What to do about Ermor ....
 

Dear All,

I'm really up against it in an SP game (as Iron Woods Jotunheim, 12 opponents, "Inland" map, turn 41). All my resources have been devoted to containing Ermor for about 10 turns, during which time Tien Chi have expanded across must of the rest of the map (they're still smaller than me, but catching up fast).

I tried to take the Ermor citadel, but my priests got shredded by the spears from the towers. I'm thinking of just laying siege to it forever and preaching him to death. Vanheim is the only other nation fighting Ermor, everyone else is just ignoring them ... Caelum are way ahead on research but also contained (I hope). I've wiped out 5 nations so far (Mictlan, Arco, Ulm, Pangaea and Machaka), and I'm about to lay siege to the capitals of Abysia and Pythium. The only threats are then Tien Chi and R'lyeh.

So, a few questions to tickle your strategic brains:

1. Is it worth laying siege to Ermor itself? I currently have an adjacent province very well defended and he's not attacking me but might be expanding elsewhere. I've heard that it stops him reanimating if he's under siege - but what about all the other provinces?

2. How does Ermor work - how many new units does he get per turn? Is it per province? What sort of army do I need to maintain the siege and withstand attacks? There is a water (lake) province right next to his capital, which I won't be able to take for some time. I should be able to mop up the others though. He hasn't taken any new provinces for at least 6 turns but still has doubled the size of his army.

3. The only ones I'm at war with (other than Ermor) are Abysia and Caelum. How long can I wait before attacking Tien Chi? They've recently expanded from about 7 provinces to about 18, but they've hardly any money or gem income to show for it. I guess they could get quite strong soon though. Any thoughts?

4. Finally, what's the spell that causes independents to attack a province? It's happened three times in the Last four turns, but it hadn't happened at all before. There's no "event" message, just a battle message giving the result.

Thanks in advance,

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

P.S. I need more money. Is there a spell that increases my tax revenues? I'm low on fire and earth gems ....

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Of course, it all depends on Ermor's theme. Considering his growing army, you are probably playing against one of the two undead-only themes.

First of all: If he shreds your priests, there haven't been enough priests. Don't rely on bringing your expensive giant priests with you, but rather, hire a swarm cheap indy ones. Don't place them all in one spot. Banishment, which is the key to beat off Ermor (unless you have death magic on your own), has a very long range.

Second, Ermor usually tends to have a very strong dominion. Preaching it out of existence takes its time, and I find it especially obnoxious if the lands that feed your sieging/preaching army are barren.

Ermor gains troops for free, depending on the Dominion of the province (at least, the two undead themes do so, I am actually not sure about Broken Empire), or by reanimating them with priests. In the first case, the quality of the troops is determined by such facts like if there is a castle or temple in the province, and the reanimation process generally requires either corpses in the province or population.


For more money, you can always wish for it via Alteration 9 and lots of astral. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Oh, okay, a more feasible way of getting more money is to hunt for fire/earth sites, or forge items that produce gems for alchemization.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Does this mean that if I reduce his dominion he'll get fewer troops? He's definitely all-undead - I've seen only one or two live units all game, and he brings 100-150 undead into each battle (and animates more during them).

I don't mind how long it takes to preach him out - I've got seven other nations to conquer. I just want the best way to contain him without tying up too many resources. Laboriously taking each of his provinces is going to take a lot of time and a lot of priests and troops. I think the AI tends to focus on a besieged castle, meaning I could mop up the other provinces with less trouble ... providing the sieging force was strong enough ....

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Are his Undead units etheral or not?
If they arent, then he must be ashen empire Ermor, which means he can reanimate with no need for corpses OR population.
Sieging him might work, but he still gets his hordes of freespawns.
He does get less if his dominion is weaker, and even less if he has no castle.
If you intend to sieg his capital, you'll need to constantly increase security as he will constantly recieve new units and (probably) will use them to break the siege.
Also, supplies arent a problem for him, so his castle army can grow without worry.
For income you can wish or use "Gift of nature's bounty" if you are capable of casting any of these spells (the Gift is an excellent income spell, especially with all the provinces I assume you have.
Another good idea would be researching all the mass undead destruction spells, Grind Bones iirc is very useful against undead (if you can find someone to cast it).
Oh, and taking his capital will weaken him alot because it will take away his Sepulcher, his best death gem income site (and we all know that AE and SG Ermor live and die by death gems, not sure about BE though).

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Regarding money, you could research Construction 8 and then forge the Alchemist's Stone, which is a bargain if you were already planning to research that high in that path. You could also be sure to methodically cast Gnome Lore and Auspex to get every Last earth and fire gem site.

Dominion is important to Ermorian troops; he won't get any autogenerated troops in hostile dominion, if memory serves. OTOH, a sane Ermorian player (not necessarily including the AI) will normally take a high dominion, and will attempt to protect his temples with fortresses and significant garrisons or at least reaction forces. On the other hand, Ermor normally has trouble preaching.

You could attempt to siege/preach him out in conjunction with raids to destroy unprotected temples. It may take a shorter time than you think if you can build Gate Cleavers or Wall Shakers, as Jotuns are strong and mindless undead are heavily penalized at castle maintenance.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Damn, that's what I was worried about - he is indeed playing AE (the undead are not ethereal). So there's no real point laying siege to the castle unless I can actually take it - he will eventually break the siege. (Laying siege doesn't deprive him of the death gems, does it?)

My only ways to reduce his free troops are to take his provinces and lower his dominion (which are essentially the same thing), right? So that means a slow grind, while Tien Chi get ever stronger.

I don't think I can take the Ermor castle - the entrance is quite narrow (only 4-5 giants wide) and the towers fire deadly ballista bolts or something, 4 or 8 at a time. My priests didn't seem to be nearly as effective as on an open battlefield (does Banishment require LoS??). He has a LOT of commanders in there - about 15, all of whom cast Raise Skeletons EVERY ROUND. Bastards. I went in with 18 priests, just after he had sent out over 100 undead (which I annihilated on open ground without loss), and he had ANOTHER 140 in there with the 15 commanders ....

Thanks for the tip about nature's bounty - I have a lvl5 nature mage somewhere so I'll look into that.

I've not come across Grind Bones - did you mean Wither Bones? I'm researching that now (Thaum 6), but I only have one Death-3 mage to cast it ...

This game is going to be hard to win. I think I'm going to have to leave Ermor where he is, hope that he doesn't take too many more provinces, and conquer the rest of the world first, before taking him on. I may already have wasted too much time, with Caelum's mages and Tien Chi's massive army to deal with ....

Hats off to the devs - I've not lost so much sleep over a game since MoM.

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Since he's AI he's not building any fortresses, for which I'm pathetically grateful. The main Ermor citadel has proven very hard to take - any tips on what sort of army I should use would be gratefully appreciated. He has an undead pretender (not a GK, a Prince of something) with huge MR (25 the one time I saw it), so Banishment is prob not going to work (maybe that's why my priests didn't banish the troops - were they trying to banish him instead and failing?). I think the damn thing is ethereal as well.

I've just got Conj 5 and am summoning Firbolgs and Bane Lords this turn, both of which come equipped with magic weapons.

I still think I might try and leave Ermor until Last though, and hope he doesn't expand away from me. I'm getting very worried about the size of the Tien Chi army.

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

for jotunheim iron woods ae ermor is evil .
ways to kill ermorian hordes really fast :
- preach
- dust to dust / wither bones
- holy pyre
- mass damage spells : especially storm / wrathful skies combo
- lighning spells ( e.g. orb lighning ) and fire spells . they in general target either a area or have a number of effects >1
- blade wind is an excellent anti ermorhordes spell too

in your current game i would do the following :
leave ermor alone , on your borders with ermor castle all + build temples and have pd + indy priests guarding the border + 1 emergency squad .

kill all other ais first . then you should have a bigger empire and lots of indy mages which have good magics against ermor .

then build some special semiscs and enjoy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

example : airqueens , with staff of storm , cast wrathful skies , take some lighning immune troops with ( the air queens summons , spring hawks , storm demons ) and script the airqueens to e.g. massive orb lighnings .

or you can lategame do 2-3 flames from the sky on the ermor legions with 1000+ undeads and they will be reduced too 300 or so and easy to kill http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

the easiest way to kill the undead hordes are vampires / vampire lords http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
when you leave ermor alone now lategame you can wish for blood and build a pack of them . they will wreak havoc on ermor . you can wish for dominion then too to ensure that your vampires always fight in positive dominion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
finally you can wish for armaggedon it kills 20% of ermors troops but your jotuns and other tough troops survive because it most likely kills only weak troops .
so you will lose per armaggedon about 1-10 units while ermor loses about 20% so some thousand http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
finally there is a global i think it is called purgatory which kills undeads in all provinces where you have positive dominion . since ermor can't preach and you have more territory in the long run you will outdominion ermor .

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Since Ermor kills off his provinces, I recommend taking him out before he spreads further, particularly since it sounds like he's on the ropes anyway:

It sounds as if your armies took down most/all of his army except for a core set of commanders and his prentender, but you just can't crack his citadel and fear that eventually his auto-summons would overwhelm your seiging force.

My suggestions:
1) Use part of your army to seige his castle. Expect occasional attempts to break the seige, but without his castle defenses to help him out you should be able to handle this more easily - also considering he will likely leave some commanders/units in reserve when he attacks.

You can occasionally attack with a scout set to retreat to get a peek at how he's building his forces up. Have all your priests preaching here as you seige. Keep buying priests to preach (and banish in combat).

Set up a nearby lab and start summoning up some undead of your own as fodder. The undead cavalry (Pale Riders?) is a fantastic summon, but behemoths, banes, and even dispossed spirits are all useful. Use a few mound kings as leaders and to shuttle the undead fodder to the seiged castle.

Simultaneously, use the other part of your army to take *all* his surrounding provinces. They probably are weakly defended for the most part (since if he had another big army, he'd be attacking you with it) so you shouldn't need too big a force for this. When you take his provinces, put up temples wherever you can afford - especially in the provinces around his castle.

Your goal here is to reduce Ermor to a single province so no outside relief/income is available, while also reducing his dominion and gem income (and increasing yours!) Lowering his castle province's dominion will also weaken his pretender for your eventual assault.

2) While doing that, build yourself up an supercombatant or two that can probably crack Ermor's citadel force alone if necessary. Easiest would be a pair of good 'ol Banelords with Starshine Skullcaps (Horror Helm is worthless against most (all?) undead), Jade Armor, Flying Boots, anti-magic amulets, and luck amulets. I usually equip them with wraith swords, but they don't do so much against undead. You could try herald lances though, which are good against undead.
Two of these banelords can probably take on his citadel force by themselves, but since you have a seiging force right there, just send everybody in (ie: banelords, priests, jotuns, undead fodder). Have the banelords on hold-hold-hold-attack rear so that his forces and arrow defenses will engage your fodder forces before your banelords jump in.

Hope this helps!

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Wow - thanks Boron and Lintman - two completely different ideas! Watch this space to see how it turns out ...

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

LintMan's suggestion(s) have much merit. Since Ermor destroys population, unless you have positive growth scale you MUST take Ermor down as fast as possible or the lands that fall under Ermorian dominion will become a near-useless wasteland. The longer you take, the uglier the results will be. Wiping out any foes that have death scales should, IMO, be a player's #1 priority (unless they are playing a death nation themselves).

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

I think this must be either Raging Hearts or Imprint Souls - can someone explain the difference to me? The former must be Abysia, but if it's the latter it could be Caelum or Pythium ....

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

i couldn't disagree more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . as long as you are not the direct neighbor of ermor and don't threaten your mainlands they are not so bad .
this is sp discussion so here wiping out ermor quick is good. but in mp in lategame ermor is still dangerous but not a top 5 nation because they can't bloodhunt and are not the best clamhorders .
a strong mictlan , abysia or a strong clamhorder like r'leh is more dangerous imho .

finally for me population doesn't matter too much only when i want to bloodhunt and early-midgame for income .
lategame the only resources which count are clams and magic sites for me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . in this 2 areas ermor is good but not top .

so in sp killing ermor quick is good in mp it is not recommended imho . lategame it is much easier with your magic anti undead toys http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

There are many things that can cause independent attacks:

* Random events: Vampires, Knights, Barbarians, Bogus the Troll, Vine Men, Caspar of the Cave (who doesn't attack himself, but unleashes independent monsters), rogue mages. There are different independent attacks underwater. Some of these events are rarer than others.
* Horrors (can be caused by horror mark, or by the Send (Lesser) Horror spell), and Ghost Riders. These disappear after combat.
* Raging Hearts (I believe Imprint Souls is controlled by the caster although not sure)
* Unfettered Eater of the Dead
* While not exactly an attack, there is also a rebellion random event.

Maybe others. This is just what I can think of.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Back on the main topic:

If you treat Ermor like a natural disaster that you have to kill you will probably make yourself lose. If you fight Ermor, and while you are doing that empire A kills empire B, then you will find yourself with a huge wasteland which doesn't much increase your strength, and empire A will then be twice as good as he was before. (Not to mention the risk that Ermor might kill you instead). Thus empire A is likely to win. Containment is a much better strategy against Ermor than direct assault. This is assuming MP, of course. In single player you have to kill Ermor immediately because the AI cannot handle Ermor.

Ermor isn't much good at clamhoarding, with no native water income and no ready supply of water mages. They've also got no blood income. Late in the game they have many weaknesses, not the least of which is their one-dimensional army and their poor quality SCs.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

But for random events you get the "something unexpected happened in province X" message. I get no message, just a battle report. So I think it must be a spell, I'm just trying to work out which one.

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

The spell I meant is called "Bone Grinding", according to the spell thingy its alteration 7 with 7D required to cast it.
HOWEVER this is a massive combat spell which, from my expirience, can kill an entire AE army with one cast.
As its name suggests, it grinds the bones of all units on the field.
Sadly for AE, that means that skeletons are being grinded (ground?) completely.
Ive expirienced this spell being cast at me in SP in the retail Version, it might have changed since then, but I believe not...

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

If your enemy gets a random event with attacking independents in a province and you attack that province in that same turn, then you can end up getting attacked by the independents.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

True, but if you already own the province then you would get the random event message. Ergo, they cannot be random events, 'cos I'm getting attacked by indies in provinces I already own. Must be a spell.

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Yeah, I had a lot of trouble with Ermor as well in my recent SP game as Abysian. I know Holy Pyre and level 4 priests kill Ermor fast, but there are just so many of them, and my troops have nothing to eat in their dominion, plus the other AI players can't handle him and so pile on me. [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/mad.gif[/img]

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

abysia is one of the few nations who have a really easy time with ermor mid-lategame http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
3 things :
1. attack big troop concentrations of ermor with flames from the sky http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
2. massproduce vampires , build jadeknives and sacrifice blood on your borders to ermor . this way you will push dominion quite fast into him and your vampires can wipe out the ermorian hordes without danger .
3. devil horde + lots of fire mages scripted to good massdamage fire spells

oh and as you said you have holy pyre and your vampire lords can cast wither bones http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

so abysia and mictlan are probably the 2 nations who kill ermor easiest with little effort http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Man, this is not going well. I decided to mass for an attack on Ermor, as per Lint's advice, and of course Tien Chi declared war on me and invaded two border provinces.

So I put plans for Ermor on hold (they didn't seem to be expanding, and all the pop in their provinces is dead already) and went after Tien Chi. How the heck do you deal with Living Statues? They're not undead, but they're unbreakable (morale 50) and they have 22 prot! A group of about six went through three provinces of 20 giants each! I have very few earth gems so no Elf Bane. Are there spells that target magic beings? (Is there some sort of index of spell effects anywhere, to save looking through every spell whenever I have a question like this?)

As I suspected, Tien Chi were spread pretty thin (apart from where they attacked me), so I've taken a half dozen of his provinces. In the meantime I found an isolated Ermor province, cut off from the rest of Ermor by a plucky Vanheim. So I decided to mop it up on my way further into Tien territory - by this time I had two fully equipped Bane Lords and two similarly decked out Firbolgs.

Unfortunately Vanheim decided to take that Ermor province the same turn, and I accidentally killed their god! I lost a Firbolg in the process too. On the same turn I had decided that I could encroach on Ermor with one of my Bane Lords, and he got surrounded and killed. It was so close though - 240 undead killed out of 253, meaning it was only the summoned skellies that turned the tide.

As if that all wasn't enough to be going on with, Pythium teleported an army into the middle of my empire, which was fortunately repelled by the PD. Since Pythium have no provinces and their home fortress is under siege by R'lyeh, I'd have thought they'd have had better things to do! To cap it all, it was the one turn I forgot to check the merc roster, and all three of my mages deserted (Dagan, Obscuro and the white wizard guy). That was one bummer of a turn - at least I got to conj 6 and can start calling Lamia queens.

Sorry, this is turning into a bit of an AAR (or rather During) - apols. Just a few summary questions:

1. How to deal with Living Statues? (and other high prot non-undead MBs I guess)

2. Why did my Bane Lord charge into the middle of the undead army and get surrounded, instead of flying to the back and offing leaders like he was ordered to? He only flew halfway down the battlefield.

3. Does the AI assume peace after X turns of no conflict? Caelum just declared war on me again - I didn't notice we'd ever not been at war, but it's true that a few turns had elapsed since we Last fought.

4. If I equip a Bane Lord with a Flambeau or a Fire Brand, and a Burning Pearl, will he be safe from the fire effects?

Stay tuned - this is definitely my most interesting game yet!

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

1. Magic beings require a mage to command them. So if you kill the enemy's mages then the Statues will be destroyed. There are also a number of spells that should work on them, but I can't remember most of their names. Opposition is one of them. No doubt someone else can come up with more. And of course you can always beat them down with, say, a Gate Cleaver.

2. Attack Rearmost is a frustrating command. As I udnerstand it, units set with that order have to make some sort of check (a morale check?) for every group of enemies that they pass on the way to the rear. If they fail the check then they attack that group.

3. I don't know if the AI ever assumes peace, as you put it, or not. But I do know that fighting a battle with the AI does not necessarily mean you are at war with them. For instance, there have been times when the AI and I both attack the same Independent province, thus ending up fighting each other. Afterwards the AI did not come after me as if we were at war. Later on in the game, it declared war on me. That may be what happened to you and Caelum.

4. Are you asking if the fire protection bonuses from different items add up? Some do, some don't. There's a thread on this somewhere. It is kind of broken that way. Also, Last I heard Burning Pearls were borken, in that they give 100% fire protection when they're only supposed to give 50%.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

living statues have fortunately only 15 hp . so use fire or better air spells against them .
most fire spells are ap so protection is halfed .
most air spells are an so no protection . so a lightning bolt e.g. has 14+ an damage and requirement of only A .
so when cast by a AA mage it should do at least 15 damage and if you cast before aim on your mages almost every lightning bolt hits .
you are standard jotunheim iirc . i am not very familiar with them because i like jotunheim niefelheim most so perhaps air and fire are hard to get with them .

but your jotun gigants should overcome the protection anyways because they have high strength .
the damage throw is : (strength + weapon damage + 2d6 oe) -
(protection + 2d6 oe) .
a living statue has 14 def so it should be not too hard to hit and 2-3 hits from a jotun gigant unit should kill it .

yeah as vynd said attack rearmost is not too good in most cases you attack the rearside of an enemy squad instead because of the morale checks .

iirc attack archers is without morale checks so attack archers might work better because the pc most times puts his mages in the middle of his archers .

but don't attack ermor with a single SC . they are one of the few nations where SCs are not so good because of the following :
-swarming , so some undeads will always hit
-undead = no healing through lifesteal , so no fatiguerecovery

a special sc with regeneration + reinvigoration items might work but is not worth it because destroying undeads is easy with anti undead battle magic like wither bones .

hope this helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

I thought it would be worth it to eliminate Ermor rather than allow them time to recover, but it's definitely lower priority now that Tien Chi has forced the issue.

Living statues are very tough. I've generally just resorted to using a mix of overwhelming force and elemental spell attacks against them. Were those 20 giants they killed militia giants or better ones? The militia giants in particular seem to have morale issues and rout quickly. Hurler's boulder damage is huge and might be good against the statues.

Some summoned creatures might also help - the death summons as I mentioned above since they are mostly high morale or unbreakable, but if you can afford it, consider Ether Gate. It's a bit overpriced, but you get a S3D1sorc1 Ether Lord plus fifteen size-3 ethereal Ether Warriors carrying Moonblades (x2 damage vs magic beings!).

Wow, massive bad luck! I hate when you accidentally attack a peaceful nation, and when you kill their god, it's just that much worse. At least now their pretender will have lost some magic power and might have some afflictions, so it's less of a threat.

It's tempting to send them out alone since they're quite tough, but sending banelords in pairs is generally safer. It's usually when I give in to temptation and send them alone that I get surprised and lose one.

Lamia queens are a real bargain, IMHO.

I mentioned this above, but in more detail:
- elemental spell attacks are effective. Frozen Heart is a favorite of mine since it is 100 precision, and W1 mages can cast it (IIRC). Immolation is also 100 precision plus armor negating, but that's not as easily available for Jotuns. Falling Frost is also nice if you have any high level water mages.
- Moonblades do 2x damage to magic beings and cost astral gems not earth - give some to your surviing SC's and set them lose.
- I know lots of people think it's overpriced, but I love Ether Gate, and those guys would be quite useful here.
- Since you'll generally have low numbers of giants, morale can be an issue, particularly for the cheaper, lower-morale giants. Firbolg leaders can help offset this because of their Standard ability, as can using the better, higher-morale giants, and having larger Groups.

Vynd mentioned the morale-check mechanism. I think this is a game-balancing factor to make it harder to take out rearmost leader units reliably. Since you were fighting 250+ units with one banelord, you would have gotten surrounded no matter where your banelord attacked (unless the attack rear actually worked and you took out all his leaders before you could be surrounded)

Boron thinks "attack archers" is better because it doesn't have the morale checks, but I think it does; I haven't seen "attack archers" cause direct movement to attack archers on any more reliable basis than "attack rear" actually attacks the rear. And if the enemy doesn't *have* any archers (such as usually the case with undead), you can't be sure where your units will attack instead.

Yes, one of the developers stated that after some amount of turns of non-conflict, the AI can revert to peace status with you, unless you've killed thier god, which means a permanent vendetta.

There are some odd behaviors with resistance items stacking: some do and some don't. I think there was a thread here about that where someone figured out some of the details of the behavior. I think it was in the bug thread, but you might be able to dig it up with a forum search.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

For magnate's Firbolg SC's, the loss of lifestealing against undead could definitely lead to fatigue issues, but banelord SC's don't really have that concern since they are 0-fatigue anyway.

Swarming though is a concern for some single sc's as magnate saw. Better to use them in pairs which splits up the attackers, or use soemthing like a trampler SC that eats up swarms of cheap units. A favorite trampler SC of mine:
Summon a Golem, add these items
- Charcoal Shield (gives flame shield)
- Scrutata Volturnus (occasional shock attacks)
- Starshine Skullcap (+1S, +MR)
- Stymphalian Armor (gives flight, fear and tampling!)
- Boots of Quickness
- Amulet of Antimagic
- Stone Bird or Dancing Trident (gives an attack, since he's not carrying a weapon)
With 3S, the golem can teleport from the lab to a distant province, and in battle can cast Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Personal Luck, Twist Fate, and Astral Weapon before stomping away.

That's pretty high-end, though and not well in line with Jotun's magic paths.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Quoting Lintman
"With 3S, the golem can teleport from the lab to a distant province, and in battle can cast Body Ethereal, Astral Shield, Personal Luck, Twist Fate, and Astral Weapon before stomping away."

Hm you have not actually done this I take it - those spells cost over 100 fatigue with the 14 casting fatigue from armour.
I have one of these in a game at the moment he has
Accursed Shield, Main gauche of parrying, Wraith crown, Wings, boots, lucky charm & bracers of defence. The items duplicate his spells of course & he is a raider not a full on SC & he has yet to really take part in a proper battle.
I am Ulm with Forge of the Ancients & the items were a song. He has good prot & defence for a Golem but is magically a bit vulnerable I suppose - this has not come up in games I have played yet.
I just lost a differently equipped one when it fatigued out (It was an error to leave the Army with the relief casting witches)

Pickles

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

I have done this and assorted variants of it multiple times, and I've gotten them a bit mixed up. I think I actually did have this exact setup in 1-2 battles and recall the golem fatiging out for a few turns before waking up to stomp its enemies. In those cases, though, the enemies couldn't really scratch it even when it was passed out.

Anyway, if you delete astral weapon from the list, you won't fatigue out. aw isn't that critical, since we're really planning for trampling damage here. If I expected to encounter some un-trampleable enemies (ie: size 5-6), though, I'd put aw back in and remove twist fate

Why did it fatigue out? What spells were you casting?

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Hey, I for one enjoy reading it.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

I was being a bit disingenuous. It cast some buffs then used Tempest for an attack spell which is what did it in really.

It was my faulty programming & using it outside an army that did for it. There is no inherent flaw with the concept - which is one I also use.

Pickles

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

that is pretty dangerous . just 2 words : MIND DUEL .

i don't remember if i ever saw the ai cast that in sp but i think it does sometimes too .
in mp this is extremely dangerous though .

furthermore i see no reinvigation items / life drain items on the golem sc .
so i have to agree with pickles and add : after the spells he might have 70-80 fatigue but can't recover so after a few tramples he fatigues out .

imho this setup is extremely bad for a golem sc even against ai ermor .

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Yes, it's a bit of a concern, but hasn't been a problem for me in SP (I don't play MP).

Golems are lifeless, 0-encumberance so they do not fatigue out just from melee/trampling. I've used them - they work well.

Note: I'm not claiming this is an uber SC combo. It's not - It lacks many resistances you want on a SC and is poorly equipped to deal with large (size 5-6) enemies or enemy SC's since it lacks a good weapon or high defense. Perhaps "mini-SC" or some other term might have been better. And the item set I listed is just my personal choice, which I freely vary to match my current situation -and Pickles' Version is arguably better than the listed one. But my only point in mentioning this golem SC was that it is very efficient for going against large masses of cheap units and killing them quickly without getting overwhelmed.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

oh i thought you play mp too lintman .

have you ever encountered an ai casting mind duel ?
i am not sure if i saw them ever casting this spell but i am not sure and i think you have much more sp expierience then me because i always tend to boom there ( wish etc. and not be agressive earlygame ).

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Not yet. OTOH, I don't play Dom 2 day and night for months on end so my observations may not be as statistically significant as that of some others on this forum (those die-hard fanatics know who they are).

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

My playing time is usually extremely limited and I'm a slow turn-taker so mp would be hard for me to keep up with most games. I might venture into mp at some point if I can find a mega-slow game and when I'm ready to get my butt kicked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Like Arryn, I've never seen the AI use mind duel, but I've seen other people on this forum say that the AI has done so on occasion, so it's not impossible.

In SP, I'm pretty aggressive in the early game, but in mid to late game, I tend to slow down and boom also - it's just too much fun forging items, making wishes, etc to rush to end the game.

It seems we've usurped magnate's AAR (DAR?) thread... How's it going there, magnate?

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

This was an 'AAR' thread? Looked more like a "I'm getting my *** kicked, HELP!" thread.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

LOL

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Can't it be both?

It's ... um .... er ... well, it's ok ... just about. Thanks for asking. Ermor seems to have stopped expanding but has developed this habit of sending one commander and 50 undead to attack one of my provinces every turn (the same province, in fact) - they get wiped out by my priest phalanx for no loss, but he's still too strong for me to make any further inroads. So I've got a whole bunch of priests with really useful stats like heroic toughness, heroic strength, etc. etc.

The battle with Tien Chi is really humming. I didn't have the right mage levels for any of the spells you suggested vs the living statues, but as someone else said the giants are pretty strong so I just overwhelmed them with numbers. There's one massive army of about 180 units wandering around - if I can beat that I think I can take him (I've found his capital). My pretender is leading about 40 giants, which is not quite enough to take 180 yet.

I've also found the Caelum capital, which is massively defended (~300 units), but he seems exceptionally unaggressive and I just can't spare the armies to take it yet. Same with Abysia - I've been sitting outside his for years but haven't the resources to take it.

What is it with Pythium?? They still have no provinces, they're still under siege from what I assume must be R'lyeh (process of elimination - I can't actually find their capital), but they're still casting Imprint Souls at MY provinces!! Bastards. The latest one overcame the defences at Pangaea so I've a siege to break there (shouldn't be difficult - Jotun regulars can dice madmen quite easily, it's just a shame my PD are not up to much).

A few things have developed. Last time I tried to take an Ermor province, his commander was casting Disintegrate, which is a bad sign. Means he's only one level from Utterdark. Caelum has cast Dark Skies, but that's not much of a problem 'cos it only works inside his Dominion (right?).

My main problem now is money - upkeep is up over 800, which is way more than this stage in previous games (I now appreciate how cheap Ulm and Pythium infantry units are!) - my income is just under 2k so I have only about 1100 per turn to spend. I've had to pause building temples and cut right back on PD, just to keep the Jotun recruitment up. I do now have several more Bane Lords and a Lamia Queen, but I haven't been able to keep up with outfitting them, so several of them are butt naked.

My current plan is to finish off Vanheim before they call their God back, then take out Abysia and then Caelum, all the while whittling away at Tien Chi. By then I'll have several Lamia Queens with Skull Staffs ready to cast Whither Bones at Ermor, a Couatl or two to cast some astral spells at Last, and who knows, I may even have found Pythium .....

Like I said, thanks for asking.

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

A "butt-naked" Bane Lord is still an effective combatant. It's just not quite good enough to go out alone. Group a few of them together, especially with some support, and they can still rip up stuff while you take the time to make the equipment they'll need to be "true" SCs.

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

magnate whats your god ?
perhaps you should leave him at home rather then furthermore leading gigants and summon/forge http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

furthermore : you could well decrease upkeep by sacrificing all your gigant units and using summons instead .
at the point of the game in which you are now the gigants are not much more than fodder too .
unfortunately 40 gigants are really normally not enough to take out 180 other units because they swarm them to death .

you could use some of the "goblins" i think they are called vaettis with your gigants as another solution :
they swarm , the gigants hit easier + kill .
iirc gigants are size 4 and the vaettis size 1 .
so 1 gigant + 2 vaettis can occupy one battlesquare http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

the only troops always worth being produced which are still very strong lategame are imho :
devils , vampires , storm devils , torrasque , abominations , ghosts .

of these ghosts + vampires are the best imho because you get them as freespawns (summon allies) from good sc leaders :
ghosts from wraith lords
vampires from vampire lords

200-400 ghosts / vampires can take out almost every AI force without support even lategame .
10-20 abominations most likely too .


one of my favourite sp lategame force :
storm demons with pazuzus and the air queens http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

That reminds me, when I talked about my Bane Lord getting surrounded and killed earlier, he wasn't alone! I sent him in at the head of a force of ~20 giants and ~60 archers and ~12 priests. Just in case people were wondering.

But yes, thanks - I will make us of the BLs while I catch up on the forging (which has only paused to site search new provs and will soon be back on track).

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Well, first off my pretender is a wyrm with no magic paths at all. I spent my points on dom 10 and good scales (order 3, prod 3, cold 3, magic 1). So the wyrm leads armies and fights - almost 500hp in dom 10.

Second, thank you for the suggestion of using vaettis - I'll experiment. I based this strategy on Arryn's Utgard AAR - although it's not the same theme and I took slightly different scales, I noticed that he recruited primarily jotuns and that they were great in battle. Even now, my losses are few (the living statues are hard to kill but don't do much damage). The 180 stack is described as Footmen, Archers and other infantry stuff - no cavalry or living statues in significant numbers. I agree that 40 is probably not enough, but I'm cranking out some archer legions nearby which should help. I'll try sprinkling in some vaettis too.

Finally, I don't have the magic paths anywhere to summon all the great troops you mention. I have one N3 jade sorceress, for whom I forged a moonvine bracelet and a thistle mace to cast GoH (yay for giants!), who can summon my lamia queens and firbolgs. I have several D2 mages with skull staves who can summon BLs, behemoths, pale riders and so on. But that's about it. When I get conj 7 I'll get some couatls (seem too good for O1N1) who might be able to get some decent astral summons for me.

I do take the point that summons have no upkeep though, and that seems to be becoming important. I don't like using undead against Ermor because they get bLasted by my own priests, but I will use them against the others.

Unfortunately I've not been able to play much (mother-in-law visiting this weekend!), and I have a hellish week coming, but watch this space ....

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

a probably more useful tip for this game :
you have the b2 skratties right ?
so you could bloodhunt a bit and empower one to b3 then and let him forge some bloodthorns .
they are great weapons for your gigant leaders as scs or vor banelords too .

forging a water bracelet for 1 doesn't hurt too and is easy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

then you have a b3w3 skratti which can summon the ice devils they are great scs .

if you are extremely lucky one gets e.g. heroic hitpoints as heroic ability or heroic quickness http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
this is then a true monster against everything expect ermorian undead hordes were lifeleech doesn't work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

Hey that's another good idea - thanks. As soon as I can spare 250gp I'll get one. I already have a water bracelet or two. Little chance of them getting hero status though, with my priests having >100 kills each.

Why is Life Drain so good? Surely it doesn't kill things as fast as high damage (esp. if AP like the fire brand)? If my SCs have high prot and luck, surely they don't get hit often enough to make LD worth while? Or does LD add to hp above max??

CC

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

[quote]
magnate said:
yep lifedrain adds to above max hp .
after the battle for the new turn it is restored to the basic hp ( "negative" heal ) .
against weak units so it is very likely that your ice devil starts with about 80 hp and ends the battle with e.g. 130 hp .

high protection and luck are good too but lifedrain has another EXTREME good advantage :
it restores FATIGUE too when lifedraining from living beings .


so example :
a not 0 encumberance SC = nonundead will fatigue out slowly . you can take reinvigoration items but this is expensive and if you have a good armor you need a lot .

so a niefel jarl e.g. without high reinvigoration / lifedrain when fighting against 100 units will lose because he fatigues out after he kills a percentage of the 100 units .

when the niefel jarl/ice devil had lifedrain or high reinvigoration / regeneration he would have won against the 100 units .

reinvigoration / regeneration has the advantage it does this every turn always while lifedrain needs living beeings ( no undeads , lifeless ) to restore hp .
so reinvigoration / regeneration works always but is much more expensive you need more items for this , 1-2 reinvigoration and 1 regeneration item while you need only 1 slot for a blood thorn as lifedrain weapon .

small guidelines for SC usage :

use lifedrain weapons or a wraith lord with d3 can cast soul vortex so he doesn't need that .
this is cheap.
you can use these SCS against all kinds of living beings .
against 50 troops + a few leaders you will win 99% of the battles .
against 100+ troops + some mages use SCS + some troops .

against undeads / lifeless use troops + battlemages instead .

Against the ai these guidelines should be enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
a human player when you advance to mp requires a bit more detailed tactics and lots of painful learning expierience .

i found this out myself since the 1-2 months i am playing mp http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: What to do about Ermor ....
 

SC do get hit often enough to make the recovery of HP an issue plus it relieves fatigue plus it can take them above maximum.
The extras HP do not seem to all disappear at once either when you stop but I am not sure quite how this works.