Ermor MP Battlefield Game - FFA /CLOSED/
 

Greetings.

I would like to share and discuss what is happening in our tournament game, because I have some questions that I don't know the answers for. It is about Soul Gate Ermor, controlled by (surprise! ) Norfleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Now before you all take deep breath and think: "Oh , here we go again, Stormbinder flaming Norfleet, new seria in this "soap" opera..." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I would like to state this: I am going to keep this threat polite and neutral, at least from my side. I don't want to start any new flame wars or reignite the old ones.


What I would like to hear are the answers to several specific questions regarding Ermor nation in that game, which is controlled by Norfleet. These are not questions that originate only from me, because each of the other 4 players who are in this game, and who have been cooperating against Ermor all along, would like to know the answers to them as well.


First, some background info about our game: We have been playing on Karan map, 6 players total, standard MP settings. I was playing Vanheim, and as I said Ermor was played by Norfleet. As of Last turn, the game is pretty much over, the Ermor won. We are playing this game with Graphs ON, and from the stats it is clear that the only nation that was even coming close to the Ermor was Vanheim, other nations are very far behind on most graphs. So I have been fighting Ermor for the Last 7 turns or so, until in the Last turn’s battle my forces were completely annihilated while storming the Ermor Castle. I lost my All Father pretender, prophet, SC and entire army to Ermor's 5 SCs (3 Wraith Conculs and 2 Banelords) supported by 3 Dusk elders with Lifedraing Banners each. Of course all Ermor's SCs were fully decked with regular SC's gear.

Now here is the question that is buging us all, since all living nations have been very actively cooperating against Ermor for the Last 10 turns, and we all have scouts all over the place and share info with each other:

In just this single battle, the Ermor have used 470 gems worth of equipment and summons Now, according to the graphs, my current gem income until tha Last turn was about 50+% of Ermor's. As those of us familiar with mathematics may remember from college years http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif, the total gem income for each nation in the game is equal to the area under the Gems Income Graphs. ( in other words it is integral of the graph function).

The graphs in our game are very clear. If we take the total amount of gems collected by our two nations than it is very clear that I have collected about 60% of total Ermor's gems for the duration of the game (I am only talking about regular gem income from the sites, since nothing else is reflected in the gem graphs). Add to this the fact that Arco, Pythium and Jotunheim have been sending *all* their gems to me, since I was spearheading and coordinating our anti-Ermor efforts, than I had in my possession about 70% of the gems that Ermor had.

Now keep in mind, it is just turn 22, standard MP magic 50 frequency. But the thing is, my nation could not afford half of the 470 gems used By Ermor for summons and equipments that they used in just this single battle. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

That's almost 500 gems. The number may be lowered slightly if ermor used dwarven hammers to forge some of the equipment for his commanders, but not by too much. What more, based upon Ermor research (which is sky high), and based upon other graphs info, and based upon reports from other allies as well as my own scouts, I can make a good guess that Ermor probably has at least 1500 gems worth of other summons and equipment in his empire. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif Remember, this is just turn 22, and he didn't search for sites at all up until 7 turns ago. And even now his "official" gem income is pretty low.


Also keep in mind Ermor in this game must have alchemized like crazy a lot of his gems, since he have madcastled most of his provinces (at least 20 castles), build temples and probably labs everywhere. While his money income is totally abysmal, of course.

So I would like to ask Norfleet this - how such amount of gems is it possible by turn 22??? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif


Now before you all guys think of the possible explanations, let me state this:

Some of these additional gems could have come from random events (Ermor is playing Luck 2 turmoil 3, so he would quite a few events). Some of these gems could have come from Raven Feasts, which Ermor could used on some of his high population provinces while he was actively murdering the population. And finally some could come from Clams, since we all know that Norfleet loves to clam hoard. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif However clamhoarding is not easy to do for the Soul Gate Ermor, since they don't have any water or even astral income, and lack any water 2 mages. It is still possible to do of course, but by turn 22 he could have too many clams, and they could not generate him that many gems. (which he would have to convert anyway)

So where would these 500 gems worth of equipment in just one battle (in which he didn't even used his nearby GK pretender), as well as about 1500 gems worth of Dusk Elders and other summons + additional equipment + gems to achemize to the gold would possibly come from? The Raven Feasts and gems from random events can only get you that far, after all. I would like to hear explanation from Norfleet about it.


Agian, this is NOT a flame tread, so please everybody stay polite and respectful to each other. If there is a valid explanation for all this, I would like to hear Norfleet telling it. Other 4 players in our game also would like to hear it very much, since everybody is as much puzzled as I am.



Regards,
Stormbinder

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Now why bother doing this? Elders can cast LD natively with just a skull staff, which is half the gems. Obviously there's some reason, or Norfleet wouldn't do it, but it's not immediately obvious to me...

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

It costs only 5 fatigue, instead of 10, so the DE will get 5 more back every time it casts. It will also probably be much more likely to use the banner.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Or because he got to con 6 before he reseached Drain Life.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Fascinating. I too want to steer clear of anything accusative, but this has got me thinking to what would or would not be possible if anyone should discover how to hack the .2h file.

Most game state information is going to be on the server, but the one thing that the server needs from the client is unit orders.

Suppose I was able to alter my .2h file so that my indy commander (say) had the order "Forge Ring of Wizardry". It would be hard or impossible for the server to calculate whether I had actually spent gems in the process, and it probably doesn't check to see if the commander had astral level 5 either, as it trusts the Dominions client to check that sort of thing. Comments?

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

You would need the fatherland file to do this type of thing. Unless Norfleet has access to the Fatherland file then it is a hard thing for him to generate cheat hacks with just the 2h file.

This thread is a hair from being closed, for any interested parties, you can discuss it at/around your own watering holes for anything personal or inflammatory. Or, for even more drastic measures of accusatory cheating, try sending the fatherland file and 2h files from the server (I assume Mosenhansen) to IW for a looksy. Their Email is info@illwinter.com

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Are you sure? That was my point, really, that only the state of the game between turns can be stored in the ftherlnd file. Unit orders appear only in the .2h file, and it's hard to tell from the game state whether they were issued legally.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

From my tweaking with 2h files, I have found they go corrupted or are overwritten by the fatherland file on turn generation. Though *concievably* (as in, a meteor is going to crash into the earth ... tommorow concievably) you might be able to change it and make it not be overlapped by the fatherland file turn generation or force it to generate a certain type or thing. But I don't know for sure and anything is possible.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

You exaggerate: Let me run the breakdown for you.

3 Wraith Consuls: 35D apiece x 3 = 105D
2 Bane Lords: 10D apiece x 2 = 20D
5 Wraith Swords: 7D apiece x 5 = 35D
3 Dusk Elders: 20D apiece x 3 = 60D
3 Banners: 15D apiece x 3 = 45D

Total: 320 D

4 Starshines(one Banelord is hatless due to lack of funding): 7S * 4 = 28S
5 AMA and 5 Pendants: 6S * 5 = 30S OR 10S * 5 = 50S
(real cost somewhere in between - item is cheap, astral abundant, lack of hammers, not always hammerforged)

Total: 58 to 78 S

Jade Armor: (3E + 3W) * 5 = 15E + 15W OR (5E + 5W) * 5 = 25E + 25W
Wing Shoes: 3A * 5 OR 5A * 5 = 15 to 25 A

Total: 15-25E, 15-25W, 15-25A

Total: 423-473 Gems

As you can see, it hits 470 gems only by the pessimistic outcome. Death gems represent the bulk of the expense, and that's the real issue to focus on, as the other gems represent chump change, and the second largest expenditure, unsurprisingly, is astral. Gee, where do you think THAT comes from?

You are ignoring the following:

1. Explicit gem income represents the minority of my gem income: I tend to dislike reliance on explicit income due to the fact that it reveals one's hand in a scoregraphed game. Therefore, I deliberately conceal income through the use of the tactic you so despise, clamming, and fetishing.

2. Luck bonus: Ermor is Turmoil and Luck. I am hit with 2-3 randoms a turn, every turn, the entire game. Having half of your (zero) population die in a "get free death gems" event is pretty cool. Finding fistloads of gems is sweet, especially when they start the clamforge. $1500 free = 3 free castles.

3. Geography: I started in the east-central flatlands of Karan. Many plains. Good population, at least a dozen 10K+ provinces to burninate.

4. Raven Feast: My second research target pursued alongside construction was Conjuration. An average feasting yields 40D, and I'm creating both corpses to feast, and revenue, through burninating the countryside.

5. Natural income: My average income has fluctuated between $200-350 a turn. This represents a castle or temple every turn or two, as I do not pay noticeable upkeep nor recruit.

6. Alchemy: Surprisingly, luck has been with me this game. I have not had to alchemize many gems.

If they sent you everything, they are very clueless. Furthermore, being newbies, they are not really familiar with gem generators, and they have not searched much. The contributions they send you are negligible. Their military efforts have been similarly humorous, as they've lost entire armies to construction teams and fly-by shootings. I have mostly ignored them.

This single battle. Not just any ordinary battle, but the Big One. I committed everything I had on the tap at the time. That was the entire elite guard.

You're forgetting that I wrote the BOOK on Ermorian Clam Hoarding. Alas, it was rejected by the publisher, so it's not available for public consumption. But who was it who brought the clam-hoarding matter to prominence on the chat? What was I playing at the time? That's what I thought.

That was several months ago. The undead never rest. Do you think I haven't refined my crude newbie methods of yore in the course of SEVERAL MONTHS? This inquisition is absurd. Can't you just accept your loss?

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

You should probably add in the cost of the hammers (plural since I don't think one hammer would have supported that many discounted items).

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

It would definitely check if you spent the gems in the process, since gem-spending counts are a part of the cheat detection as of 2.12. I can't imagine how you would manage to do this, however, because the files are encrypted and checksummed, nor what purpose it would serve, since the alarm would be sounded. At the moment, the alarm is actually rather overzealous.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Yes, but the hammer cost is unimportant to the accounting of what was used at the battle. Vanheim should have hammers also.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

No, Stormbinder was calculating how many gems you must have spent to put that battle together, and that cost includes the cost of the hammers.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

However, the hammers were not brought to the battle. They are also used for other purposes, and are only borrowed to forge armaments. If you want to confuse the matter some more, at least one of those items was stolen from an indy, and another one was an inheritance from a recently deceased prince. I can't remember which one was which, though, but they weren't very expensive items anyway.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

So how do you make any fetishes or clams without using your pretender for nothing other than searching and forging?

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Not the point. Stormbinder was calculating the cost of fielding that force, not the total value of items actually on the battlefield. His problem being that he could not see how you could have accumulated the total number of gems required.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Yes, but since the hammers are already part of an auxiliary machine, namely, the clam and fetish forge, which in turn is actually supplying the ability to afford this crap, borrowing them does not carry a calculable added cost, and I'm not prepared to laboriously bean-count my entire empire. That's just way too much work to appease some sour grapes.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Stormbinder,

how lame. I mean really. You must be hanging your head in shame. Everyone in the game allies against one player on turn 22 and they lose. Even worse you come to talk about it?

Amazing.

If I was norfleet I would be pissed off that a game was so rigged against him. But he clearly does not get as upset about dogpiling as I do.

I have no idea how it is possible that he had so many gems but he did an you lost. Take it like a man.

Actually that's being nice about the whole deal. I mean if you had dogpiled me like that and I had won I would say : "eat it, *****." I mean, god, what a horrible way to play a game.

Actually checksumming and encryption if done on the client ( and in this case it has to be ) is the incorrect route to take to make cheating impossible. The correct route to take is to simily have the .2h file contain the orders from the turn and for the server to validate. I'm sure IW knows this and I would guess this is what they have done.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

The impression I get from Stormbinder's report:

is that the alliance against Norfleet is only 7 turns old, and that it formed in response to Ermor's graphs going ballistic. That's not "rigging" a game, it's ganging up on the clear leader, which is appropriate and something everyone does.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

To be fair, they WERE newbies, some in their first MP game, and their contribution could not have amounted to more than "negligible". If I had been in Storm's shoes, I'd have either alternatively ignored, or attacked for the territory, depending on exact positioning. If I were in Storm's shoes, I would also want to wash my feet after taking them off.

Eh, when you're Ermor, that's par for the course. You sorta expect this when you're against the fearmongers who think Ermor will be unstoppable later.

Well, at the moment, he's procrastinating interminably instead of taking his damn turn, or at least having the decency to go AI. Instead, he makes up rumors about the other players wanting to concede as well, although none of them have responded to corroborate this, and then drags his feet, even though his turn can't possibly take more than 30 seconds if he was REALLY conceding defeat. Deliberate procrastination to stall the game is very dishonorable.

That's done also, and was tightened even more as of 2.12, which surely complicates life even more for the would-be cheater. Sucks to be them, heh.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

First, thanks to everybody for keeping this thread polite. The purpose of it is purely informative, and I don't want to see any flames anywhere around it. So please keep strictly to the numbers and informative discussions.

Now let's talk about some numbers:




No, I do not exaggerate. I said that " 470 gems is the total cost of summons and items without using the Dwarven Hammer ", and I have said that "using the hammers on some items will lower the total cost, by not by too much".
Your numbers show that this is correct. Based upon your description on what you have used your hammers upon, the total cost of gems and summons used by your empire would be about 440 gems total. Thank you for confirming it.

Honestly I don't know. That's why I am asking you. But it is clear that you are hinting to massive use of Clams. I have no doubt that you have some clams at this point. However it is clear that it could not be easy for you to clamhoard as Soul Gate Ermor.

First - your only stable water income or astral income in this game (exculding astral income from clams later on) did not come until 7 turns ago, because you didn't search for *any* sites until 7 turns ago, for the first 15 turns of this game. The graphs show it very clear.

Second - the only mage capable of clamhoarding that you had in the begining was your own pretender. And I am sure your GK pretender with 6 schools of magic at level 4-5 would have better thing to do than to forge clams every turn. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Based upon reports of your neigbors scouts, as wel as my own scouts, your GK spend most of his time conquering indep provinces, as should be expected.


You only other realistic option to make clams would be to wait until your reach Con6 and than make water braclet for those Dusk Elders who have water 1 as their single random pick. Going to the extremes like forging Water Robe(20 water gems, 15 with Hammer) or empowering your Dusk elder to water 2 (30 water gems) would not be economicaly feasable by turn 22.

This, and the fact that you had zero astral or water income from the sites (just because you didn't search for any sites until 7 turns ago), means that you could not possibly produce a lot of clams by now, and therefore could not have a lot of astral income from them yet.

Do you agree with these observations?

Norfleet, it has nothing to do with me. I am just interested in some specific in-game questions, that's all.

You mentioned Claming and Fetishing. Do you mean that by now, the current turn 23, you have a lot of both Clams and Fetishes? If so, that please give us some numbers, since otherwise these are just general statements that doesn't tell much.

And don't worry, I am not asking you to count each and every clam and fetish in the game (although you are most likey to keep them in just one or two places, since there is no point of spreading them around, at least at this stage of the game). Instead all you need to do is to do a "pool" command on Fire and Astral, that just distract two numbers from each other. Very simple, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif If you already did "pooling" in this turn and pooled all your gems in your treasury - it is not a problem either. You can use "unmake changes made this turn" command (that you can just use "quit without saving" so your original turn would be preserved) and do "pool" again. Or you can just give us aproximate number.

So - how many Clams and how many Fetishes do you have in your Empire by now, turn 23? Aproximate number is ok, if you can't calculate the exact number.

How many 1500$ events did you have in this game? And are you saying that all money to fund your 20 or more castles (450GP each), with the aproximately the same amount of temples and laboratories (200+200 GP each), came from the random events?

Also do I understand you correctly, that you are saying that you didn't use alchemy to fund these constructions? I though you have said yesterday that:
"When I alchemized to fund the construction of my buildings, I mostly used firegems from my fetishes". Is it correct?

I am just trying to make sure that I understand you correctly.


Puting "average 40 Death gems yield" claim aside - how many Air 4 Casters capable of casting Raven Feast spell do you have? Air 4 is very hard to get for Soul Gate Ermor early on in the game. Or are you using your pretender to cast these Raven Feasts?

Also how many Raven Faests total have you casted by now? Again, you may give aprox. number if you have to.

The information about your income is correct. Although you average money income per turn for the duration of the game (your total money income devided by the number of the turns) is in 200-250GP range, as it can be clearly seen from the graphs.


So please tell how many castles you have by now, turn 23? And I assume you have both temples and labs in almost all of your castles, correct? Again, please feel free to correct me if I am wrong, I am just trying to make sure that I understand your explanations correctly.


This is correct Norfleet. In fact it was the first MP game for all of them except Cohen. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif The gem income that they have been sending me was mostly from their capitals. I've choosed to spend a huge ammount of time explaining a lot of things about Dom2 to them in emails ang guiding them, instead of "crushing them under my feet", as you said you would did in my place, and they all are very grateful.

Nevertheless, they all (except Abysia, which was controlled by Cohen who knows how to search) have been sending me all their gems for the durations of the game. That's why, as I said earlier, without their contributions my total gem income from the magic sites was about 60% of yours, and with their 3 nations sending me all their gems it was about 70% of yours.

Speaking of which - please tell me what is your current regular gem income from the magic sites, without clams/fetishes?

And how much of this is Death gems income?

I agree, this was an important battle. You have eliminted the only force who came even close of treatining you, and with wining this battle you have won the game. My congratulations.

However my point was that you have used 470 gems worth of summons and equimpent in this battle, or 440 gems asuming use of Dwarven Hammer to forge expensive parts, as you said you did.

My entire gem income from magic sites for the duration of the game, which is based upon graphs, including all gems send me by 4 other nations ) could barely cover half of these gems.


However, what is much more important, that if my guess is correct, you may have as much as 1500 gems worth of summons and equipment elsewhere in your Empire, in addition to the 440 gems you have demostrated with just 8 of your commanders, that you used in this battle.


Is this correct?


Excellent. I am glad to hear it. Than I am sure you'll have no problems answering these simple, polite and specific questions that I wrote above. I am looking forward to hearing your responses.

With best regards,
Stormbinder

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Actually, the first sign of this was when I attained sufficient astral income to do acashic scanning. Prior to that, my income was tapped out for either reverse-alchemy or forging. It's only recently that I could afford the surplus, and had enough mountainous terrain to sack.

D3W with a bracelet. Not hard to do.

Con-6 was my first research target. I hit that milestone a long while ago, and with the on-stock I had from being socked with randoms, immediately set to work with it.

Depends on how you define "a lot". Is a figure somewhere between 30 and 40 a lot? I don't happen to have, or want to give, any more exact numbers on a game in progress, even if you, personally, think it's over for you. Until everyone else formally surrenders, the fight remains on. Speaking of which, do try and take your turn. Go AI, if you wish. This shouldn't take you too long unless you're trying to stall.

Several. At least 2 or 3 of those, perhaps more, with a fistful of lesser takes.

Incorrect: I said alchemy did not constitute the bulk of my gold production, and when needed, it was primarily fetish-based.

Sorcereii.

I am not a beancounter that dwells in the past. I have many games to play, many of which blur together, and I have honestly have no recollection of exactly how many times I have cast it.


So there you have it. 200-250 as an average, with peak takes up near the 350 range. This does not include my pillage income at all, as this is unlisted, and, in fact, my income was able to hold in this range in spite of pillage losses, dominion killoff, and mounting unrest. Truly a testimony to the formerly wealthy state of the lands I hold.

I am not going to beancount castles for you, sorry. I rejected this when you proposed this method of castle-limitation before, and I'm not going to try and count them now.


I do not care to discuss this matter at this time. This will have to wait.

Yes, but of those, my supply is primarily limited by the Death supply. As you saw in the accounting above, the gems of other types are of low usage and can easily be accounted for.

I doubt it's that high. You do tend to exaggerate a little, and I am not going to beancount every Last commander. This is a waste of my time, and I have wasted enough time with this.

Everyone ELSE I have talked to finds my explanations to be quite plausible. I have been more than accomodating, and now the amount of time and energy I'm willing to devote to conversing with you about the matter is exhausted. Arguing with you is tiresome and unpleasant, this forum hurts my eyes, and I am not as young as I once was. I have already unwillingly belabored the point at excessive length, and I'm sick of it. This inquisition is over. Leave me in peace, and either do your turn, or leave the game.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Raven Feast gives 40 D gems?

Quite strange really.
For what I know, the meximum amout of gems I got from it is 12 Death.
12 Death with 1200 corpses about, obtained into a 12000 pop province, pillaged and under Ermor domain.
This bring down the population to 5000 about, to have such many corpses.

Even more it's an A4 spell, costing 5 A Gems.
Apart from Pretender, how many mages belonging to Ermor could cast it?

In fact I believe it's a spell for air nations that need to boost their death income. However this Last phrase is only a my opinion.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Not exactly. To make a braclet you need a Con 6. That's 600 RPs. (20+40+60+100+160+260) It is not even *technically* possible to do as Soul Gate Ermor on Magic 3 before at least turn 10, and your reseach graphs confirm it. It is now turn 22. Are you saying that you did not build any Clams before at least turn 11 (+1 turn to make a braclets), probably later? And you have said you used hammers to forge a lot of your equipment, including probably your clams. How many Dwarven Hammers do you have?


Hmmm. Did you mean you have between 30 and 40 Clams and Fetishes together, or between 30 and 40 Fetishes and between 30 and 40 Clams? If you mean together, than it is not that much.


All right, point taken. So how many Fetishes you have now, to sub your massive castle constructions? The approximate number is fine.


I assume you mean Sorceress? How many sorceress with Air 4 do you have now? Is she lucky Air 2 with Winged Helmet and Bag of Winds?

That's ok, I am not asking you a specific number. Can you at least recollect if you have casted it in once per 2 turns in average? Once per 3 turns? Every turn?



Norfleet, you can't have that many castles, and they are easy to count. It will not take you more than 30 seconds, you have spend *much* more time writing these answers. Or is it another information that you have chosen not to reveal before the game is officially over? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Norfleet, please. You are in the game with 3 absolute newbies, for whom it is the first game, and with Cohen's Abyssia who is not nearly in the position to threaten you, who have no army, and whose gem income, territory, castles, research are totally inferior to you, and whose only SC (his pretender) was killed by you and came back hopelessly crippled and unfit for any battle. All other players together do not constitute even 5% of the force that you posses, and they all perfectly aware of this fact. So please don't worry about revealing any strategic secrets, especially when I am asking you about information that is visible from the graphs to everybody, like your magic sites current income. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif


So please tell us what is your current gem income from the magic sites, and how much of it are in form of Death gems?


No, I haven't seen it, sorry. How could I see it if you are avoiding to give me any of the numbers that I am asking for? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif So far all your responses where I asked for some numbers (with the exception of clams/fetishes, and I still don't know what you mean, please clarify it) were "I don't remember", "I don't care to beancount", "It is a secret". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Again, I am not asking for hard numbers where it is hard to count, or when you don't remember. Approximate number would be just fine.


Hmmm. You think I tend exaggerate a little? So do you think your actual number of gems is lower? Ok, what is it that? Again, don't bean count, just rough estimate would be enough. 1000 more death gems, in addition to 440 gems used in that battle? 500 more gems? 100 more? Or you are not using Dusk Elders worth 20 gems each and Spectral Mages worth 10 death gems each, with maybe some Skull Mentors (10 gems without hammer, 7 gems with hammer) to get that fantastically high research that you have, based upon graphs? Unlike gems and money that you can get from random events, the extra research can not received from the random events, even on luck 2. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Bottom line Norfleet, if I am missing something here please correct me. I freely admit that I am not an expert on Ermor, unlike yourself, who have a lot of experience with this nation. So in case I am somehow mistaken here, I am eager to learn. Maybe you are currently using non-summoned mages for large part of your huge research, that didn't cost you gems but just money to hire and small upkeep? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif


As you have seen, I have been staying extremely polite toward you here, and I am not implying anything. I just totally confused by the numbers, and would like to hear your explanation how did you manage to do it? Other 4 players in this game are very interested in this as well, and they would like very much to hear your answers. We are just genially confused and don't understand what we are seeing in our game. So we are asking you to explain, now that you have won this game, as all of us can see.


I hope you understand me correctly. I am not implying anything here. I was very polite to you. All I want to hear is an explanation and answers for these very simple and very polite questions. As you can see from this thread, other forum regulars would like to know more about it too.


From myself, I can promise you that: if you'll answer these very simple questions, I will do what you have been urging me to do all along, meaning I will stop stalling the game and will continue it, despite the fact that you have destroyed my only army and that I have no chance in hell against Ermor at this point, just like everybody else in our game(unless of course you prefer that I go AI). At the very least if it'll become too distressing for me to continue I will find human sub for myself(I have a friend who love hopeless challenges, and who is semi-decent in Dom2, after 2 months of playing it. ( I think he is a bit masochistic, so he may even enjoy it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ).

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Are you seriously expecting us to believe that you've had enough random water and astral gems to forge 30-40 clams and using only your pretender and one or two dusk elders since the start of the game?

Actually, it's quite hard to do, since it represents another 160 death gems spent for each one, and you either brought them along with you in that battle, or you happen to have even _more_ summons in your capital.

Once again, you will not have gotten more than 20 or 30 death gems from random events, so there is no way that you could research to construction 6 before turn 15 at the earliest as Soul Gate with no gem income other than your capital.

Yes, that represents another 200-400 gems that you have to have received from somewhere, and haven't yet accounted for.

So you've performed the equivalent of winning a lottery three times? That's almost beyond being lucky.

Which only your pretender could have forged, along with most of your clams. You can't have had too many fetishes by this point.

Beancount? That's a 15 second count to find out how many you have built.

You say that you have two or three hammers. That's at least 20 earth gems, since you claimed that you found two, so you've spent between 30-60 earth gems on those. You've spent somewhere around 200-400 gems on clams and fetishes. You've also spent an unknown, but large amount on researchers. In short, you've not been able to account for all the gems you've spent, and we are wonodering where they came from.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Sorcereii don't have to be lucky to be Air-2. They come that way out of the box. How many I have? That's a subject that I don't wish to share with you.

So now you're trying to hold the game ransom in exchange for the option to continue to interrogate and harass me after I have already indicated that I tire of this inquisition, and do not intend to answer any more questions on the matter. I have already told you enough.

Suffice it to say that my luck in this particular game has been exceedingly nice, more so than usual, and that continuing this interrogation is only going to make me more irritable and even less inclined to share in the future. I addressed this matter with you privately already, and I do not appreciate you refusing to accept the answers, and instead taking this into a public inquisition.

Maybe if you were somebody I actually liked, I'd be more willing to share, but no, you're somebody who has harassed me at every opportunity and now that you want something from me, for whatever reason, you're suddenly pretending to be polite. It won't work. I see this clearly now that I have gotten some rest. This discussion is OVER. No further questions.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Seriously. There seems to be a slightly accusatory tone here, but really I think the question is...

Teach us?

I have no reason to think that there has been any foul play here. It is well known that Norfleet is a superior player and that he has a huge amount of free time. Clearly this is an advanced strategy.

So I say ante up! Norfleet, you must have hit on some strategies (and some luck) that completely eludes even the
more experienced players.

I'd like to know how to do it.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Nope the whiner has already explained how it is TOTALLY rigged and he lost. Now he is mad since he had this plot to rig the game and Norfleet crushed him like an insect. Also note that the "alliance" is supposedly 7 turns old that means that it started at a minimum on turn 15. However another quote shows that it started much earlier:

BWHAHAHAHAHA! And he did not attempt to rig the game? Please.

AND HE STILL LOST. BWHAHAHAHAHA!

Honestly whiner, give it up man. You are accusing someone of cheating when you totally rigged a game. I think that wins the prize for losing in internet game! Congratulations! You WIN MAN! No one has ever lost so hard, ever. WAY TO GO!

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

That reminds me of a guy I pummelled 80 to -6 once in Jedi Knight, using a myriad variety of crappy weapons like the stormtrooper bLaster, my bare hands, and, my most deadly weapon of all, sitting still and watching my opponent kill himself in an attempt to trap me. Ah, happier times. But at least he took his beating like a man.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Maybe some people ought to stick to Checkers? (Hey, how did you manage to jump three of my pieces! That seems unreasonable!)

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

The full game with fatherland file has been recieved. We have checked for gem usage inconsistencies. Here are some numbers.

***

Summoned commanders (cost in gems):
4 Wraith Senator (100 D)
3 Spectator (36 D)
46 Dusk Elders (920 D)
- 2 empowered 1 step (60)
- 1 empowered 2 steps (75)
- 2 empowered in new paths (100)
27 Spectral Mages (270 D)
- 2 empowered from 2 to 3 (90 D)
3 Wraith Consuls (105 D)
2 Bane Lords (10 D)
2 Queen of Elemental Air (100 A)

This sums up to
1531 Death gems
100 Air gems
135 gems for empowerment

Norfleet the Ghost King - F4A5W4E4D5N3 (?)

Some items:
- 9 Wraith swords, 3 standard of damned (150 D * 0.75)
- 18 Dwarven Hammers
- 35 Clams
- no fever fetishes at a quick glance (one being made)

Gem income: 55 (15 Death) + 35 clam pearls

Sorceresses: none

***

Regarding Raven Feast. sqrt(unburied)/3 = gems.
Thus 14.400 unburied (pop loss of 144.000) needed for 40 death gems.


Keep further discussions on the matter civil, please.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

BUSTED!

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Isn't 325 gems of Empowerment and not 135 ???

After, I didn't understood very well the formula for Raven Feast, even if I've done some trials.

May Illwinter Staff tells us the results of the check of unconsistencies?

Norfleet\'s Ermor in Tournament game - exposed!
 

All right guys.

Time to tell the truth.

Each and every word that Norfleet have uttered in this thread was a lie. We have iron proof of it.

Norfleet has somehow managed to cheat in out tournament game. Cheated HUGE way. His gem counts are beyond wildest dreams.

But he had made three fatal mistakes, that were his undoing. He should never play with graphs turned ON (and he almost never does, now we know why). He should not be *that* greedy when cheating. And he forgot that we have Master Password ON in this game. (actually I forgot about it myself originally http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ). But after Last turn, when he demonstrated small glimpse at his gem count, and I have become very suspicious, we all (5 other nations) agreed that the game is lost and we are ready to admit defeat. So we have looked in his file to make sure that there is nothing fishy there. What we discovered was absolutely struggling.

In this MP game, with regular settings, Ermor's file shows that he at this moment, by turn 23, he verifiably has 4861 gems worth of summons, gems and equipments!!!

He has almost 850 none-death gems in his treasury alone, while having virtually no regular gem income whatsoever. (He currently has 36 none death income this turn, and he had ZERO no-death income 7 turns ago). And no, they are not Astral and has nothing to do with his Clams, since he only have grand total 24 of them, and making them 6 clams per turn atm http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif )


Kristoffer's numbers are correct but not complete. The total numbers are much higher.

I have spend 4 hours analyzing Norfleet's file *very* carefully and I have double checking everything, when we got this file few days ago. Mose had made a copy of this file, in case Norfleet will try to "hack" it once again and he send it to Illwinter. Here is the complete breakdown of most important numbers for you:

At this moment, on turn 23, Norfleet verifiably has:

2890 gems worth of none-death gems in equipments, summons, treasury.

That includes: 1395 gems worth of none-death equipments, 875 none-death gems in Gem Vault, 100 gems in summons (2 AQs), 270 none-death gems worth of Empowering Dusk Elders (empowering: 2x30 Earth, 50 Nature, 80 Air, 30 Astral, 50 gems of unknown none-death type), 250 gems for casting 10 Archaic Records (only for the Last 7 turns, you can guess why http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif ). Up until 7 turns ago, he had ZERO none death gems income, and only had death income from his capital

At this moment, on turn 23, Norfleet verifiably has:



1956 gems worth of death gems in equipments, summons, treasury.

That includes: 1705 death gems in summons, including:

46 Dusk Elders
28 Spectral Mages
7 Wraith Senators
3 Wraith Councils
1 Wraith Centurion
13 Shadow Tributes
5 Spectators
2 Banelords

Other death gems usages verifiably visible from Ermor's file are: 225 death gems in equipment, 26 death gems in vault, 15 death spells casted this turn (3xArouse Hungers). total death count is 1956, by turn 23. Total death gem income on turn 23 is +15, out of each +10 was from his capital. He didn't even bother to search any of his lands for death gems, until 7 turns ago, when he started to try to cover his trails, to avoid looking too suspicious to other players. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Together it is 2890 none death gems and 1956 death gems by turn 23, grand total 4861 gems. And this is only things visible and verifiable now from his file during this current turn.

His grand total gem income on this turn 23, is +36 in no death gems, +15 death income(including +10 from his capital). 7 turns ago, and for the first 15 turns of this game, he had ZERO none capital regular income. And he currently has 24 clams on his commanders. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif It is very obvious he started making them 4 turns ago (he made 6 this turn). You can guess why . http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


In all his "explanations" above, Norfleet lied through the roof.

Norfleet has paid for 26 castles (450 GP each, 23 labs, 23 temples, total 20900 GP worth of buildings by turn 23.) His average monthly income for this game was 200 GP per turn.


Few more points, although they are completely unnecessary of course. He does have 19(!) Dwarven Hammers though, on turn 23. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif He also have at least 200 more earth gems worth of empowering Earth and , total 600+ Earth gems alone. His grand total earth income for the duration of the game is 18 Earth gems [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] (he currently has +5 Earth income, and had zero 7 turns ago)

His grand total gem income for the duration of the game, from all magic sites was 346 gems. Of this he only "officially" had 126 none death income, grand total http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif That leaves 2890 - 126 = 2764 None death gems totally unexplained. His 24 clams, even if he had them all on turn 1, could only produce 528 astral gems. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif He had no other item or creature related sources of gems.

He also has no sites that give any type of bonus, for forging or for magic schools.



Norfleet said he used fetishes to fund his Castle/building construction, worth 20900 gold.
He has ZERO fetishes.

Norfleet said he got his Death gems by using his Raven Feasts with his A4 Sorceresses.
He has ZERO Sorceresses, A4 or any other types.

I can go on and on for a long time, but that's enough.

You now has the numbers now.


At this moment, turn 23, Ermor has *at least* 4515 gems completely unaccounted for. (4861-346). That's 205 "extra" gems per turn, for first 22 turn.

I am not even talking of 900 "bonus" gold per turn, for 22 turns.

He has only ONE mage capable of casting Raven Feasts.
Most of these "bonus" gems are NOT death gems. He has practically no gem income, very few clams, zero fetishes, zero blood stone gems, zero bonus sites.


All I can say we are very lucky that we have discovered this thing so early, on turn 23. In 40 more turns it would be almost impossible to proof, and most of you would say " Oh yeah, that's just Stormbinder accursing Norfleet of cheating once again", “Oh well, that’s just a sore loser syndrom” http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Just like Cainehill already managed to do even on this thread… http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif



Also we are very lucky that this time Norfleet was forced to play with graphs, which he always said he hates (surprise!) , that he forgot that we have master password and that he didn't expect the game to be finished so early. I also what to thank Archaeolept for giving me idea about master password, after Norfleet refused to show us his file, to Cohen for sharing master password with us and contacting Mose, to Mose for all he have done to help us expose this ugly cheating, to Illwinter to taking the matter very seriously and posting the results here and to Zen for allowing to keep this thread on the board despite his initial suspicions.


I have promised I'll keep it to pure numbers. Now you have all numbers I can give to you. You do the thinking.


With best regards,
Stormbinder

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

yes, well.

I guess I can't say its much of a surprise. just a bit sad.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

The real truth is stranger than the cover, and by far less plausible. I wouldn't believe it myself, and it's not something I control. Suffice it to say I am leaving Dominions II, as no explanation is going to satisfy you.

Goodbye.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Oh, you tease. Now everyone's all curious.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

people seem remarkably unconcerned about this

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

Many people suspected Norfleet of cheating already. In my case, I only played one game with him (he set off the cheat detection, heh). So whether he was cheating or not didn't bother me much.

One way or another, it's not a surprise to very many people that would be upset by it.

Re: Ermor in Battlefield 2nd Tournament game
 

That was an entirely unrelated glitch. However, since Stormbind is having such a bLast, I'll just set my avatar up so he can laugh all he wants. I won't be around to care anyway.