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-   -   MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full) (http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/showthread.php?t=19782)

Stormbinder July 31st, 2004 12:56 AM

MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Greetings All.


The purpose of this announcement is to organize a long, epic and fun Dominions 2 game with challenging, interesting and friendly group of players. The game will have several carefully designed house rules to prevent standard "cheese" and exploits, and to increase the fun for all participating players.

Only serious Dom2 players may apply. That means those who are reasonably sure that they can keep up with game schedule as the game progress and turns will take longer, and those who don't quit the moment things go wrong for them and who generally determined to stick to the end, no matter if it is sweet one or bitter one. If due to some RL emergency you will have to abandon the game, you promise to try to give other fellow players as advanced warning as possible and you will do your best to find a human sub for your nation. The goal is to avoid AWOL players as well as AI nations in this game.


Here are the rules of the game:

**************************************************


1. The “Throne Of Heavens” is no-newbies game, sorry. Only experienced and veteran Dom2 MP players are allowed to join.

2. The settings will be set to Indep 7, Magic 50, HOF15, Score Graphs Off, Renaming allowed.

3. We will play on either Zen's Cradle of Dominion or Karan map, depending on the number of players and the MP public opinion on Zen's Cradle, which some people are trying right now.

4. The total number of players will be 6-8 for Karan map, 8-10 for Zen's Cradle of Dominion.

5. The house rules will be:

5.1 No massive clams hoarding. Each nation is allowed to have only 20 clams max. This purpose of this rule is to give each nation ability to get nice additional astral income, if they will choose to follow this path, while preventing possible severe imbalances at the end game, where some nations could get 200 astral gem income per turn from clams alone, and chaincast Wishes spells, et cetera.

5.2 No VQ pretenders allowed.

5.3 No Ermor nation allowed.


5.4 No "madcastling" in this game.

This rule is intentionally left informal. A lot of people, me including, think that the strategy of covering your entire territory with 300gp castles/temples makes game mindboglingly boring for other players and is very "cheesy". I've thought of several ideas how to formulate this rule in hard terms (percentage of territory, limit on how often you can build castles, limit on total number of castles, prohibiting Watchtowers and Mausoleums, etc...). However they all either require constant counting and bookkeeping, which is annoying, or may not be very efficient.

So at the end I've decided to put it simple: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

If you do not know how to play without "madcastling", and/or intend to madcastle in this game, please do NOT join it.

I will not give exact definition in numbers of what "madcastling" is, but you all know what I mean. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif Generally if you have castles in more than half of you provinces, especially in the beginning and in the middle of the game, than you are likely to be madcastling. Again, this is just a general rule for your convenience, but I've decided to rely on players good faith and common sense here, rather than force everybody to count their castles.

6. The game will run on 24h quickhost. Later in the game we may switch it to 48h quickhost, if the players would prefer to run it this way once the things will get really hot.


7. Some additional information:

The writing of AARs and in-character interactions though diplomacy thread and though other in-game and out-of-game channels are encouraged. However it is not a requirement by any means, there will be no RPG police here. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif But if you want to use your imagination and add nice RPG flavor while playing your nation and your ruler, and/or write AAR after the game, you are most welcome to do it in the "Throne Of Heavens" game.

Diplomacy and trade communications between players through emails, IRC channels, forum threads, or other means are fully allowed.


For cheating in his previous games, Norfleet is Banned from joining this game.


**************************************************


Please keep in mind that this is not a thread for discussion of house rules. If you have some questions or some comments about the rules of this game, you are most welcome to send them to me in PM, and I'll do my best to address your questions or your concerns. But I do not want this thread to become swarmed with discussions about Clams, Madcastling, etc. There are dozens of threads dedicated specifically to these controversial topics, but this is not one of them. Thank you for your understanding.


Please post the nation of your choice here if you have read the rules and interested in joining.


With best regards,
Stormbinder

[ August 06, 2004, 16:24: Message edited by: Zen ]

Cohen July 31st, 2004 01:36 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I claim my favorite nation,

Abysya.

Well unless you don't consider me a newbye http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

quantum_mechani July 31st, 2004 02:05 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I'm not sure why VQs are still outlawed, the nerf made them about middle of the pack, IMO.

Anyway, I think I will give Pangaea a try.

Stormbinder July 31st, 2004 02:58 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I will play Vanheim.

major^3 July 31st, 2004 05:08 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
i call mary

Zapmeister July 31st, 2004 05:36 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Put me down for Machaka

tinkthank July 31st, 2004 10:35 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I think I am still a newbie, so I guess I will wait with joining for a sec and until RL issues get settled. Just one question: Was that serious about cheating and Norfleet? I mean, how can one possibly cheat in this game, you can't hack it, can you?? And there is this "cheat protection", whatever that means?

Norfleet July 31st, 2004 10:54 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I think I am still a newbie, so I guess I will wait with joining for a sec and until RL issues get settled. Just one question: Was that serious about cheating and Norfleet? I mean, how can one possibly cheat in this game, you can't hack it, can you?? And there is this "cheat protection", whatever that means?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a totally unrelated issue. Storm is just endlessly harping about the fact that I entered another one of his games under an alias, and there's an entire piss-and-moanfest attached to the entire matter that I'm not interested in recounting. The short Version is that he likes to call this "cheating", even though it has nothing to do with actual cheats.

Suffice it to say that we've mutually Banned each other from any games we start.

[ July 31, 2004, 09:56: Message edited by: Norfleet ]

tinkthank July 31st, 2004 11:02 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by tinkthank:
I think I am still a newbie, so I guess I will wait with joining for a sec and until RL issues get settled. Just one question: Was that serious about cheating and Norfleet? I mean, how can one possibly cheat in this game, you can't hack it, can you?? And there is this "cheat protection", whatever that means?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's a totally unrelated issue. Storm is just endlessly harping about the fact that I entered another one of his games under an alias, and there's an entire piss-and-moanfest attached to the entire matter that I'm not interested in recounting. The short Version is that he likes to call this "cheating", even though it has nothing to do with actual cheats.

Suffice it to say that we've mutually Banned each other from any games we start.
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Ah right, ok. Well hm, odd. I couldn't really imagine you cheating (in a more direct sense of "cheating"). Since you are such an obvious veteran, I can imagine that entering a game under an alias would actually make sense, even if this does give you an "advantage" (since otherwise people will probably be like: "Watch out for Norfleet!"), because you must get sick and tired of being ganged up upon. (No one is ever frightened of me -- kind of nice, actually!)

Stormbinder July 31st, 2004 11:15 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by tinkthank:
I think I am still a newbie, so I guess I will wait with joining for a sec and until RL issues get settled. Just one question: Was that serious about cheating and Norfleet? I mean, how can one possibly cheat in this game, you can't hack it, can you?? And there is this "cheat protection", whatever that means?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yes, I was very serious. Don't pay attention to what Norf wrote below, it is total nonsense. Entering the game under alias has nothing to do with his cheating. For the details on this whole ugly issue you may search the forums, there were several huge threads related to it not too long ago. However this thread is not a place for discussing it. Suffice to say that we "didn't ban each other" of course. The Norfeet is Banned by at least three forum regulars, who orginize MP games here, from all future games as the result of his cheating.

Any future discussion of this topic will have to take place somewhere else. This thread is for the recruitment of new players for Throne of Heavens game and for nothing else. Thank you.


Regards,
Stormbinder

[ July 31, 2004, 10:26: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Mark the Merciful July 31st, 2004 03:49 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I'll claim Arco.

Catquiet July 31st, 2004 03:58 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I'll play Caelum.

Stormbinder July 31st, 2004 08:01 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Catquiet:
I'll play Caelum.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hi Catquiet. Haven't seen you for a long time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif


You are welcome to join the game of course. However I would like to ask you to choose 2nd race in addition to Caelum, if you don't mind. If we will play Zen's Cradle map, the Caelum may be prohibited from because on the original Dominion Cradle it had very large advantage over all other races due to the unque nature of Cradle map.

Now Zen has made a lot of modifications to the origianl Cradle, and the jury is still out on it, as I said in my first post. You can check this thread for details if you like - http://www.shrapnelgames.com/cgi-bin...&f=74&t=003247 I am still waiting to hear more opinions from Zen's Cradle players about that map, after I've posted my questions on that game thread.

I am not saying that Caelum will certanly be baned if we will play Zen's Cradle. We shall see what the public feedback will be on that map. But just in case, I would recomend you to choose 2nd race, if Caelum will not be avalaible.

Regards,
Stormbinder

[ July 31, 2004, 19:34: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Stormbinder July 31st, 2004 08:59 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
All right, here is the current list of the nations and players:


Pangeya (Qunatum)
Abyssia (Cohen)
Marignon (Major)
Machaka (Zapmesiter)
Caelum(?) (Catquiet)
Arco (Mark)
Vanheim (Stormbinder)

Currently we have 7 players. Few more and we wll have enough for Zen's Cradle of Dominion map.

[ July 31, 2004, 20:19: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Reverend Zombie July 31st, 2004 10:35 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I'll take C'tis, if you'll have me.

Stormbinder July 31st, 2004 11:05 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Reverend Zombie:
I'll take C'tis, if you'll have me.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We will, welcome Reverend Zombie.

Current list of nations:

Pangeya (Qunatum)
Abyssia (Cohen)
Marignon (Major)
Machaka (Zapmesiter)
Caelum(?) (Catquiet)
Arco (Mark)
Vanheim (Stormbinder)
C'tis (Reverend Zombie)


We currently have 8 players. Maltrease have expressed interest in joining this game a week ago, so I would like to reserve one slot for him, until I'll have a chance to speak with him.

We now have one Last available slot, or two slots if Maltresease will not be able to play. Perhaps it would be good if somebody will take one of the underwater nations, Cradle map have enough space for one aquatic race.. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Regards,
Stormbinder

[ July 31, 2004, 22:11: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

archaeolept August 1st, 2004 12:35 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
ok, mictlan. hopefully a majority of the other players will agree to go to 48 hrs QH come the late game.

[ July 31, 2004, 23:39: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Catquiet August 1st, 2004 12:41 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Ok, I'll be Jotunheim if we play the cradle map.

Stormbinder August 1st, 2004 01:15 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
All right, we currently have 9 or 10 players, so we will definetly play Zen's Cradle map.


We may have Last open spot for the person playing water race (otherwise I think it could happen that my Vanheim will have too much free hand in the seas, and I want to keep this game fair and balanced for everybody). As soon as we will get this Last player we will be ready to start, and I'll PM all of you host address and port number. Stay tuned. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

[ August 01, 2004, 01:15: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Cainehill August 1st, 2004 01:35 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
If you need a water race - I'll take R'lyeh.

WraithLord August 1st, 2004 09:46 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
If there's still place for one more nation I'd be taking pythium.

YellowCactus August 1st, 2004 03:57 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
This looks like it's going to be a great game....
-Luck all
Yc

Cainehill August 2nd, 2004 05:22 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I'm going to bow out - not really enough time to get into another normal paced game, plus some philophical issues.

This free R'lyeh, and allows anyone else to choose one of the two aquatic races.

Stormbinder August 2nd, 2004 06:58 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
All right, here is the current list of nations and players:


Pangeya (Qunatum)
Abyssia (Cohen)
Marignon (Major)
Machaka (Zapmesiter)
Jotunheim (Catquiet)
Arco (Mark)
Vanheim (Stormbinder)
C'tis (Reverend Zombie)
Mictlan (Archaeolept)

That's 9 players. Maltrease will not be able to join this game due to his time constrains, and that means that we have one Last spot left for an aquatic race. Izaqyos, if you like you can join the game as Atlantis or R'lyeh, if you are interested in playing one of those nations. Otherwise the aquatic slot is open.

Regards,
Stormbinder

Stormbinder August 2nd, 2004 07:01 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by YellowCactus:
This looks like it's going to be a great game....
-Luck all
Yc

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We shall see how it'll go, but I certanly hope so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Thanks YellowCactus.

[ August 02, 2004, 06:09: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Zapmeister August 2nd, 2004 07:12 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
Izaqyos, if you like you can join the game as Atlantis or R'lyeh, if you are interested in playing one of those nations. Otherwise the aquatic slot is open.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">How long will we wait for the aquatic slot to fill?
Can we upload pretenders in the meantime?

WraithLord August 2nd, 2004 07:42 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I'd like to join the game is R'lyeh.
However I'd be on a business trip today and be back only tommorow evening (my time zone is GMT+2).
I can email my pretender before I leave.

edit. can't find stormbinder's email address.
If you are in a real hurry to start then you are welcome to find another player. If not, tommorow evening I'd be able to upload my pretender and start the game.
Anyway, have a nice game everyone.

[ August 02, 2004, 06:57: Message edited by: izaqyos ]

Stormbinder August 2nd, 2004 03:33 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
All right, the game is now full and closed.

The server is up. I've send to each of you its IP and port number in PM. If for some reason somebody didn't get it, please contact me ASAP.

Let's upload our pretenders. If all pretenders will be present, I'll start the game tommorow evening (August 3rd, PST timezone). The server is set on 24h quickhost.


Cheers,
Stormbinder

WraithLord August 3rd, 2004 08:24 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Glad to be aboard http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

BTW,
After the game has progressed and the turns start taking a long time would it be possible to switch to slower host pace?

archaeolept August 3rd, 2004 08:46 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

After the game has progressed and the turns start taking a long time would it be possible to switch to slower host pace?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that's very much my hope. as long as a majority are ok w/ that, storm said it shouldn't be any problem.

oh, and as all the pretenders have been uploaded, let's get a move on!

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Stormbinder August 3rd, 2004 09:14 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by archaeolept:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">After the game has progressed and the turns start taking a long time would it be possible to switch to slower host pace?
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">that's very much my hope. as long as a majority are ok w/ that, storm said it shouldn't be any problem.


</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That is correct.

Mark the Merciful August 3rd, 2004 10:17 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Is the server down?

Reverend Zombie August 4th, 2004 12:09 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I agree, there seems to be a problemo with the server.

Stormbinder August 4th, 2004 12:28 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Yes, I think the server have crashed when I've started the game earlier today. I've send email and PM to Yossar (the host owner), but haven't recieve reply yet. I'll let you know as soon as the server will be back Online, hopefully it'll be later today. Yossar's host is runing under Linux, which should be stable with Dom2 as far as host concern. /knocks on wood/ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Regards,
Stormbinder

[ August 03, 2004, 23:30: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

quantum_mechani August 4th, 2004 02:14 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Server is up. Unfortunately, it nagots out when I try to play my turn. Something about not finding a mod file.

archaeolept August 4th, 2004 02:37 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
yeah its nagotting:
"myloadmalloc: can't open ./mods/test.dm"

archaeolept August 4th, 2004 02:37 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
dp

[ August 04, 2004, 01:38: Message edited by: archaeolept ]

Cohen August 4th, 2004 02:37 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
I can't take my turn.

It says something about "mymalloc" and it cannot open something in the MOD directory ...

Norfleet August 4th, 2004 02:49 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Your host has accidentally left his test mod enabled when creating your game. The game will have to be restarted, after the mod has been disabled.

Stormbinder August 4th, 2004 03:22 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
It looks like Yossir forgot to disconnect some old test mod of his. I've emailed him about the problem we are having. We may need to reupload our pretenders though. Stay tuned.

Reverend Zombie August 4th, 2004 04:16 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Nagot!!!

Zapmeister August 4th, 2004 05:11 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
If you're quick, there should be a free slot on mosehansen right now. You'd have to upload the zencradle mapfile though.

Yossar August 4th, 2004 07:07 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
bleh, sorry about that. server and game have been restarted and are waiting for pretenders to be uploaded.

Stormbinder August 4th, 2004 07:41 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Yossar:
bleh, sorry about that. server and game have been restarted and are waiting for pretenders to be uploaded.
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's ok Yossar, **** happenes. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif Thank you for puting it back Online and fixing it. Set it on 24h quick host please.


All right guys, let's upload our pretenders again. As soon as all 10 pretenders are in the the game can be started. (unless Yossar had to do it himslef like the Last time).

Yossar August 4th, 2004 09:54 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Stormbinder:
All right guys, let's upload our pretenders again. As soon as all 10 pretenders are in the the game can be started. (unless Yossar had to do it himslef like the Last time).
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Think I do. I could probably set up the command line to start it correctly but this way is easier for me. Assuming everyone uploads by tomorrow at noon EST, I'll start it then.

Stormbinder August 4th, 2004 10:11 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Yossar:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Stormbinder:
All right guys, let's upload our pretenders again. As soon as all 10 pretenders are in the the game can be started. (unless Yossar had to do it himslef like the Last time).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Think I do. I could probably set up the command line to start it correctly but this way is easier for me. Assuming everyone uploads by tomorrow at noon EST, I'll start it then. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Excellent, thank you.

Reverend Zombie August 4th, 2004 02:27 PM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
Quote:

Originally posted by Yossar:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Stormbinder:
All right guys, let's upload our pretenders again. As soon as all 10 pretenders are in the the game can be started. (unless Yossar had to do it himslef like the Last time).

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Think I do. I could probably set up the command line to start it correctly but this way is easier for me. Assuming everyone uploads by tomorrow at noon EST, I'll start it then. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I won't be able to reload mine for another 8 hours or so, about 7 or 8 p.m. EST.

archaeolept August 5th, 2004 01:02 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
ok everyone is re-uploaded. start?

Yossar August 5th, 2004 03:38 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
ok, game started. set on quick host for the moment. i'll change it to 24 hour quickhost after a turn passes.

archaeolept August 5th, 2004 03:44 AM

Re: MP Game - "Throne Of Heavens", veterans and experienced players only (full)
 
sorry to report, i got the exact same nagot: "malloc.... can't open ./mods/test.dm"

edit: though, strangely, it appears that abysia was able to do a turn http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

[ August 05, 2004, 02:45: Message edited by: archaeolept ]


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