So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Well THAT was disturbing and unpleasant.

I hope someone explains it all to us someday.

*sigh*

impressive but scary

Even dogs won't sh*t where they eat.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Definitely better drama than we have had lately...

Would be nice if whoever closed it posted a Last message to the thread explaining why it was closed...not saying it was wrong to close but some kind of note would be nice.

- Kel

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I think it was probably closed to soon. I understand people don't want a flame war, but this is about as serious as you can get concerning a multiplayer video game. In a tournament game, no less.

I think a lot of people had things they would like to say. I had written up a message to post, only to discover the thread was locked while I was writing it.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

if i were to speculate, it was closed because storm changed the title to something akin to "nyah nyah nyah norfleet's a dirty cheater", when the thread only existed on zen's suffrance, due to likely flaming and insults.

malt, if you have something thought out, pls post it here. as long as people remain civil things should be fine, i think.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Well this is the message I was set to post:

---------------------------------------------------

It is a real shame. Cheating is such a hollow victory, it doesn't even seem worth doing.

If you count how many hours you spend on a typical game (days of your life) it is extemely hurtful to have that time wasted by someone who is not playing fairly.

A lot people have very mixed feeling about Norfleet, but in general I think many people (including myself) respected him for his knowledge and skill in winning his games.

But now who knows how many other games he never would have won unless he he gave himself a slight (undetectable) advantage. Seriously, if he would have only cheated 1/10 as much in this game it would have gone unnoticed, but still would have been a tremendous advantage.

I am just very thankful that most of the community here would never dream of cheating in this way. I mean we are not 14 year old kids screaming obcenities, dissing each other mothers, and fragging each other in some 3D shooting game.

It has amazed me how technically savy, proffesional, friendly, intelligent, and open the typical Dominions player is. I hope our community can stay this way.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

The method of cheating isnt going to be discussed. A flame war serves no purpose on the board. Im not sure what else there is to discuss.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Certainly a flame war serves no purpose.

Norfleet was an extremely prominent member of this forum. He posted nearly 2500 Messages, and had many positive contributions to the community. Its not like it was some unknown person.

Not talking about it, doesn't mean it didn't happen.
It just seems like some people might have some thoughts they want to share.

It seems fair to me...


Anyways... I've said my piece, I can fall back into the shadows and continue my normally lurking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Very good post Maltrease.

I also can't possibly understand what kind of pleasure the person can get from such hollow victories? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Especially considering such long hours(days) all of us invest in typical MP Dom2 game.

I also have a strong hope that our fellow players community will be better from now on, with this matter brought to the closure. I know I've participated in a lot of flamewars directed at Norfleet myself, together with other players. You know, now that I think about it, I can not think of any good explanation why I would feel such a strong negative emotions toward that person. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Something about him ruining my game and his personality in general annoyed me to no end. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/crazy.gif[/img] I went overboard several times in the past because of it, unable to fully control my feelings.

It's very strange, considering that I am in RL mature and adult person and should know better that to have such feeling toward some anonymous person on the internet over a computer game. Maybe part of the reason is that, as Mal said, we are investing so much of our time into this game, that it become very personal. I don't know...

Anyway, I am glad to see this Norfleet's saga finally finished, in such clear and satisfactory conclusion. I am also quite positive that none of us, Dom2 players, would think of trying to follow his footsteps. The community in general is nice, mature and intelligent. And Norfleet was...well, he was Norfleet.

Enough said.

Regards,
Stormbinder

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

My worry is that he's still here. Not called Norfleet.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

The thing that really stuns me is the massive level of disrespect heaped on the other players when someone pulls this crap. It says "Your time and effort mean nothing to me".

I guess that would be the logical extension of the Norfleet philosophy as has been expounded in so many other threads. Most notably in my mind, the "Sabre Cherry is NOT dead" thread from two months ago in which I believe I said that Norfleet's attitude was the "enemy of functional society."

But to be honest I respected the guy for his unwavering bull****. I really was expecting him to be able to prove his case and show us all a new amazing strategy for mass gem collection by Turn 20. I guess I should have learned from the style of diatribe in the whole GG fiasco. If one compares the retorts from that whole scandal, Norfleet and his alter-ego's tones at that time were amazingly similar to this week's.

I have to say I learned a lesson from this, again. Again meaning I guess I should have learned this one already... Don't trust anyone. Hmmm....

But wasn't that Norfleet's whole ethos?

The lesson is that people who think that no-one can be trusted, cannot themselves be trusted. One believes that society is a reflection of whatever world-view they have and they go out and manifest that reality upon others. Most people are reasonably good and consciencious. Be careful of anyone who tells you otherwise.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I would have liked to post the Last post, but in order to stop it before the replies went like wildfire, I closed the post.

If you feel this is unfair to the community then I am the one to blame.

A flame war, even if warranted (the flaming portion) is not something I would like to promote within the forum and have very actively attempting to avoid.

The point at which the thread name was changed, and the tone taken as obviously deragatory I closed it in the hope that the personal flames would not be kindled to childish levels. (Since Norfleet said he was leaving at least, that persona)

This does not mean I agree or disagree with either side of the coin (I am actually vehemenantly opposed to cheating in any form) but I don't want to turn it into a cruxification.

If you would like to talk about how cheating is possible, explainations, rational discussion about the act and not specifically flaming Norfleet for doing it (We all know it is wrong, underhanded, coincidentally timed and on my part, unexpected) or the reasoning behind it I am fine with such.

But as Norfleet has/is been a subject of repeated personal attacks I had no desire for things to spiral out of control while I had business to do and couldn't watch the forum like a hawk for a few hours.

Thank you for your willing or unwilling cooperation on this matter.

JB

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I was one of those Newbies in the game. It was one of my first MP games. Until things got out of hand, there was a great deal of excitement. The legions of death were HUGE and the rest of us were banding together to defeat the evil fetid empire. I came away learning to pick your fellow players carefully (even though I don’t know many of you yet). Also, Storm was very free with good advice in long emails that I have saved for the official archive. I expect that they will be coming out in his forthcoming strategy guide (hee hee), and I won’t do anything at this point to violate his future copyright, etc., etc. Anyway, it was fun while it Lasted, and now I am free for a new game! (Newbie lamb for slaughter & looking to sharpen my claws… any takers?) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

On the one hand Norfleet had the most deleted Posts, and generated the most deleted Posts, of anyone else in this forum. From his early standings on the subject of software cracking to his latest one of turn-file cracking.

HOWEVER he also generated more conversations, debates, discussions, polls, than anyone else (I believe ThinkTank might be second). When I was an old DnD game master I would survive such encounters by thinking "Well I am blessed for meeting such a unique person. What an interesting NPC he will make." The personality description on my NPC's were often just a name of someone I had once known which no one else seemed to get along with but I was always smiling thinking what a great NPC they would be.

What can I say? Im diplomatic.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I had always found Norfleet interesting. Certainly some of his views on life and other issues were different. But thats cause Norfleet is Norfleet, just as Gandalf is Gandalf, and I am... the mighty Maltrease.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Hold on. Was you in my "Song of Ice and Fire" game on GG that Norfleet have ruined, Demosthenes? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif If so, what was your nick there, on GG Boards? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Or did you just read our game thread and compared that alter ego with Norfleet, whom you know from shrapnels Boards?

But in any case, you are absolutely correct, they were very similar, depite their efforts. So I am not too concerned about Norfleet appearing under some other name anytime soon. If he will, we would likely to discover it pretty fast. If everything else fails, watch for some newbie who would write 2500 Posts in few months... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif





Indeed. Though my life I have came to the personal conclusion, that it is well worth to keep generaly good opinion about people around you, unitl they have proven otherwise. Sure, you'll certanly run in some jerk now and then, and may suffer as a result. But it is better than to become very suspisious toward all people, not trusting anyone and puting all kind of psyhological heavy defenses around you and shooting at everyone who dares come close... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

At least this is my opinion on this matter, and it have been working quite well for me.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Cool! Somebody else who explictly plays the "super rational" solution to the Prisoners' Dilemma. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Hmm. Now let's not go too far here. It seems to me that it may be a bit *too* much diplomatic approach Gandalf. It almost sounds like you are sorry to see Norfleet gone, after he was undenyably exposed as cheater. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img]


I mean - let's face it. The guy has certanly cheated in a large number of MP games he had played, possibly in all of them, although we will never know it for sure. He have hacked the very game whose forum you and Zen are moderating, and he have spoiled countless hours of playing experience for a lot of honest players and customers with his cheating.

Wouldn't you ban him for what he have done, if he would not quit himself after he was publicly exposed? In any computer MP game I have played so far, and I have played quite a few, the forums and Company's policy on the cheaters is very clear. They are baned. Yet here you sound almost as if you are sorry to have him gone after the fact that he is a cheater was exposed. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

I agree with some previous posters, I also find(or at least used to find before "Fire and Ice" game) Norfleet to be sometimes funny, usually in some perverted sort of way. Yet I strongly believe that the Moderators policy on the official board should be very clear on cheaters - they should be baned, period. No excusses. You don't want to send message to the community that it is ok to cheat, as long as you can post a lot of bull****, some of which maybe funny, 24h per day, do you?

Forgive me if I am blant here, but I think that aproaching the cheaters in "diplomatic" way is not a good idea. I know that you are nice and extremely helpful person Gandalf, but I just think that it is important that the position toward cheaters should be very clear and hard. Otherwise the MP community will go down the drain.

I hate to say but so far neither you not Zen have not made any official statements on this matter, other than locking my thread with no explanation to public.

Now, I understand very well that both you and Zen do not want any sort of flamewars on the board. But I don't think that just closing the thread with no final post explaining why it was closed, and later maintaining official silence on this matter is the right thing to do either.

/shrug Just my two cents.

Regards,
Stormbinder

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

To add an opinion: The Dominions-board will be much, much less interesting to read. I for one enjoyed his quips, attitude and witty remarks - stolen or not.

By the way, nowhere in the dev's Posts it's said that Norfleet hacked something. I certainly have no idea how to achieve those masses of gems, and I find it very unfortunate that Norfleet is not willing to share his side, though likely hard to believe.

*shrug*

It ain't over til the fat lady sings. But she probably missed a note right now.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I was not in that game. I was in Dom2 lurk mode for a while having been on vacation and pulled out of a few MP games at GG. I read all the pertaining threads at the time though. My point was that his method of defending himself was nearly identical in both instances. Vague responses and proud refusals to explain himself.

Hell I'm sad to see him gone too. The guy's crazy and quite possibly dangerous to others but he sure contributed a lot around here. I'd like him to visit and continue to discuss the game. He would have to of course be big enough to live with the reputation he has garnered and understand if he is not welcome in MP games, but that's life.

We haven't even heard his "honest" explanation. He said it was not something he could control. Those are serious words from Norfleet.

I think this may have to go in the "Wait and See" file for now.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

What do they say? Better the enemy you know than the one you dont know? There will always be "norfleets". Hmmmm how about that. He created a new word needing to be defined in the newbie guide. Im sure at some point someone will post something and the reply will be "dont be such a Norfleet".
For someone to norfleet, norfleeting, a norfleetism.

Also, as an internet admin managing many forums and Online games, I know that people sent away like this are rarely gone. They simply come back as someone else. Of course, the effort they take not to be recognized instantly means they must refrain from the actions that made them "go away" so the problem is fixed anyhow and not worth making too much effort to catch them at it.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I'm pretty amazed that you seem to think you have concrete and irrefutable proof in which to do a 'instant-right-now-banning'. Or you seem to want lightspeed 'justice' as far as how things are done. I'm sorry if deliberation as far as 'Should someone be IP Banned' from a forum that he is supposedly leaving in any regard is taking too long for you or feel you need a play by minute review of (if any) action that is taken or opinions expressed.

As far as I know, KO and JK have had a hard time accessing the Beta Forums since the upgrade and the Moderator Forum so the conversation could not even be held until that is fixed and they can view/access such Posts and 'evidence' presented.

I don't like your tone or implication one bit, with how much I've had to work with you Stormbinder, I'd think you'd give people a little more slack who have given you an incredible amount in the past and present.

If you want swift and heavy handed justice without proper consideration, I can certainly provide that in equal amounts on both sides of the coin in the future.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

[quote]


I was not in that game. I was in Dom2 lurk mode for a while having been on vacation and pulled out of a few MP games at GG. I read all the pertaining threads at the time though. My point was that his method of defending himself was nearly identical in both instances. Vague responses and proud refusals to explain himself.
[quote]


Gotcha. I though that maybe you are like our AhhhhFresh player in that game, who loves to have different nicks on different Boards. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif And yes, you are absolutely correct about similarities.

As for "something that he could not control" - I think he was refering to the voices in his head, telling him what he must do. AFAIK, half of the crazy guys have them... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Yeh. Someone definately doesn't believe in "innocent until proven guilty", or "beyond a reasonable doubt". After all - hypothetically, it'd be more likely that the host or the person with the master password was doing any digital manipulation of game files.

Or that a bombastic flake with an obsession and a grudge was framing someone. All that is hypothetical - but juries have acquitted on less grounds.

Speaking of people with obsessions - Stormbinder, stop sending me private Messages. I have told you this before : anything you want to say to me, say in public instead of whispering in my ear. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I certainly believe in "beyond a reasonable doubt", and that's where I find myself. The notion that Stormbinder would have the ability (no offense, Stormbinder) or motivation to fabricate files framing Norfleet is laughable.

What bothers me is the fact that Stormbinder has done so much work, resulting in such great benefit (assuming the popular conclusion is correct, which as I said seems beyond doubt) and yet is getting vilification instead of thanks. Puzzling and disturbing.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Sure. As a matter of fact, both me and Mose have conspired to frame poor and innocent Norfleet. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif But good old Cainehill is too smart for us, we could not fool him. <sob>

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Are you really interested? Consider this...
Maybe its because most people dont feel that the end justifies the means. In this case the means would be the tone and threads we all had to put up with. Norfleet may have been the one in the wrong, but the way such things were presented left more people on Norfleets side than on Stormbinders.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Considering this is coming from someone who 'Banned' Norfleet months ago, I would have to venture a guess that your mind was made up long before any 'proof' or 'hard work' was given. The problem with the bandwagon is it's always ready for more members, on their way to other places.

As I have said before, and maybe it's not being clear. IF: This is Cheating (which it appears to be at least to some) THEN: Some sort of 'official' action as far as forums go will be taken. IF: Illwinter and Co. feel the need or inclination to judge and lay down a punishment THEN: It will be administered and more than likely provided to the community though the reasoning or depth of the first IF may or may not be revealed.

If you want to take a guess at what stage this is in, look at the beginning.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I would also like to say, that cheating has been going on previous to this one incidient, by more than one person before in the past and more than likely will in the future. There is a reason that "Cheat Prevention" was implemented. Not some, by the fly "This would be a cool feature" type of decision. But one based on need.

So take it for what it's worth, but if Norfleet was cheating then he was most certainly not the first, and most certainly wasn't the Last, and most certainly was known about to a degree.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

i object. i spend half my life playing counter-strike http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

i for one am very sad to see norfleet gone. as a person, i really liked him, and it seemed to me he always contributed to the forums in a positive way. but then, i never had to suffer the indignity of playing against him and his 'cheats', in which case i might see things differently. i mean, when playing counter-strike, i always want to see cheaters/hackers hung from the ceiling by their balls.

who are you to talk about a grudge obsession? this coming from the guy who never passes up a chance to yell at Cohen, who even seems to have reformed now

imo norfleet's eagerness to leave is practically a confession. probably he will come back; i think he would be bored to death if he didnt play dom II. one can always hope that he will come back under a new name, continue contributing to the forums, but give up his cheating habits. unfortunately, that kind of thing never happens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

on a side note, what does the title of this thread refer to? 'Mets' meaning?

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

well of course ends justify means. what else could?

which isn't to say that the general implied point about tone and presentation on storm's part isn't w/out a lot of merit.

otoh, we might wonder why there was seemingly so little interest on the part of "the powers that be" (Moderators, beta testers, etc...) in the norfleet phenomenon - its not like there wasn't a tide of complaints about the overpoweredness of clams, of VQ's, of castling; all originating specifically in these games. No one thought that where there was so much smoke there might be fire? It has been months since those first examples of norfleetian excess. But the response of many was just to insist that there couldn't be a problem, whether the problem turned out to be norf or game mechanics, and to not even pursue any investigation into the source of all these complaints upon their own initiative.

storm may well have been distasteful in his public pursuit of norfleet, but in the end his hounding actually gave results.

personally, i'm glad to know that castling and clamming are likely not such big problems as they originally appeared to those many of us who experienced their supposed effects first hand. well, i believe zapmeister has actually played games w/ norfleet, unlike some others.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I'd have to say if Norfleet was cheating he either A.) Didn't give much credit to the people he was playing (considering his paranoia I'd not bet on this) or B.) Didn't care (that follows in with a conversation I had with him previous). Since it was such an obvious and easily trackable game that he was 'caught' in, on another's server, without hidden access to the game files, master password enabled, score graphs enabled, and others. If he really wanted to keep any sort of cheating on the down low, it would be uncommonly stupid to do it in an extreme that was not reasonably explainable with file proof.

Take it for what it's worth, but I doubt this 'situation' occured without cooperation from the perpetrator.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I deny that. I am not a witch-hunter, but I am prepared to accept what I regard as damning evidence when it's presented. Even if I don't like the person that's presenting it (which I do) or do like the person it's damning (which I admit I don't).

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

So have alot of others, though you may not care to consider that.

Also, if one cheats in one game, that must mean you cheat in every game from your very beginning to the very end, yes? Or more appropriately, if one has cheated, that means he has always cheated regardless of game(s)?

I'm not saying that he couldn't/wouldn't. But I doubt it could be said for every, *single* game.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Well certainly you feel the need to give accolades to something that is only circumstancial evidence. KO gave a breakdown, which is very damning in and of itself but could hardly be construed as 'irrefutable proof' especially considering that it hasn't been found out how to do it.

Until a way is found out how this is accomplished and can be understood I am more concerned with it's impact and not that it was done. Once it can be found out how to do it, either Gem Stockpile or Magic Item placement and then it could be said that /these are the weaknesses in the cheat prevention code/ and /with these weaknesses X is possible/ then I will say irrefutably that X = Cheating. And go from there.

If it's found that there is no sane way in which something like this could happen, or happen with only one parties participation I am not prepared to place full blame and furious witch hunting on any one individual.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I've played many games w/ norfleet. Unlike some who talk, I have experience of it. I have no vendetta against him, and actually have some fondness for him, but these apparent excesses are not new. your speculation that he set himself up to be caught, or something like it, is tenuous at best. perhaps he got overconfident, or bored, or took a calculated risk; or, most likely, to my eyes, could not not do it.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I've played games with him too, one under this name and a few under other names. Does that mean I can say that his clamhoarding and castling tactics are more/less abusive because I've seen them firsthand with/without cheating? Or does that mean that all those arguements from people who felt things overpowered are no longer valid at all because of the perpetuator was cheating and thus any arguements against him/them are tainted by cheating?

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

or course the previous arguments, which were based in the real experience of their effects, are tainted. to what degree is impossible to determine, however. But we made these arguments based on direct observation.

now, as to games you've played w/ norfleet, I can not say. The first MP game i was ever in you and norfleet were as well; however, I do not believe you directly encountered him during the duration of that blitz.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

One has to ask why he didn't forward his own .trn file to Illwinter, supporting his case for innocence and scoring an incredible coup against Stormbinder.

His actual behaviour was to mutter something about implausible events outside his control, withdraw from all games and disappear.

Circumstantial? Perhaps. But damning nonetheless.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

If he could not, not do it, as an obsession, I could see that maybe happening. Though from a logical perspective such a thing would more than likely be done in minute degrees in order to avoid detection from other players if he intended any serious sort of cheating.

For some reason, Calculated Risk doesn't seem fit when you consider the sheer numbers presented and their unfeasibility of explaining if one gets caught. Though it could be certain that overconfidance could play a part.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Days and days ago I Norfleet spoke to me in IRC saying he was tired of Dom2 and the drama/etc (During the entire Stormbinder v Norfleet Deathmatch or whatever it was during planning . I couldn't tell you which turn it was in that particular game but it says to me if you are tired of a game, and are not playing or don't intend to play or intend to play with another persona, you wouldn't care if you were caught cheating or not in that kind of circumstance. At least in my experience that is the case.

As for Norfleet not sending in his turn or 'defending himself' whatever conclusions you come up with are yours, there could be any number of reasons based on your own perspective, but the common consent is it didn't provide a majorly positive reaction.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I think the likely obsessive nature of it makes a certain truth of norfleet saying that it was not of his doing, that it was something beyond his control, which on the face of it seems a stretch.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Not sure what you mean by this. But I'm done on this topic, with my final comment being that if the possibility of fiddled files being sent to Illwinter is the only pro-Norfleet theory, then Esben Mose Hansen is part of the conspiracy:

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I mean. That no matter which way you look at it. Norfleet refusing to send his file or even continue discussion means there is no good way of looking at that refusal. Meaning it couldn't be construed as a Pro for Norfleet's Side of the Story.

I sincerely doubt Mose was apart of any conspiracy having to deal with this. Though, as I said before I find it very hard to see how you could cheat without the fatherland file, unless there is a way for a .trn or .2h to modify the structure of the fatherland to produce an effect.

It may be that there is some sort of ingame code weakness that allowed some in game command or combination of commands to produce some sort of gem production.

Or it could be a weakness in the Ebsen server and someone could hack into the server and adjust the fatherland file to their desire.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

well, in one of the "Retarded" games on mosehansen, Norfleet was able to perform the eminently useful task of force-hosting the game (as one of the participants had dissappeared w/out going AI) - an option that was not available publicly, certainly. I always had to wonder about the security of esben's server after that.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

Consider this Gandelf: If you personally would be on the receiving end of this crap in the first place, and had the game which you have created and invested so much of your personal time and energy ruined in such a way it was, maybe you would feel slightly different about it, don't you think? You know, it's always quite easy to judge about "ends" and "means" from the side. In fact, to be honest with you, my own position would be more similar to yours as well, if I would be in your shoes. But to be totally fair, you have to take into consideration the fact that it is hard to expect from the party which was on the receiving end of such things (twice by now), to remain 100% cool and calm and take everything with a good sense of humor. >;(

/Edited out a Personal Email from Kristoffer O./ - Zen


To Zen: I didn't suggested to you that you ban Norfleet before the Illwinter would take a chance to look and decide what's going on here. But I do feel that it may not be the best solution in this situation to just lock the thread with no explanation, as it was another silly flamewar and nothing more, instead of at least saying something on this matter before you lock it, even like posting your personal opinion. After all you are the most experienced player around, not just a forum moderator. You have read yourself blatant lies that Norfleet said about this game, answering my questions. You have read the numbers that KristoferO and me posted on the board. Do you honestly think that there is any way short of cheating to have 5000 gems in such game by turn 23 ?!?

But that's ok, I didn't expected anything else from him, so it doesn't bother me at all. But when instead of saying "thanks", you , the forum moderator and very dedicated Dom2 MP player on your own, keep calling me "another side of Norfleet's coin", as if it was me who had cheated, I do feel a bit hurt by it, frankly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon9.gif

I don't think that somebody who exposed cheater, should be equaled with the cheater, just because that somebody was *really* hurt and irritated by this very subject of cheating, which happened to him in his own game, but he didn't have hard proof of it at that time. But if you really think that there is no real difference here between the cheater and the one who was cheated, and who spend a lot of time gathering and preparing all these evidence to expose cheater, to the benefit of the entire players MP community, I am not going to argue with you. I am leaving it up to you to decide.

Stormbinder

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

well put, storm
i for one appreciate your work to expose norfleet, and have no doubt that he cheated
although your previous norfleet hating may seem to spoil your reputation, it just means you were the right man for the job to expose him (anyone seen I, Robot?)

this is a possibility to be considered. with his parting words, norfleet called what happened a 'glitch'. he may mean he found some sort of bug that allowed him to produce these gems, and was simply extorting it.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

As I don't think anyone touched on this...

The Mets are the American baseball team from New York. The title was a joke on American colloquialism at changing the subject. As in "Nice Weather We're Having?"

i.e. I posted that within a couple minutes of the Ermor thread being locked.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

I am also very thankful that Storm took the time to track this down and prove his case. As other have said it is was certainly a difficult task for him to do against the chiding and disbelief by many people. His history with Norfleet obviously makes it difficult to accept Stormfleets comments at face value, but here there does not seem to much question about the soul of the issue.

Its always easier to look the other way and forgot about it. I am very glad Stormbinder stuck this through.

Its just my opinion, but I don't think a "Sorry" or "Thank you" is uncalled for.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

first of all,big thanks to stormbinder for catching Norfleet.
As a matter of fact I never played a MP game ,where Norfleet stayed longer than a few turns before going AI.
Thats why I never believed that Norfleet used "different" methods in playing the game,even though several players I knew from former games warned we,that he may be cheating.I,thus,maintained neutral regarding this.

From my point of view,its clear that he cheated now:

1.Several players always thought this,which made me at least thinking about it.
2.In my recently started MP game,Norfleet left the game after we all got a cheat detection message about him,playing Caelum(unexplainable wealth increase,or something like that).
After all,this game has also master password activated,so there would have been possibilities to proof that he did not cheat(or otherway round).
3.Now we have incredible huge numbers,which are by NO means achievable by turn 23 through normal play.

Now,I cant understand though ,why there are still some people that dont believe in this and ,furthermore,are "hacking" on Stormbinder instead of being grateful for the time he(and others) have invested to catch a cheater.
Also I find it very sad,that some Posts apparently are deleted,as it seems even those of the developers.
IMO,the explanations for this are not sufficient.
This is a serious theme,not just a normal topic, and all people should be allowed to post their opinions,as long as they are not extremely offending,and,more important,to read all other opinions.
IMO,the topics about this should stay open for at least a week or so,deleting it after this period would be ok,if felt necessary .
I seriously think,that,in this special case, deleting lots of replies and closing whole topics will hurt the communitiy a lot more,than just letting everyone post what he wants to say,at least for a while.

Even if we dont know,how he was able to do it,we have only 2 possibilities:

1.Norfleet or a friend of him did manipualte the game.
2.Unlikely,but:
Someone else manipulated the game,so that Norfleet can be called a cheater,at Last.

Regarding 1.:

It may be that he was exploiting a bug here,or manipulating the turn files,or hacking into the Mosehansen server.
Regardless what he did,its always cheating by intention.
He always had the possibility to contact Illwinter, and tell them about what he is able to do,to prevent this in further games.

Regarding 2.:

To achieve those numbers,which are now revealed,he had to cheat right from the start of the game,most likely every turn.
So,even if it was someone else,who altered the game so that he got lots of gems every turn,Norfleet didnt tell anybody of this and just used it to his advantage.
This is also cheating,nothing more and nothing less.

Re: So how \'bout those Mets?
 

It might be said that in certain circles, Norfleet was known to have behavior that would be considered cheating but could not be proven directly as such, but it was well known that he is/was at some time.