ?!
thnx rabe but you left out my main question http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
i wanted to know how you get in midgame additional "highclass" sc's with your naked nataraja strat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif my strategy has it's issues as you have proven http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif but i am really curious how you get higher summons midgame : heros included with your naked nataraja you can get maximum the following paths : A3(1/64probability with cm) E2(1/8 probability with MoT5E) W4 (1/64 probability with cm , w3 with 1/8 cm thats easy and enough for sea kings court ) F3 ( again 1/64 with cm ) S3 ( hero lu tung pin ) N2 ( 1/8 MoT5E , hero ho hsien-ku ) B2 ( 1/64 probability on cm ) D2 ( 1/64 probability cm , hero li tie kuai ) so you seem quite limited midgame on firbolgs / sea trolls because most path increasing items require path 3 to forge . Nature 2 is enough for thistle mace . thats enough for firbolgs . with lamia queens you can forge death items then and get access to e.g. demilichs + wraithlords . lucky lamia queens (2 random sorceries ) can summon bane lords without path increase . so you are quite dependent on nature magic imho . you have no starting nature gem income so you need luck and find nature sites . hmm ok with much luck you get your d2 hero early he can forge for 10 deathgems then a +1 deathstaff or wraith swords . but even with luck 3 you get only with 3% probability a hero each turn iirc . because you have 3 heros it can take a pretty long time to get him . empowering a death 1 mage to d2 costs 30 deathgems iirc so not cheap too . so the problem i have with your strat : you need much luck with random paths or getting heros for the much needed death summons / items . not so serious but similiar to get into nature . tien chi s&a is hard . my attempt is not good because no money . but with your attempt you have to sacrifice almost all points for building your economy scales and still have only slightly higher income than any other nation with complete flat scales . any nation with order 3 and perhaps growth 3 has much higher income than you as tien chi s&a . so imho as hard as you try doesn't prevent you from beeing one of the easier targets early - midgame if you don't have much luck . |
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