SC Banelord question
 

I would like to talk about effective way to kill SC Banelord in the early/middle game.

We are talking about stadart run-of-the-mill SC Banelord, with WraithSword, Jade Armor, Flying Boots, Luck amulet and Antimagic Amulet.

The first and most common way is to kill him with SC of your own, with either lifedraining or AN or Anti-undead weapon. Other options include swarm him with a lot of either very high armor or very hard to hit troops, with high enough str+damage value, to slowly bring him down faster that he can heal himself.

Other options is to kill him using you mages with elemental magic, lighting or fire based, if he does not have items that protect him against it.

Banishment would not work of course, against 19 MR.


What else? I could have sworn I have killed similar Banelords before with just few herald lanced, casting Solar Rays. However recently I have observed battle of such Banelord vs Pythium's 4 theugs, casting quickness + massive solar rays each, 8 rays per turn while he was fighing thier infantry. They hardly damaged him at all, which looked strange to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I mean - Solar ray is 100% accurate 12+ AP attack, no Magic resistance. One would think that 8 solar ray per turn could damage him at least time to time? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif His armor was not that high after all, with Jade Armor replacing his platemail. Instead most of Solar rays casted by 4 Astral 2 theugs failed to damage him at all. Maybe Solar Rays from Herald lances are considered to be casted as higher level than just 2, dealing more damage? As I said I think I have killed simialar Banelords before with just few Lances without much troubles. Any ideas?


Ok, what else? Dust to Dust should work well I suppose. IIRC is is 20-something none-resistable damage vs undeads, however is has low precision. Still in close distanses it should do the trick, I assume, right?


Any other effective ways to deal with Banelord SCs? Remember, we are talking about begining/medium game in terms of magic reseach, Con level 4-6, etc.

[ August 06, 2004, 20:39: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm solar rays has 12+ ap and 2s . since you said theurgs casted it you make 12 ap damage .
against about 20 protection , halfed .
according to saber cherries dice statistics this is 3.29 avg damage so each one should do about 2-5 damage i think .
i think the luck amulet negates 50% of those hits too .
so 4 hit and you do about 10-20 damage per turn to him but he has 2 hits through quickness so he just can heal this killing 2 pythium infantry / turn i think .


what should work well early game though is swarming him with 50-100 undead but that is hard to get as pythium .

with 2 squads one with hold orders you can perhaps fatigue him out with stellar cascades .
because of the areadamage 1 squad on hold orders . with 25 ap fatigue damage he will get over 100 fatigue in 1-2 turns and unconcscious he should be no big deal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

as you said as pythium some lighnings should kill him as long as he has no lightning resistence quick too .

dust to dust / holy pyre should do wonders .
through communion you get +1 in every magic level right ?
so holy pyre should be cool there . 7+ ap damage x3 against undead there 2 communion masters casting that with quickness + an aiming buff should be enough too .

the easiest way though is imho forging a duskdagger for your own sc . in midgame 1 of your arch theurgs should have a random death pick .

edit : if your pretender has sc ability and air magic you can interrupt him with cloud trapeze when you feel save to kill him . savest way for you for this is early game cloud trapezing in an vq in friendly dominion or mid-lategame an airqueen sc for this .

[ August 06, 2004, 21:16: Message edited by: Boron ]

Re: SC Banelord question
 

A Bane Lord equipped like that is indeed vulnerable to fire (incinerate comes to mind) and lightning, as well as maggots and other anti-undead fun.
A horde of mannikin / mandragora could perhaps also be nasty; a wraith sword shouldn't be able to restore fatigue off of them, and each Sleep Vine gets 3 attacks per turn causing 33 fatigue on a hit.

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm mandragoras with n2d1 are hard to cast for pythium if they don't have it on pretender .
maggots too i think . at least 100 fatigue when cast with n1 mage .

Re: SC Banelord question
 

stellar cascades lol

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">in theory they should work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif
i think there is though a mr negates missing in spell description because i got them not working the 1 time i tried them lol
but in theory they should work .

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">hm solar rays has 12+ ap and 2s . since you said theurgs casted it you make 12 ap damage .
against about 20 protection , halfed .
according to saber cherries dice statistics this is 3.29 avg damage so each one should do about 2-5 damage i think .
i think the luck amulet negates 50% of those hits too .
so 4 hit and you do about 10-20 damage per turn to him but he has 2 hits through quickness so he just can heal this killing 2 pythium infantry / turn i think .
</font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">No you don't understand. Theugs were hiting him 8 lances per turn fopr about 5 turns, without doing almost *any* damage at all. Maybe one out of 10 Lances did as much as scrath him for few hitpoints. Andof course I am not talking about healing him restoruing his life with Wraith Sword. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

I was quite surpirsed (and I am not playing Pythium, just observing their battle in one of my games)

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hold order is bad idea when you are dealing with flying units Boron. They will sit for 2 turns allowing SC to drain them, instead of surrounding him.

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Holy Pyre will kill all your trops in just few turns, it has 3+ area effect and very inaccurate..


The rest of you points I am well aware of, I was asking if anybody could suggest something that I didn;t think off. But thanks for trying to help anyway. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SC Banelord question
 

hm pythium has really problems with summons until you get it on your pretender .
and they have no good anti undead magic early game too so i think pythium needs a sc pretender which can summon some death scs e.g. too midgame .
so i am curious if someone finds a solution to defend with pythium against such a e.g. banelord sc without making own scs / taking a pretender sc .

Re: SC Banelord question
 

I'd go for Soul Slay.
Even if MR is pretty high, with communion you raise your level, and with quickness you can have a bunch of fire that meanwhile the banelord slaughter your infantry you kill him ...

A Ryleh player with about 6-7 Starspawns (mage type) killed one banelord of mine with Lead Shield, Starshine Skullcap and AMA ... in 0 magic/drain scale province ... (blood thorn, flying boots, pendant of luck, jade armor the rest of equipment).

Re: SC Banelord question
 

Originally posted by Boron:
"with 2 squads one with hold orders you can perhaps fatigue him out with stellar cascades .
because of the areadamage 1 squad on hold orders . with 25 ap fatigue damage he will get over 100 fatigue in 1-2 turns and unconcscious he should be no big deal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif "

According to the manual 0 enc characters are not effected by fatigue generating spells (& other things too IIRC).

Pickles

Re: SC Banelord question
 

I still think that it is quite strange that 8 solar rays per turn for 4 turns had vitually no effect on that run-of-the-mill Banelord. 12AP damage that does not allow MR check, should hit though potection (around 20 IIRC, Banelord with just Jade Armor) fairely well. Ok, half of Solar lances were negated due to luck, but it stil leaves 4 solar rays each turn. 95% of them did not damage him at all, and few damaged for just few hitpoints. Any explanation for it? Shouldn't the damage from each Solar Ray casted by astral 2 mage and not deflected by Luck be calculated as:

DAMAGE = (protection/2 + open ended 2D6) - (12 + open ended 2D6) ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

And as I said I have a strong feeling that I've killed such SC Banelords before with just 2 Herald Lances. Shouldn't it be the same as casting Solar Ray by astral 2 mage?

[ August 07, 2004, 08:07: Message edited by: Stormbinder ]

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this i tried to explain in my post before :

Quote:

Originally posted by Boron: hm solar rays has 12+ ap and 2s . since you said theurgs casted it you make 12 ap damage . against about 20 protection , halfed . according to saber cherries dice statistics this is 3.29 avg damage so each one should do about 2-5 damage i think . i think the luck amulet negates 50% of those hits too . so 4 hit and you do about 10-20 damage per turn to him but he has 2 hits through quickness so he just can heal this killing 2 pythium infantry / turn i think .

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">againt prot 20 3.29 avg damage only . against prot 22 again fewer .
most likely the herald lances cast it with a higher level . </font><hr /></blockquote><font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">And I told you he didn't heal it from infantry. The Solar Rays did not affect him, period. Do you think I am newbie who would not notice damage done by Solar Rays becuse it would be healed by WrathSword??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

As for Herald Lances - it is possible, I suppose. But I would like to know it for sure, not just think of a theory, as I did myslef. So far I never heard of itmes giving any additional benefits to the spells they cast.

Re: SC Banelord question
 

Bump, cause Frosted Flake will be amused that someone else noticed his agony as Pythium http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">Hey, I know how *I* would play pithium. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon12.gif I was just observing other person battle.

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">i know that you are no newbie http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/tongue.gif
but in the first part i just compared it with the statistics and 3.29 damage is not much .
i just pointed out that your viewings agree quite with the statistics too .

it is just as you said 12+2d6oe -(10+2d6oe) .
in this battle the bane lord was probably particular lucky and throwed in almost every saving throw which wasn't canceled by luck a 2+ higher result which results in zero damage .

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">We, no, I don't think it'd be explain by "newbie-ness" but I do think you are .... Not the sharpest squid in the ocean? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon7.gif

Re: SC Banelord question
 

<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">this i tried to explain in my post before :
<font size="2" face="sans-serif, arial, verdana">againt prot 20 3.29 avg damage only . against prot 22 again fewer .
most likely the herald lances cast it with a higher level .

Re: SC Banelord question
 

I assume you don't have anything intelligent to
to say Cain, other than silly flames? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif


All right, it looks like nobody know for sure why this battle happened the way it did. Maybe it was just a very bad luck on the part of Pythium, who knows. I will probably set up experiment myself later on, when I'll have time, and see if this situation was a rule or rather exception from the rule. Thanks for everybody who shared their thoughts and ideas.

Regards,
Stormbinder