pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

afaik there is no info in the manual about pan cw reanimation .
in a quick forum search i found no information too .

so here my questions :

dom manual page 21 : "the unholy priests of carrion woods reanimate manikins . this reanimation is much more effective inside a friendly dominion than outside ."

that is the whole information about cw in the manual .

pan cw theme needs at least magic 1 + growth 1 .

freespawns seem to be dependant on dominion strenght , growth and magic scale .

how are the formulas for that ?
which freespawns need a temple , castle , lab ?


next part :
reanimation :
the manual says reanimation is more effective inside friendly dominion .
so how is reanimation linked to dominion strenght ?

there are 3 pan unholy summonable priests , with unholy levels of 1 , 2 , 3 .

if it is possible please provide detailed enough info that i can make a chart like the one in the manual for ermor .

this info would be really helpful :)thnx in advance


afaik pan cw dominion kills 1% population per dominion level / turn .

so according to how many extra freespawns you get / how many more reanimations you get in average for friendly dominion i perhaps have a very good idea for pan cw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 31, 2004, 01:34: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

There is info about Carrionwoods somewhere on this forum.
I'll check tonight if I can dig something up from my archive.

Meanwhile, you have to search for yourself - don't have the time too atm.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

hm i downloaded the manual addenda from your sig yesterday but haven't found that in your manual addenda liga .
that is exactly what i searched for .

with reanimation though this seems a bit strange because in the dominions manual is written reanimation strongly increases in friendly dominion .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that seems strange :

my most powerful priest is the carrion lord :
so he would have priest level/2 = 1,5 .
rounded up in flavour of player .

that would be only 1-3 reanimations / turn ?
and for carrion lady / centaur only 0-2 ?

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

ok i had a faerun sp game left which i don't want to continue :
so i did some testing there :
my results are surprising :

i had dominion strenghts 8 , growth 1 , the testing province was a wood and unburied corpses there .

i had 11 lvl 3 unholy reanimators in that province too .


after ligas formulas as far as i understood them the following should be :

because of unburied corpses :
10x(8+1+1) % chance = 100% chance for a d10 roll
that means 1-10 freespawns
because of forest location the same , again 1-10 freespawns .

from reanimation :
2 variants :
lvl 3 priest/2 = 1,5

variant 1 :
rounded up to 2 :
2+(1d2-1) = 2-3 summons per reanimation
variant 2 :
rounded down to 1 :
1+(1d2-1)= 1-2 summons per reanimation


so i should get according to ligas formulas :
variant 1 : 24-53 new creatures in the province
variant 2 : 13-42 new creatures in the province


now what i did get was the following :
i did 6 turns and each turn i got exactly 35 new creatures .
it is in ligas formulas ranges but because the range is exactly 29 figures .
there are many possible outcomes , at least more than 1000 , probably much more .
now the important point though :
the exact outcome of 35 has something like a 5-10% probability at maximum .
even if it would be 10% probability my outcome of 35 for 6 following turns would have the following probability because the turns are independent :

6
(0,1) = 0.0001 %

so the formula seems incorrect .

i have found a very simple formula for myself now which fits very well with the outcome :


creatures per reanimation : simply unholy priest level
1x[10(dominionstrenghts+growth+1)] % chance for 1 freespawn because of forest

1x[10(dominionstrenghts+growth+1)] % chance for 1 freespawn because of unburied corpses .


so far the result is : 11x3 creatures through reanimation + 1 for forest + 1 because of unburied corpses = 35 .

[ July 30, 2004, 16:00: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this should mean to the power of 6 ,so 0,1x0,1x0,1x0,1x0,1x0,1 .

unfortunately the forum seems to override my format there and i have no clue how to include such formulas .

ok i could have written [(0,1)²]³ because that is the power of 6 but it is quite unreadable .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">was a Kristoffer O. post ... I never played CW so I haven't test it ...

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I would like to include your formula in my next release ... It seems to me more close to what the other reanimations do (no random, but just a fixed amount dependent on priest level) ... have you also tryed with priests with different levels ?

thank you
Liga

Ps. concerning the formula ... the must be in the Carrin Woods section in the appendix (A.4.5) ... probably is not the right place to put ... I'll try to move that in a better location in the next realease

[ July 30, 2004, 16:23: Message edited by: liga ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

my formula seems correct .
i now conquered 2 forest provinces in a quick testgame .
i build in each a castle + temple .
when i had low dominion i either got 0 or 1 freespawn .
when the temple was finished i got 1 - 2 .
then with high dominion for 100% i got 2 not more not less .

so first conclusions out of that :
pan cw could try a very low dominion to get a quite high income because freespawns via dominion are quite low .
so just summon one carrion lord everytime you have 25 nature gems .
he can reanimate or research and is a good combat magepriest because of his high undead leadership + high hp .

so you could really try a ridiculous dominion strengths of 3-4 and quick expand and try to outrun your dominion .
this way you should still get in midgame a nice amount of undeads through reanimation and will have a modest income in the dominions where you outrunned your dominion .
this is still bad but you will get more money than ermor .
so you can mix a few minotaurs or something like that in your undead armies .
so far that sounds quite interesting .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

ok further testing :

once you reach more than 100% after ligas formula the number of freespawns is really simple :

i had one province , no wood , unburied corpses , result >100% after liga's formula , or my simpler one : 10x(dominionstrenghts+growth+1) %.

1 carrion centaur reanimated .
i got 2 units each turn , as exepted .


one province with wood , unburied corpses , result >100% after liga's formula or my simple one .
1 carrion lord reanimating .
i got 5 units each turn .


so once you have high dominion (>100% after the formula) you always get the after my simple guides posted units :
1 autospawn per turn in woods
1 autospawn per turn for unburied corpses
1 unit per reanimating unholy priest level


in low dominion you simply have smaller odds .
interesting : you still can reanimate in enemy dominion , but there you don't always get the maximum result , more likely a random value of the range of 0-max unholy priest level .
so e.g. for a carrion lord 0-3 per turn .

i think the percentage formula from liga is correct .
so far i think my results are enough info .


if you would like you could await confirmation from developers if really wanted or include it asap in your manual addenda .
if you just mention my name in that chapter is enough for me hehe http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .
makes me proud being able to say i have made a small part in your excellent manual addendum too .

if you want i could check your whole manual addenda and suggest small bugfixes on some small parts and send them to you then like with facts were you said "i think" but which are certified meanwhile by the developers like i did with some small parts already before in this thread .

i just need to know if the manual in your sig is the latest Version and if you wish that .

[ July 30, 2004, 17:03: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

the most interesting info form my testing is :
for reanimations pan cw is extremely simple minded .
you just need to summon carrion lords and totally ignore carrion centaurs + carrion ladies . they have a lower RoI at least in one area : </font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> costs max reanimations/month rp
centaur 10N 1 0
lady 16N 2 3/4/6
lord 25N 3 5/6/8</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;"> leadership (c,u,m) magic hp
centaur 10/35/10 U 24
lady 10/45/5 NUU 15
lord 10/80/15 NNNUUU 53</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">legend : leadership : c = common = normal troops
u = unholy
m = magic
max reanimations/month = unholy priestlevel too
rp = research points . i wrote 3/4/6 and 5/6/8 because you are forced to take at least magic 1 with carrion woods . so base rp for lady + lord are 3 / 5 , 4 / 6 are their rp at magic 1 and 6 / 8 at magic 3 scale .

so while the carrion ladies have give the same roi on research + reanimation ( negligible better : 3 reanimation / 6 research for 24 nature gems compared to 25 for the carrion lord ) their physical fragility makes them worthless compared to the carrion lords.

you need nothing else than carrion lords . they are the best leaders for your hordes too ( can cast puppet mastery ) . their high hps , recuperation and "undeadness" which gives them poison immunity make them unkillable by unequipped assasins early game . because of recuperation they are immune against seeking arrow too and if they got a chest wound it well be gone soon thnx to recuperation .
they have mr of 18 so they are hard to kill by soul slay etc. , anything with mr saves .
this high mr makes it very unlikely that they decay by a bane spider assasin hit . so even these machaka assasins can't kill them unequipped .

if you give them 5 carrion beast guards and script them they are even unequipped unkillable by every expect the most high end equipped assasins .

i am no expert with province target spells but afaik evo 9 flames from the sky is the strongest killer spell .
iirc i read in an old thread that there a damage throw is done too .
if that's true you would need several flames from the sky at once to kill totally unequipped carrion lords .


so a basic pan strat is really simple minded . each time you can afford summon a new carrion lord .
given the many points you get by pretender design you can either make a strong vq or an almost as strong rainbow as ermor .
if you sitesearch with that one you will have a moderate gem income , something a low top 5-8 ranking . simply put every nature gem in carrion lords .
research is a problem i strongly recommend taking magic 3 . you still will be always one of the Last 3 in research rankings for a long time .
nothing to worry about because you are the least research dependant nation in the whole game .
if you go in late early / early midgame on conjuration 6 you get spectres .

you don't need to worry about sc's as much as other races . with a critical mass of mandragoras / carrion beasts you can take out almost every early-midgame sc .
against pretender sc's use carrion beasts + your own pretender .

you still have to worry about banishment / undead mass desctruction spells but not as bad as ae ermor . while almost every ashen ae ermor fodder freespawn even dies on a single banishment you have 2 advantages :
-puppet mastery increases the ap of most of your carrions ( mr negates iirc ) and some of them are already quick . so positioned foremost the quick ones will reach enemy in first round and the great mass in second round .

-a few of your freespawns/reanimations are undead carrion elephants . they are like free behemoth and have almost the same stats , only slightly weaker .
they are size 6 tramplers . because they are undead they have so high morale that they never rout . if you don't fight sc's but hordes of enemy mages you could place several small squads of them foremost . hopefully they attract most undead mass destruction spells and your other carrion beasts can reach the front quite unharmed .
with 94 hp they should survive about 5 wither bones . hopefully then combat is finished victoriously for you already .

mid - late game you can include in your main armies sc-crippler banelords and the like .
i haven't tested this so far but i think it will work quite fine .

so pan cw is very strong but it needs to be left alone in early game .

against norfleets drive by seraphine strat you almost can't protect when on the offensive early-midgame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif
so try to Nap with caelum early game and backstab later http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

main weaknesses of pan cw are :
-slowest research at least early - midgame
-similiar to ermor but a bit more moderate : gold shortage
-very hard to get blood because of killer dominion and slowest research of all nations
-no easy access to clams if you don't find indy w2+ mages . then spectres are most probably your best deal for that .
-bad very lategame race on maps >200 provinces because of the hard access to blood / clams and because of hard access to astral mages . so while you are on the advance no protection for your army against flames from the sky , mass ghostriders and the like . so others can teleport/astral level in while you almost can't do that .

conclusion : pan cw is the second undead race , has worse research than ermor but on the other hand doesn't share some of ermor's weaknesses ( gold shortage , death gem shortage , AE : fragile freespawns/reanimations , no vq , easy to kill through early rush ) . perhaps not the most competetive , but very straightforward nation . expect on faerun and other 300+ province maps you have good winning chances .
i like 2 things most with them : the carrion lords and their undead status . no need to worry about bad events ( 50% pop killed ) or about being ermors earlygame neighbor http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif .
with your sc pretender and your carrion beasts you should be able to give some others a surprise (expect extreme experts like norfleet / graeme dice / stormbinder etc. ) .

[ July 30, 2004, 22:56: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

UAERGHLSADFH

any tips what to do against the autoformat ?

my primitive chart got autoformatted now it looks crappy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

with starting gem income of 7n you will be able to summon every 3,57 turns a new carrion lord .
at ~ turn 10-15 you will hopefully find +1-3 extra nature gems from new sites . so in average you will have about 10 carrion lords at turn 30.
when they reanimate alltogether then than you can roughly expect 1 carrion beast elephant / turn .

so in the beginning you are a bit weak ( but your pretender + the gathered carrion beasts are enough to defend ) + your dominion works against high numbers of enemies . cold 3 scale will especially be evil for heat enemies like abysia and killer dominion normally grants you at least parity in quantity .
in midgame you are strongest and will keep that strenght until lategame when wishwars and the like start .

if you are lucky or take luck scale you can afford to mix some minotaurs or other strong national troops within the carrion beasts .
with a bit combat luck the carrion beasts hit first . then the minotaurs take almost guaranted hits against size 3+ units because of the two reasons :
-lowered defense by swarming
-lowered defense by fatigue
-at 100+ fatigue even chance for ap attacks

so the minotaurs can hopefully take out thughs or weak sc's like poor equipped banelords / firbolgs etc. together with the carrions .

because the carrions will be the main target of enemy combat magic some minotaurs will survive quite long and gain some further strength by exp.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

when i did my own testing with cw reanimations i played with dominion 1 with independs 0, i send a bunch of ladies, centair, and lords out to provinces with neutral domains, and in that situation the ladies and the lords reanimated the same # of carion beasts.

odd_enuf

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The code tags (which work exactly like the quote tags) keep the parsing software from pulling out extra spaces.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Boop Beep</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that's the key . in neutral provinces .
only when you reach 100% according to the formula you get 1 reanimation / unholy level per turn guaranted .
in neutral territory or enemy dominion you seem to just summon random numbers .
so summon in your high dominion capitol for max output .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The code tags (which work exactly like the quote tags) keep the parsing software from pulling out extra spaces.

</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">code:</font><hr /><pre style="font-size:x-small; font-family: monospace;">Boop Beep</pre><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana"></font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx

fixed it . now it looks 10 times better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 30, 2004, 22:57: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

That is in my manual addenda ... obviously it come from somewhere in this forum:


Auto summoning:

10*(dom+growth+1) % chance (actually a d10 is used) of manikin reanimation if there are unburied corpses.

1+growth+magic% chance of mandragora - else manikin.

Also:

10*(dom+growth+1) % chance of carrion beast / pangaean manikin reanimation if the province is a forest.

1+growth+magic% chance of powerful stuff.

There might be some stuff prohibiting human manikin in forests (making them beasts instead)

Reanimation:

Number: Priestlvl/2+(1D2-1)
Quality 10%

So, if you have ten provinces with dom5 (growth2+magic2) of which 5 are forests you would get about 9 manikin and 4 beasts each turn. Of these one or two would be powerful.

[Kristoffer O.]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

Note that if you do take higher magic scales, the Ladies become more economical researchers. They also have more slots for research-boosting items.

PvK

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">thnx pvk .
i already covered that . most likely you just have overread it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you are right with research items they are better researchers but their physical fragility makes them still very vulnerable to seeking arrow and the like . so there overall RoI is still much lower then that of the carrion lord .

furthermore getting the research items as pan cw is not easy :
the skull mentor is a good choice with +9 research for 10 death gems .
the Panic Apostates can massproduce them without empowerment .
but deathgems are rare . they could be spent on banelords , wraith swords and the like too .

the owl quill gives you +3 research for 5 air gems . pan cw lacks though a natural air forger .
your harpy hero has A2 and perhaps your pretender .
but again , i think a staff of storms or other air items are more needed investments i think .

finally the lightness lantern : +6 research for 5 fire gems .
this one is a good research item for pan cw .
in my personal pan cw built i though completely lack fire magic .
furthermore pangenea has to fight cash shortages . fire gems help much against that weakness of pan cw .

but your lightness lanterns are a very good option for pan cw i agree http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
in sp you have problems to massproduce them yourselves but you neither really need them there too . Ai is as bad against pan cw as against ermor .

in mp if you get skull mentors or lightness lanterns through trade then this is great of course http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

so i agree with you that they are good http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
only small part where i differ :
if you get them then you should still put them on your carrion lords .
with 15 hp a carrion lady might get killed by a seeking arrow or fires from afar or an early game assasin .
i think you can say a carrion lady has something like 30-50% probability to survive any of the 3 mentioned attacks early - midgame while a carrion lord has about 90-95% probability to survive that .

you have good points but carrion ladies are still not worth being considered as alternative for carrion lords because of their fragility http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

edit :
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">according to unitattributes.xls both have 2 misc slots . total amount of slots is the same too .

edit 2 :
my ingame check confirmed that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

[ July 31, 2004, 18:06: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

if you're writing up a guide to CW I'd like to suggest that you throw that medusa in that pot of good gods to take. I've used her a number of times for CW and she's pretty tough.

Also for me I usually reasearch alt 6 then cont 4/ench 5 in either order. That's for mass protect (car lords are rdy to cast it), pale riders and the skull staff to cast them. I like the pale riders vs. some of the conjuration bits because I don't need a ton of gems to get them going (meaning constructing SC's), you get alot and they fall right in line with any kind of mad rush you want to put on the rear units (since your horsey's and doggies are so fast).

[ July 31, 2004, 18:35: Message edited by: djtool ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">nice suggestions . if you want you can just write them as variation .
i myself are just so content with my vq for pan cw that i have no expierience with a medusa .
the built in aegis effect is surely very cool . i just love the immortality of the vq .
your medusa is surely a very good sc too .
now i am curious :
when can she start indep conquering with indy settings of 7-9 ?
because of pangeneas early cash shortage and few freespawns i think you need to expand via sc pretender earlygame and a rainbow is a bad choice for pan cw while it can be a very good one for ermor .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

Another thing in favor of having some carrion cuties - carrion lords aren't very cost effective for shuttling the roadkill from province to province.

Now, arguably mound kings or revenants are more cost efficient than carrion ladies, especially as they come from another pot of money, so to speak - death gems vice nature. However, the carrion lady can be used to round up 20-40 auto-spawned carrions, take them to a province, build a temple and then sit there reanimating while guarding the temple.

Sure, if you could afford it you'd want to build a fortress to protect your temples - but CW wants a lot of temples, generally a lot more temples than it can afford to build fortresses on top of.

Also - the carrion lady should survive a seeking arrow with close to a 90% chance of survival; with good carrion critters set as bodyguards, has a good chance of surviving most assassins, but is rather a bit vulnerable to fires from afar.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

did you post your scales when using that VQ? cause I dunno how you use her. Or was that because your using dominion rating of 3 or 4? I guess with a dominion that low I can understand. I like 8 or more.

oh yeah give me her magic Ratings too please?

[ July 31, 2004, 21:28: Message edited by: djtool ]

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm i myself do the following in midgame when i have huge enough hordes carrion beasts :
1 carrion lord in every major army for puppet mastery
in my main 1-2 armies i furthermore use 1-2 banelords . they have 125 undead leadership .

i build 3-5 driads in midgame for temple building . they just sneak with the attacking army and then can build a temple + castle when i have enough money .

because a carrion lady might get killed by a seeking arrow while a carrion lord doesn't .
and the bane lord doesn't get killed by seeking arrow too and is not hurt much by a chest wound .

so the bane lords can shuffle around .
if i equip some of them slightly as thugs mid-lategame doesn't hurt either .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the dominion rating of 3-4 was a guess for how gandalf will probably play cw and outrun his dominion then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


my vq pan cw build :
scales with explanation :

turmoil 3
sloth 3
cold 3 ( you could take heat 3 too but in cold 3 according to spell description my breath of winter shield does more damage in cold 3 + bane lords have chill aura which is stronger in cold area too iirc )
growth 1 ( forced minimum by cw theme otherwise i would take death 3 there )
fortune/misfortune 0 ( can be modified , for weaker dominion or only magic 2/1 instead of magic 3 you can take luck 2-3 , for more brutal vq misfortune -2/3 )
magic 3 ( pan cw already worst researcher i know )

castle : watchtower ( because of 0 points + cheapest castle )

dominion 8 ( can be modified again , on big maps dominion 6 may be enough , but on standard karan mp you will have small positive dominion in neighbor provinces fast , so you can conquer them without danger by your unequipped vq .)
midgame with dominion 8 you will have 5 temples so dominion 9 you can do some scale wars with neighbor enemy/ies then .

now vq :
my path with the listed settings first :
A3W3E3D5B2 .
this way exactly 4 points are left . so almost perfect efficiency with pretender design .

now the crucial paths of the vq with explanation :
A2
this way you can : mistform + mirrorimage for indykilling
cloud trapeze invaders .
W2
quickness + breath of winter
E3
invulnerability (30 base protection)
once you have this up expect by antivq thugs/sc's the vq is already quite hard to kill
(expect by holy pyre/dust to dust/wither bones , for that no protection exists expect other undeads as fodder)
D1(because with that the vq starts)
but D3 is nice to have , this way you can cast midgame soul vortex + summon bane lords without empowering )
B2(because vq starts with B2 , as pan cw unfortunately no need for B2)

an alternative vq pan cw build could include 1-3F . this way you will find many fire sites when you sitesearch with her , so more income for pan cw ( gold is always short ) and you can cast fire shield . this kills attacking fodder undeads like skelletons and other fodder (maenads , any cheap crap national units like militia , phantasmal warriors etc. quite quick).


finally early game strat :

research enchantment 1 (breath of winter , fire shield ) + alteration 3 first .
this will be finished turn 4-5 on normal research .
then place the vq rearmost on the battle order setup map and script her to the following :

quickness , ironskin , mistform , breath of winter , mirror image , attack enemy archers .

if you have fire replace mirror image with fire shield .

midgame when you research alteration 6 :
-replace ironskin by invulerability
-replace mirror image by soul vortex
new script :
quickness , invulnerability , soul vortex , mistform , breath of winter , a fitting attack order , attack enemy archers / rearmost is in most cases the best because it gives you a slight chance to even kill 1-2 enemy mages and at least kill enemy archers .
if your enemy has e.g. a virtue as pretender , uses that in combat and has no other fliers and you know that then script the vq for that special battle attack enemy fliers .
this way you have a good chance to kill the virtue http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

with the vq you can either from turn 4-5 on :
-take 1 indep province solely / turn (about 95% win chance , only special indies with fliers e.g. can screw you. but even if that happens the worst which happened you wasted 1 turn but the vq reappears in your capitol ( thnx to immortality http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ))
-or take 1 indep province and sitesearch it .
with your semirainbowpathes you find about 50% of the sites. ( my above listed personal built at the moment finds about 60% and surely every death site you would find by searching with dark knowlegde )

so either 1 province / turn or 1 searched province / 2 turns .

with the indykilling your vq will have 5 stars xp very quick too. main benefit : +ca 5. att/def .

some tips against enemies :
-beware of caelum . if you attack them with your vq only 5-10 storm guards/ice clads alone are probably enough to kill an unequipped vq .
-any enemy fliers scripted to attack fliers are a problem.
-vanheim with valkiries is the only other nation which has fliers available from start . but normally you don't build valkieries as vanheim .
( at least i wouldn't ).
-wither bones , dust to dust and holy pyre are your WORST enemies because 95% of your army are undead , even your pretender .

so with marignon , caelum , ctis , ermor and abysia you should only go to war once you are sure you are prepared .
you can hurt especially caelum + marignon + abysia great if you can spread your dominion to them . you should always consider pillaging rich farmlands you conquer from your enemy and where you still have no own dominion .

finally : each time you have 400 cash : build a new castle + a temple in the castled province

my main reasons why i take the vq with pan cw are :
-riskless indy expansion
-early - midgame against about 50-60% of the possible nations a unequipped vq is still a threat . especially with the ability to pick the battles you would like via cloud trapeze .
-mid - lategame the vq is a great equipment forger , summoner
-mid - lategame if you equip the vq and give her support (e.g. carrion hordes , bane lord thugs , wraith lords ) she is still a horrible opponent .
-no need to worry about battle afflictions
-if you get killed in friendly dominion the worst that happens is you lose all your items
-with pan cw bad scales don't hurt you so you can afford a quite strong vq


if you have any questions left djtool feel free to ask http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

i have a hard time believing in the turmoil 3 and normal luck approach. I'm going to give it a SP shot and see how it works out. I'm just thinking it's good to squeeze as much cash out of those as you can, while you can. I have had a game where I've lost units to upkeep (I found some fire mages of some sort).

I like her immortality and flying though. Your dominion ends up spreading pretty fast so she'll have good 'reach'.


someting else I wanted to add. I believe in making your harpy your prophet on turn one. A car lord prophet makes a good general, but its seems to me you'll get more summons with making your harpy your prophet. Also as a stealth preacher she can fly. meaning of course that she covers more ground, and retreats better if busted. Not to mention I could stomach losing a harpy over a lord a little better http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">you get more carrions because the harpy spreads dominion . so you get 1-2 freespawns every turn guaranted when you reach 100 or more % after my mentioned formula .

when you get your carrion ettin mandragora hero he is my favourite prophet .

as i mentioned you can modify like you want luck 3 is good too . just replace e.g. make magic 1 instead magic 3 and slightly smaller dominion than dominion 8 and you have about 120 points for luck 3 .

i myself like at the moment luck 0 and stronger vq though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif so she can summon even wraithlords unbuffed + forge almost all deathitems .
but you can easily have luck 3 and weaker vq or only magic 1 .

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

Don't know how useful this is, but I like to research enchantment with carrion woods.
Gives you mound kings to round up and lead undead.
Create revenant for research. I usually take magic 3 as it's supposed to increase the chance of getting the more powerfull carrion beasts.
Twiceborn to turn pans into wight mages, saves you around 20 gold a turn for each pan and there is a chance that they'll recieve an extra level in death magic. Have them cast personal regeneration to reduce the possibility of getting afflictions.
Gift of health can be cast early by carrion woods. If you get taurotyrannus, he can forge a thistle mace and armor of thorns with construction 4 to become a level 5 nature mage.
Foul vapors can be fun too.

Thematurgy 3 for haruspex and panic.

I don't bother much with the mass regrowth spell. I just have dryads cast the area 1 regrowth spell, covers units with more hp first. I also have a dryad follow around my undead pretender and have them cast regrowth for extra regeneration.

I like carrion dragon and ghost king more than vampire queen.

Also temples in forests have an increased chance to reanimate sanguine carcasses since the latest patch.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

that's really useful information thnx molog .

a good other strategy i just wrote my choice as example but your one is very interesting too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif
do you try to outrun your dominion in your strat to get more money ? whats your starting dominion strength ?

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">really?

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">really? </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, magic-3 not only increases the number and size of your carrion critters, but also helps to compensate for your abysmal research. I recall that according to the formulae, it's as strong an influencing factor as Growth, but whereas Growth's side benefits are totally useless to CW, Magic-3 is a must-have.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

i must have missed that. cool that just strengthened my game.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

I take dominion 6 or 7. With magic 3 and growth 1 you only need to have a dominion of 5 to reach 100% and temples are cheap with pangea. Does going over 100% give a benefit?

A ghost king with stoneskin, mirror image, regeneration from prophet/dryad and a thorn staff(gives 23 defense) doesn't have much problems with independents.
Ghost king doesn't have the inmortality and flying of vq, but is a whole lot cheaper.

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">if you make him this way an almost rainbow true :
adding fire he will find everything but astral / blood / nature .

blood sites are absolutely rare + unneeded for pan cw .
nature you can easily find per thraum 2 search spell with your national mages .

so another viable solution http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: pan cw : formulas for freespawns/reanimations. quite finished . with guide too
 

CW Pan can actually benefit from having lower dominion, because Pangaea retains its "Cheap Temples" ability, which allows you to easily spam your temples. Your lower dominion will also make it harder for you to spread your dominion out into neighboring provinces, as enemy dominion will likely overwrite yours....but this can be a good thing, as it means your provinces don't suffer immediate and summary burnination, allowing you to harvest income from them longer. When you decide you want to extend your reach, you can always initiate a flood of cheap temples from your saved cash.