your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

a short funny poll .
i am curious if my favourite vq nations share interest or are rather uncommon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

you may chose several answers in the 3 questions .

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

to be brief i only listed nations .
if i had listed all themes the number would have increased to about 25.

in question 1 + 2 you may chose as many answers as you want , in question 3 only 1 .

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

My favorite VQ nation is Marignon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">lol
vq would fit great into diabolic faith but is not allowed http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

VQ is still a viable choice. It is pricey though, so any nation which allows you to play w/ crap scales will be good.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

I only ever take the VQ with BF Ulm because I think she's thematic for that race/theme.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Zapmestier. VQ is still overpowered, if you know well how to design and play her, even after the Last patch - although it is now significantly better than before, thanks to devs. But it is indeed quite thematic for BF, and BF could use some boost. For all other themes I would frown on VQs in the games that I orginize/play.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree with Zapmestier. VQ is still overpowered, if you know well how to design and play her, even after the Last patch - although it is now significantly better than before, thanks to devs. But it is indeed quite thematic for BF, and BF could use some boost. For all other themes I would frown on VQs in the games that I orginize/play. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm yeah for pan cw and the like the vq is still too good . almost 50% have voted that they build their nation around the vq and not the other way round .
perhaps that is really a sign that vq is still too good .
i like the vq a lot ( i started playing in 2.12 so i never saw a pre 2.12 vq ) but i have to admit that she really is a small bit too good still .

i have thought of how to make a lich ( for ryleh e.g. ) a semivq at least midgame but he would need so pricy equipment that it is not worth it .
with no regeneration + a dagger as starting weapon i think it is impossible to use him as an indyexpansion earlygame sc .
no other sc can be used as riskless for early game expansion because all others have either always the small risk to gain a really nasty battle affliction or they have recuperation / immortality but are otherwise too weak to be used as sc .

perhaps i should start a new poll asking about the vq , nerfing it down a little bit more by the following :
forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :
pan cw , ermor , bf ulm , abysia .
at least disallow her for pythium , caelum , arco .
increase her path costs to 60 or 70 .

this way the basic high dominion , 2-3 E , optional 2-3 A , 2+D , 1+B , 2+ W vq will be really hard to pay for e.g. pythium/caelum and so still be worth it for ermor but not be imbalanced (+ very thematic http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif ) .

but at the moment she still is perhaps a slightly too good pretender for the races which can afford lousy scales .


do you think i should try to make a new thread / poll which perhaps results in small changes which balance the vq even more ?

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

First of all, let me say, I really don’t want to start a flame war about game balance here. Just expand on my own poll response, mainly. I’m not exactly an expert at MP. But my vote would be for the VQ to be left alone for now.

I’m one of the people who voted that they built there strategy around the VQ (with Abysia). By that I meant that the VQ was an integral part of the strategy, not that she was the whole point of the strategy. The Last time I played with a VQ and Abysia I used her for early expansion and extra defense in my dominion so I could focus on getting my blood economy going. I didn’t choose Abysia because they have extra points to dump into a VQ; I choose the VQ because I wanted to focus on Abysia’s magic and she let me do that.

I said that I based on strategy around the VQ because the strategy as a whole would not have worked well without her or something similar.

It seems to me that ones strategy should be based around your pretender god; they are afterall what the game is about.

With the VQ forbidden to Ermor now, Pan CW is probably in first place for disposable points to sink into a VQ. From reading these Boards, I get the impression that CW is a weak theme. Even with a tricked out VQ, is CW really overpowered?

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don’t really agree that the VQ is thematic for Ermor and Pan CW. Although she is undead, she feeds on the blood of the living. A vampire in a killer dominion will starve (I know I’m not the first to point this out, but I forget who brought it up first).

If you do want to poll about balance, I think you should put it in the context of specific nations:

Is Pan CW with a VQ unbalanced?
Is Abysia with a VQ unbalanced?
Would Ermor with the patched VQ be unbalanced? (although its removal was I think partially thematic)

Even if the VQ is a little better than her competitors, I’d rather see the effort spent on improving the worst pretenders rather than dragging down the best.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

I was in favor of weakening the VQ before, but I think it is too soon to say if she needs to be weakened again. It does seem to me that she remains the most powerful combat Pretender you can get starting out the game. In the late game other Pretenders and summons can also be very strong with the right equipment, but the VQ comes with so many nice abilities built in that nothing really compares early on. But something has to be the best fighting Pretender early in the game. It might as well be her.

The problem before, at least as Illwinter seems to have seen it, was that the VQ was both an excellent fighter and Rainbow. The only reason you wouldn't take her is if you wanted a bless effect or wanted to dump most of your points into scales/dominion/forts.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">While the VQ is certainly very adept at squashing indies, the King of All Fighters title really has always belonged to the Allfather, who is every bit as potent, and has many of the same attributes working for him, and has always been more rainbowy, with cheaper paths by far. His only real shortcoming is his nationally-restricted status.

On the other hand, with the VQ being nerfed largely to oblivion, the crown has more or less passed to the GK, being that the VQ is no longer affordable in the same role as before: The number of nations that you can squeeze a VQ out of is now far more restricted, and with the exception of those select nations, I, personally, have shifted to the GK for the rest.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

Quoting Boron:

"forbidding her for most nations . only allow her for thematic natioins :

pan cw , ermor ,"

These nations kill people & she eats people so I do not think they are thematic

doh! as others point out later in the thread

"bf ulm , abysia ."

ATM you have to allow her for all Ulm if you allow BF - not that she is a good choice for the others

As you say she is powerful for the nations that can afford to trash their scales plus that benefit from the blood/death she starts with She seems to be almost a theme on her own as you the build around her thing shows.

I am not sure she is ovepowered but she is the best choice by miles for this type of scale trashing good early, good middle, good late SC so she gets boring. I think maybe some other chasis could be boosted to close to her level (& cost) to create options for this role.

Pickles

edited typoes

[ August 02, 2004, 23:32: Message edited by: Pickles ]

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">well i had in mind vq is undead so are ermor + pan cw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
no blood is a good point though .
but once she is a real god she can create her own bloodslaves http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

i think raising something else to similiar strength as the vq is the wrong approach .

first some pretenders like the father of serpents should be nerfed up .
perhaps for these pretenders illwinter could disallow the rule : no troops , commander retreats if not immortal .
then the lions , snakes etc the various pretenders get would be a real small help.

only for the moloch the routing should be left otherwise he is a sc early game + cheapest fire bless chassis .

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Carrion Dragon (as well as Allfather) is probably a better, more powerful combat pretender right out of the blocks, especially when playing as CW, giving quick easy access to some very high regeneration for the CD.

Even late game, fully tricked out, the CD and Allfather are just as good. The difference is that the VQ dying is a only an inconvenience, as are any crippling wounds, even feeblemindedness. (Crippling wounds also aren't a big deal for the CD.)

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The Carrion Dragon (as well as Allfather) is probably a better, more powerful combat pretender right out of the blocks, especially when playing as CW, giving quick easy access to some very high regeneration for the CD.

Even late game, fully tricked out, the CD and Allfather are just as good. The difference is that the VQ dying is a only an inconvenience, as are any crippling wounds, even feeblemindedness. (Crippling wounds also aren't a big deal for the CD.) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">yeah her immortality is a problem .
so you may chose what she should do :
still be quite dangerous unequipped / only low euquipped in many situations or extremely well euqipped .

she has built in so many things already .
flying , no need for boots of air , so she can take boots of quickness etc.

the carrion dragon may be more powerful from turn 1 but he has only 3 slots . and with alteration 3 the vq is sufficient enough to expand against all but 5% of the indies and win 99% sure .

the allfather is good too but restricted to vanheim only . if you spent lots of points in him it is a waste for vanheims good troops .

and he still may die unluckily .

with the vq you really can do everything she is the best allrounder .
mid-lategame you can either let her be a supporter by forging / summoning or turn her into at least a top 3 sc with euqipment .

because of their allround abilities she is still the best choice for the nations who can afford .
perhaps putting her to fire -100 resistence like the lich would solve that .

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Immortality is worth less than subtle behavior tweak that it induces. It's the immortality behavior, not the actual immortality, that makes immortality nifty: Immortals don't rout in dominion. The actual ability to reincarnate is merely "meh", as this implies you intended to lose anyway. Except for the nice, free "death express" ride back to your capitol, flying into a battle with intent to lose is still, well, losing.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You pay for this privilege with a high point cost that got even higher, and relatively lackluster and unexceptional physical stats. While the ability to fly and be ethereal is great when you're pummelling indies, most of these attributes are negated or meaningless against another SC or pretender: Etherealness means crap when your opponents all have magic weapons. Flying does jack all when it just means you outrun your screen force and run smack into the line of fire, making yourself the magnet for anyone wanting a shot at something. Immortality is cool, but you're still getting your butt kicked. Lifesteal is nice, but then, anyone with wraithii or thorns can get that, too...and you probably want to give her a weapon anyway unless you want a shiny, new, Knife of the Damned.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The carrion dragon has 3 slots in his dragon form....which is best when you have no item to give him. Later in the game, he can revert to his Carrion Lord form, itself a fairly burly chassis, with full slottage, retaining his sleep vine attacks nonetheless, and wear a full suit of gear.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Unluckily, or stupidly? It takes $20 on a hit-and-run scout to verify anything in the province. If you blindwarp into a province, it's your own fault. A VQ is not immune to this either, as dominion does not spread THAT quickly, and if you want to expand aggressively, you're flying out of your dominion, spreading it on the move. If you can only expand inside your dominion, you are moving more slowly than others can.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The new VQ is so hideously expensive that she will not really be affordable as such for most nations. The GK has taken over the crown for early SC/retired mage for most nations. You can take my word for this: I was, after all, the most noteworthy user of the old VQ, and most national builds I use are now GK builds instead.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Her point cost was _not_ high before 2.12. It was actually very inexpensive compared to every other pretender that could accomplish similar feats. It can't be that expensive either, since you're still using Phillinon.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I like that you are completely ignoring that the real point of flying for a SC is strategic maneuverability.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">She's immortal. It doesn't matter if she gets a cursed weapon, since she can lose it at any time, and the curse doesn't hurt her.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">The ghost king is easy to deal with in comparison to the VQ, since you only need to deal with him once. He also has to wear flying boots, which means that you either put jade armour on him, or lose a scripted spell to quickness.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Caelum can certainly afford the points, sure.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Two words: Astral Weapon.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Or, as I mentioned, he could just not fly. And you say "you only need to deal with him once", but if you can deal with it once, you can deal with it more than once. Killed is killed. It doesn't matter if they come back immediately so you can kill them again, you're still advancing.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Perhaps you haven't seen what a carrion dragon can do once Alteration 3 has been reached? Perhaps with enchantment 1 or 2 thrown in? Both the CD and the VQ can take most indies (probably less than 95% early though) and in general I'd say the CD has better odds in those fights. The VQ can get nailed by bad luck - a heavy blow getting through her ethereality can mess up her day, while the CD shrugs off those blows.

Perhaps more importantly - the CD doesn't _need_ to wait for Alt-3 or Ench-2. It's big and bad enough that it can solo provinces on turn 2 or 3, before the research gets done.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">This is the kicker for the VQ - any of the three can die attacking an unscouted province. Similarly, any of them can be killed in the late game. But the VQ shrugs it off nonchalantly, as long as it was friendly dominion.

*shrug* I still think immortality shouldn't give recuperation; that's one of the side effects that makes it too powerful, imo, even for the cost. Let the immortal heal all afflictions on immortal rebirth, and then they at least have to shuck off their equipment and get themselves killed when they have too many afflictions, instead of constantly healing them all along.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

[quote]Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

Quote:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Two words: Astral Weapon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

[quote]Originally posted by Cainehill:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Norfleet:
</font><blockquote><font size="1" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">quote:</font><hr /><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Originally posted by Graeme Dice:

Quote:

No, they don't get an armor piercing 20 damage single-handed lifedrain attack, no matter what weapon you give them.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Two words: Astral Weapon.</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Cha! You know as well as anyone that no sane person puts Sorcery on a non-immortal pretender, unless perhaps they put an obscene (8-10) amount on.

Therefor, only immortal pretenders and a few others are going to commonly be able to use Astral Weapon, and let's see - the Phoenix can't use a weapon, the monolith, Baphomet, and Shedu have no hands (and no attack for the first two - lot of good Astral Weapon does them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif ). So generally speaking - only the liches, bog mummie, and VQ might realistically be seen with Astral Weapon.

Oh, wait! The Great Enchantress maybe, since she starts with Astral magic? I can just see her going into melee combat. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

(Well, actually, I did just see one do that, and my Jonin wasted her after dealing with her troll bodyguards. So much for S4 and whatnot. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ) </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Wow. Cianehill disagreeing with Norfleet.

/Stormbinder rubs his eyes to make sure it is not an strange dream/ http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

To Norf: 2 words - Mind Duel. Inless you get huge ammount of astral up to at least 8+, which would force you to waste huge ammount of points on most SC pretenders.

[ August 03, 2004, 02:51: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">So you are going to put a slave matrix or blood slaves on your pretender, and have him go sessile as soon as your masters cast any spells? There's no other legal way to get astral weapon on a unit without having astral magic.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But that's all part of having immortality, which rocks both because of its direct effect, and the indirect ones. Add it to all the other VQ powers and you get a pretender that is still, in my view, a tad overpowered (and, by observation, still disproportionately popular).

I liked the idea of fire-100 vulnerability. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">But is the VQ's popularity due to objective assesments of its strengths, or because people find the idea of immortality an attractive safety blanket (even though its strategic value turns out to be pretty limited), or simply because Vampires Are Cool?

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't know. But I do know that if you nerf something sufficiently, you will make it less popular. And if it was previously over-popular, then a greater variety of pretenders will see the light of day.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">It's some combination of all of the above. My attachment to it is primarily because its strengths happen to mesh well with my playing style. As a result of the nerfing round making it considerably less affordable, I've dumped it from many national strategies, or greatly de-emphasized it, even if I retain it purely for psychological value. There are, of course, others who cling to it anyway, even after I've said it wasn't affordable anymore, but these are people who I am pummelling. Of course, the "vampires are cool" crowd, well, they're hard to discourage. I know several who want to take them simply because "vampire chicks are sexy". These people take their VQs, and don't actually really use them to fight at all.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Part of the VQ's popularity may simply be flavor. I mean, you look at the alternatives, and, well, they're kinda meh, from a thematic viewpoint. Just look at some of the demigod options: Unless you're a big fan of the mythology they spring from, there's not much appeal to them: Some of them look kinda silly, and their mommas dress them funny.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I don't at all like this line of reasoning, but it does lead to the point I was aiming at when asking my previous question.

If the VQ is popular becuase it's overpowered - and therefore the obvious choice for munchkins everywhere - then nerfing is a valid option. But if it's popular simply because people like it... Well they paid money for the game, and they're entitled to play it how they want. I don't think nerfing the VQ into oblivion just to make people choose other Pretenders is a reasonable objective to aim for.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

it was the munchkin uberpretender par excellence. it perhaps still is, but at least you have to pay for it now. the vast popularity it held amongst pubbies was in large part simply a reflection of it's reputation as a munchkin uberpretender - a lot of newbies would take it in some MP game because they had heard how strong she was. However, they usually didn't know how to use her.

Norfleet is being a bit disingenuous. i think all those games i've seen him playing since 2.12 where a VQ is an option, he has taken the VQ. before the patch he also tried the line that the GK was "in many ways the superior pretender", but I also never saw him take the GK when the VQ was an option.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

at least now i don't feel dirty picking her as a pretender. immortality may still be too powerful, but at least she is no longer ridiculously underpriced.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the problem now is that it gives some races an edge . e.g. caelum + abysia can still afford a vq . both are already strong without vq though .


i still think susceptile to fire 100 for the vq is a good solution .
it is thematic anyway because vampires get killed by the sun + they don't like fire too .
this will make the vq still good but not slightly overpowered as she still is .
all the other undead immortal pretenders like the lichs have that -100 fire resistence .

this way the vq still can be used as a super early game expander and for combat but has to chose to either do something against the -100 fire resistence or live with it .

she already has 2 resistences + most wished built in abilities . this way she can take 1-2 useful items more than anyone else .
flying -----> boots of quickness -----> no jade armor needed etc.

another advantage of the vq is she has D1B2 . so she can easily chainsummon vampires .
a vq abysia with chainsummoned vampires / vampire lords pushing dominion by blood sacrifice is scary http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

I do not think the VQ is overpowered any more. Previously she was a little strong. But as it is only a few races can really afford her. Sure (almost) anyone can take her but she will lose much of her effectiveness. And even for those races which can afford her, it's not simply that she is just as good as before for them. They can simply better afford the sacrifices that must be made.

Compared to the liches she now has worse dominion, and always had worse physical stats, but gains etherealness, regeneration and flight and is less flammable. But she costs 40 points more and has worse path cost. Built in the typical VQ-as-SC-way, that's going to add up to about 70 points extra cost over a comparable-magic lich, with worse dominion. This really seems like a fair deal to me.

Someone is going to be the best SC pretender. As long as the price is fair, that's OK.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">That's because I've been in all of two games that have started since then, both of them as Caelum, one of the nations that still CAN afford it. Maybe if you actually played in more games that I was in, or hell, there *WERE* more games to play, you'd see more GK.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">I agree, but I don't think I ever proposed nerfing the VQ "into oblivion". I hold to the view that she's still a little over-powered post-2.12, but that's a debate I'm trying to steer clear of now.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">There are ways of getting Astral Weapon onto your pretender without being able to actually cast it. If you are driving, say, a Void Lord, in any case, you're already stuck with the Astral anyway. And hey, the Void Lord has a nice Life Drain tentacle, one which he can't lose by wielding a weapon. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You could take a Son of the Sun. I mean you *could*.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeh - the VQ may be a little over-powered still, but mainly only for a couple of nations / themes. More importantly, it isn't so much overpowered that there aren't possibilities that are at least on a par with it. For example - Caelum : Virtue, PoD, and Moloch all seem to be roughly on par with a VQ. Sure, maybe a little lighter in the loafers, but real close - enough that you can see building a game and pretender against any, and not just the VQ.

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the "problem" now with the vq is that the races who can still afford her , mainly caelum and abysia are already good races without vq .

this makes them even more desireable . from my short experience now abysia + caelum are under the 5 first chosen races in most offered games . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">You missed my point. Yes, you can build an uber-VQ with Abysia or Caelum (also with Pangaea, also with Ulm, also with Jotunheim). But with those same points, Abysia and Caelum can also build unGodly Virtues, PoDs, etc, that are _JUST_ as potent as the VQ. Their only problem is when they die or get feebleminded, they don't shrug it off the way the VQ does. (Albeit Pan's Carrion Dragon shrugs off the feebleminding.)

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

ok true . but all in all they are not so much cheaper than the vq .
especially for abysia the d1b2 of the vq is just nice because with only little empowerment there she can summon vampire lords .

all in all the pod + the virtue are about 100-150 points cheaper than the vq so about +3 scales .
this is the price for immortality etc.

but both need to be equipped in the best possible way you can if you want to use them in combat mid-lategame .
the vq can be equipped but it is no 100% must you can simply degrade her to a forger / summoner + occasional attacker not of the main enemy army but raiding armies etc still unequipped .

the immortality bonus is not that great but is good from psychological viewpoints .
if you are e.g. 80% sure to win the battle you can use your vq but perhaps you don't use your pod/virtue .

Re: your favourite 2.12 vq nation
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Yeh - the VQ may be a little over-powered still, but mainly only for a couple of nations / themes. More importantly, it isn't so much overpowered that there aren't possibilities that are at least on a par with it. For example - Caelum : Virtue, PoD, and Moloch all seem to be roughly on par with a VQ. Sure, maybe a little lighter in the loafers, but real close - enough that you can see building a game and pretender against any, and not just the VQ. </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">the "problem" now with the vq is that the races who can still afford her , mainly caelum and abysia are already good races without vq .

this makes them even more desireable . from my short experience now abysia + caelum are under the 5 first chosen races in most offered games .