Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

So I finally get some Lamia Queens equipped with skull staves and research Thaum 6 and send them in against the undead hordes.

Pffffffshhhh. I'd rather have spent the money on priests.

Wither Bones costs FIFTY fatigue, so they can cast it three times (tops) before passing out.

Its accuracy is PANTS. It frequently misses altogether, and I've never seen it hit more than two undead, even when there are hundreds of them on the battlefield.

What am I missing? This is supposed to be THE anti-undead spell: no MR save, armour negating, etc. What's up?

CC

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Well I've played Ermor and been on the other end of some serious Wither Bones-ing, and I'm here to tell you that it's a nightmare for the receiver.

Given that undead normall come in Huge Hordes(TM), accuracy doesn't tend to be an issue; you're always going to hit <i>someting</i>. But, like priests and Banish, you're going to need a critical mass of casters to do any good. You've got to attrite them quickly (or have a rock-solid shield of melee fighters to hide behind) before their numbers overwhelm you.

Give your casters some death gems or another death boosting item to keep the fatigue cost down and increase the number of castings. Or, if you have easier access to large numbers of priests, they may be the better way to go anyway.

And there's always the luck factor. Try it a few more times before you give up on it. I bet you see better results next time.

Mark

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Hmm, I'd forgotten about using gems to reduce fatigue cost. How does that work? Will it automatically use one gem to reduce cost if there are any in the caster's inv, or do you have to specify it somehow? What happens if I want to use the gem for a spell which needs it, instead of using it to lower fatigue cost? If the spells are scripted in the wrong order, does it use the gem to lower fatigue and then leave the caster unable to cast the other spell?

What's the fatigue reduction, is it 50%?

Well, he goes some more trying ...

CC

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Any caster who has gems in his inventory -- gems of the primary path of the spells he casts, anyway -- will automatically consider using them.

Using gems above and beyond the base required raises the effective level of the caster for fatigue reduction and effectiveness, IIRC. Having one level above what's needed cuts base casting fatigue (NOT including encumberance fatigue) to 1/2 normal, two levels 1/3 normal, etc.

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Don't forget Wither Bones is unresistable and can kill the toughest undead. Mass banishment is very effectiev vs hordes of Soulless, but definitely consider Wither Bones if you're facing things like Ghosts or Wights.

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

i was the one who said that LOL.

since lamia queens are NATURE mages too you could script them to eagle eyes , wither bones .
furthermore give them the 2 handed death +1 staff for 10 deathgems etc.

so thinking before posting such "nonsense" would be sometimes great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Not every LQ is destined for Wither Bones greatness - the D4 ones with a Skull Staff will only get about ~20 fatigue per casting total, so try it with them. A D3 + staff one is about ~30, so they are ok, but if only D2 they should find another job - Astrals can Nether Dart (maybe communion if you have some lizards about and go for WB), Bloods should be hunting for slaves, and of course my Favorites the Natures should be casting Relief. Two casting relief means even the D3 LQs are able to cast it several times.

As for accuracy particularly with LQs, try an Eagle Eye casting first. The attack LQ flavours (Nether Darting and Wither Boning ones in particular) should have that scripting first. It helps for Vine Arrows too!

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

I accidentally attacked an (allied) undead horde with a solo D6 heliophagus. He killed 220 before he fled. Your mistake is to use in with unsupported d3 casters.

Pickles

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Hey buddy try not to be *too* offensive. If you read my first post you'll see they are already equipped with "the 2 handed death +1 staff".

I hadn't thought of casting Eagle Eyes first though - thank you for that suggestion.

I love this game - building up an encyclopaedic knowledge of spells is the only way to optimise your play. Must look up Mass Banishment ....

Incidentally, only 1 in 16 LQs will be D4. Another 3 in 8 will be D3 though, which is better. Geo said D3+staff (ie. D4 cast) gets "~30" fatigue - why isn't it just halved, like when using a gem?? If they use a gem as well, is it halved again, or does it just count as D5 cast, ie. 1/3 fatigue?

CC

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

You need to add the basic spellcasting enc to the fatigue cost of the spell. This is 3 for a LQ. So 28 per casting after 4 = 112 so 2 sleeping rounds then she is awake again.
You could shoot & scoot after 3 shots.

Adding a gem increases effective caster level so it would be 1/3*50 + 3 or 19. Gem use is a punt though.

A little bit of reinvigoration like boots of the messenger will let her cast 5 in a row. (I think it's 4 reinvig)
Alternatively, add in another 1-2 N3 casters casting Relief which is ench 6 & restores quite a bit of fatigue (20-30 IIRC) to EVERYONE.

Pickles

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Sadly it's even worse than that, since LQs are cold blooded - they don't like Cold 2 or Cold 3 at all! Ho hum.

Does the increased caster level affect fatigue arithmetically, ie.

+1 = 1/2 fatigue
+2 = 1/3
+3 = 1/4
+4 = 1/5
+5 = 1/6

etc.? Not that there's much point beyond about +2, but I thought I'd ask ...

CC

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Yes, it does, and with some spells and an assload of gems/communicants there is very much point in above +2... Ever seen pythium cast 2 master enslaves in the opening turn? (boots of quicknees, matrix, lotsa communicants and gems)

Also, someone already mentioned this, but I really wanna stress it: with access to lamia queens, why dont you just relief with abandon for the first 5 turns (perhaps 2 or even 3 relifers, that way you get 0 fatigue for the 5 first turns, and after that there shouldn't be much undead left.)

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Hmmm. Relief requires N3, and LQs are N1 by default (3/8 N2 and 1/16 N3). I guess I could forge a lot of treelord staves and moonvine bracelets.

Also, someone else mentioned Mass Banishment. I can't find a spell by this name. Am I missing something??

CC

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

hehe first sorry if i was a bit too critical but i felt myself a bit offended [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/ooo.gif[/img]

mass banishment means taking 10+ priests who all banish .

thistle maces are your cheapest way to get +1 nature .
so relief is really good too .

or you summon ivy kings (20N gems) for that they are N3 .


as others said wither bones is against the good undeads like banelords , wights , ghosts , vampires etc. while against hordes of weak longdeads etc banishment maybe enough .

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

Questions of how to reduce fatigue aside, I've found that Wither Bones can be pretty effective against Ermorian hordes(Particularly soul gate), since accuracy is irrelevant, is always terrible against small Groups of weak undead, since your mages insist on casting the overpowered spell, but was ultimately meant to be used on elite troops, SCs and mini SCs.
As has already been mentioned, wither bones ir armor negating and cannot be resisted by magic. Cast it on a group of Knights of the Unholy Sepulchre, Shadow Vestals, Bone Fiends, Wights, or whatnot, or on a Bane Lord or some other undead SC, and watch the calcium evaporate. Or possibly liquefy. Either way, works every time.

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

With area of effect 6+ wither bones is just great.
the only spells which kill a large horde of cheap undeads quicker are probably the gem requiring spells shimmering fields and flame storm .
but those are air or fire so THEY CANNOT damage scs with the right resistence .
thats exactly vicious loves opinion too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

so an undead horde of 1000 longdeads is "better" killed by flame storm or shimmering fields but the SCS will survive that http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

Re: Who said Wither Bones was so great??
 

He didn't mean that your LQs cast Relief - rather, since you obviously have N4 to summon LQs, you have other mages, the ones doing the summoning, who can cast the Relief spell for them.

Of course - it's also possible that you have a lone N2 or N3 mage (possibly one you had to empower) using a Treelord's Staff or Thistle Mace to summon the LQs, in which case you don't have enough to effectively do Relief, not to mention that you don't want to risk your sole decent Treehugger Mage.