Building a Better Pretender
 

I'm sure this has been done to death before. Finding the thread though, that's tough.

I'm intrested in general discussion of the pretender chasis, setting the scales, and custom equiping. I'm really intrested in, how to use an immobile pretender.

Boron, I hope you or another strategy guide person will include some info on this.

For example, how useful are dragons. I've stayed away from them in SP (and am more conservative in my one MP) because of their single straightforward magic path and their tendency, when played by the computer, to charge into my army and get slaughtered. Are there compensating strengths? How do they work well?

What about the various humans? I've used the Sorceres occasionally for a cheap rainbow w/ added pearls. The sage makes sense for quick research. I've tried the druid to generate Vine stuff in SP but find, if he just hangs around, he's worth more as research. Has there been a discussion of these folks?

The discussion of special pretenders at: http://www.freewebs.com/dominions2/ in the guides, is great. I'm looking for that w/ normal pretenders.

Rylen

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I rarely see any talk about dragons being used as pretenders... mainly because they are overpriced and pretty much stuck with one good magic path.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

If you can read French, you may want to give these threads a look:

aide pour la traduction

Comment faire un bon prétendant - spécialistes

Comment faire un bon prétendant - supporteurs

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

nice Posts nagot. I like any alternatives to a standard supercombatant.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I think the reason most people avoid dragons is because, for what you get, the Wyrm is really a better deal. The thing about a monster type pretender is that you can start attacking independents right from turn 2. Undead or titan pretenders need to do at least a little bit of research before they move out. The problem with dragons is that they don't have regeneration. Since monster pretenders fight all the time, they are really prone to getting afflictions. The Wyrm, who is tougher than the dragon anyway, and has much lower path cost, does have built-in regeneration and is amphibious, too. The dragon's only military advantage is that it flies. (The blue dragon can go in the water by way of water magic, of course).

If you wanted a good cheap W9 or N9 blessing, and a monster-type pretender, the dragon would be the way to go. For F9, you'd really be better off with the Moloch.

The dragon can also take better advantage of items by turning into human form. But it's hard to come up with a good use for these items when you can't use most of them in combat and all your magic is concentrated in one or maybe two paths.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

There's always the Pangaean Carrion Dragon, which does have recuperation if memory serves. It's not quite the 'traditional' dragon however.

Immobiles... well, there's the Fountain of Blood, which might be useful for jumpstarting a blood economy. There's the R'lyeh Void Lurker, which since it's alive can be turned into a mobile Wight Mage. The Oracle might be useful for an astral-9 blessing, while Mr. Flaming Skull has been pushed into F9/A9 by some although the scales will presumably suffer.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I'm just curious - but why do people ever go for N9 blessing? Maybe I just haven't figured out the right way to deal with this, or maybe I'm just giving it too much importance, but every time I've played with N4+ blessing - the berserker trait screws me over. Any sacred caster (including most importantly your Prophet, but this also happens a lot with both TienChi S&A and Pythium casters- two of my favorite nations) will get the berserk trait whenever they're blessed (and this is a permanent condition for the prophet). And believe me, if you're focused on mage power, the Last thing you want is you want is for your favorite Arch Theurg, or Celestial Master go running straight into the horde of enemy hydras just cause he got nicked with a sling bullet!

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Except you can't solo-conquer independents with a Moloch, because of the Imps. Until this gets fixed, I know many players who'll pick the Red Dragon over the Moloch.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

its not that difficult to conquer indeps w/ a moloch. just send in a little bit of useless backup.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I play N9 alot with jotunheim niefel theme. The combination of high hp and N9 regen on Jarls or giants really helps stop afflictions. Plus its usually not a bad thing when niefel giants or Jarls go beserk as they are extremely potent in small Groups, I've had my army run away but my 4 berserking niefel giants win the province more times than i can count. Plus with the Jarls they wont go berserk until they are blessed, and they can bless themselves AFTER casting quickness and get a breath of winter in on the same turn, about that time it doesnt matter if they berserk because i tell them to attack anyway.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Burning glyph and baphomet can also be turned into wight mages.

High nature magic can be usefull if you have sacred troops, but little sacred mages. Even with sacred mages you can postpone casting blessing till turn 5.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Not everyone has easy access to flying useless backup. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Exactly what I was going to ask about. I'd love to use Moloch w/ Abysia, but is there any appropriate backup for the early game w/ Abysia?

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

well, sure no flying useless backup, but most early expansion pretenders don't fly, and they still manage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

in the mid game when you want him jumping around, his natural cowardice is more of a problem, but for early expansion Its not too bad.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

If you firmly believe Moloch is able to handle the rabble all by himself? (he is)

A slow HI as far back as possible with 'hold and attack', or indy archer. Their main purpose is not to get themselves killed.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

What exactly is the Moloch bug?

Thanks,
John

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Its not so much a bug, just what's supposed to be an advantage that turns our extremely disadvantageous.

The Moloch spawns several imps at the begining of combat that immediately run in and get themselves slaughtered, then the survivors run away. This causes the Moloch to automatically flee because all normal units have been destroyed. The imps are supposed to be an advantage but end up turning an extremely powerful SC into a slightly impotent one.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I like the Scorpion King - rather cheap, tough, thematic (to some extent...), can use the starting Flare, can have 3 paths (I usually get Earth then Nature or Air), and lack of armor/boots is not that penalizing.
It's a rather subpar SC but can still be very potent IMHO.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

With water the scorpion king can give a decent bless & decent SC abilities W4 F4 E4 is nice for both. Not great as PDF says but pretty solid & does two jobs. Also he has lots of attacks & he is ambidextrous. I use a main gauche & fire sword early game plus the horned helm which gives 10 attacks with quickness. I will try 2 big swords or maybe faithful later game. He seem not to need the shield -certainly not for protection. If I waited to get him regeneration ring or gave him N2 he would be even better

Pickles

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Thanks. This is the sort of information I'm after. The Dragon/Wrym comparisions and ideas for the Scorpion King.

I'd been taking a conservative approach and backing even monster pretenders up with an army. But, properly scripted I guess I don't need it.

Nargot, the threads look intresting but . . . ma francais est plus mal.

Ah well.

Anyone ever weighted the general strengths of the standard human pretenders?

Rylen

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

yes. they all suck, but the freaklord sucks more.

well, if you count the skratti, he's good.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Human pretenders aren't THAT bad. They can only be safely used with nations whose initial armies can really mow down independents though, because you take a big hit in initial expansion with them.

With a human pretender, Twiceborn is a necessity. Once your human pretender turns into a wight mage (and let there be no doubt - he will get killed eventually) he becomes, if not exactly tough, a lot less weak than before.

Human pretenders, since they don't go into combat, can safely take astral magic.

Human pretenders research and site search *really fast*. If you have a human pretender you will have more gems than any other nation except for Ermor, who can afford a rainbow undead. Human pretenders also have unsurpassed forging ability. With an undead or titan pretender, after about turn 30, you'll have trouble finding them anything interesting to do. With a human pretender, normally the problem is deciding what important thing needs to be done now, vs. waiting a turn.

Among generally-available humans, my personal preference is the Crone. True, she's slow, and weak even by human standards. The speed doesn't matter that much - the only time she should ever leave the lab is to site search, and that can be done just fine with strategic move 1. And any human pretender that winds up in combat is in trouble anyway. On the positive side, she costs the least, and gets a whopping 4 misc slots. If by some miracle she survives until late game, her ability to wield magic boosters is unsurpassed. And if she doesn't, well, at least you got the cheapest wight mage.

The Master Druid is the best site-searcher. He starts with a point of nature, which helps, and he's stealthy, so he can accompany the army and search the turn after it's conquered. And the Frost Father is cold-resistant, which makes him good for cold nations. Of course, of the four cold nations (Jotunheim, Caelum, Vanheim, and Ermor), none of them have any business taking a Frost Father.

The Freak Lord isn't as horrible as he appears. He has extremely good defense, and the trample ability will let him deal with occasional enemies that get through his bodyguards in combat. This is also an excellent combination for dealing with assassins, but any human pretender should have bodyguards at all times. He loses a foot slot, but makes up for it with an extra miscellaneous slot, which IMO is more valuable. And he doesn't cost that much. When he was size-6 he was immune to Wind Ride, that's moot now. Of course, earth-4 magic is not a difficult thing for a rainbow pretender.

Among the nation-specific rainbow mages, the ***** Queen, Master Alchemist and Skratti deserve special consideration. The ***** Queen regenerates, has pretty good hitpoints for a human, and costs the same as less survivable humans. The Alchemist generates huge amounts of money. Finally, the Skratti is tough, as tough as any Jotun, and plenty strong enough to use as a combat-support mage. Or even an actual combat unit, if you feel lucky. The Skratti, of course, is broken in 2.11 and 2.12, but when he returns, will be so much better than any other rainbow pretender that you'll wonder how you got along without him. Other nation-specific "human" pretenders, the Warlock, Arch Druid, and Arch Seraph, don't really distinguish themselves that much (especially since the ***** Queen and Arch Druid are available to the same nation!). Still, they're typically going to be the best available human for the nation, because they have compatible resistances and abilities that complement their nation well.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I appreciated your post, Sheap. I've never tried a Skaratti. Why is he broken in 2.12?

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Oh, I see now. You can't even select him anymore!

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

I'm one of them who play 9 blessing dragons. Especially when playing C'tis.

C'tis - Miasma, dominion 8, Green Dragon with N9.
1. You spread deceases and expand your domion quickly.(coorect me if I'm wrong, you'll get extra income for each +1 domion strength in every province with Miasma).
2. Strong SC
3. Your Sacred Serpents gets berserk +3, immune poison 100%, regeneration. Back up with poison slingers and it really kick a**.
4. With N9 on your SC pretender you can cast some of the coolest spell IMO (enchantments like gift of health etc. which is good because you are a SC).
5. Make sure that your shaman(s) forge a amulet of luck...when you can afford it empowering your SC with water so you can cast quickness. Also make some Sacred Serpents to Commanders so they can lead your armies.

Another Dragon combination would be Caelum. but not bless 9. Blue Dragon W4 A4. Before the dragon goes to battle cast quickness, Mirror Image, etc. and again you have a killer machine http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


best regards
Thilock

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

This is a great thread for a semi-newbie. There used to be a list of all the bless effects elsewhere on this forum, but I can't find it. Am I just searching for the wrong thing (+"bless effect"), or did it get lost in the upgrade?

CC (a big fan of the enchantress ...)

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Read the Javascript pop-up page titled "Bless Effects guide by Nerfix" at this site.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Magnate, the bless effect list can be found here : http://www.dominionsx.com/guides.html

BTW, I just found another pretty good use for N9 bless : TC base/BK ... The Celestial Sldrs are sacred, and are IMHO as good as Niefels ! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Berserking regenerating Demons of the Heavenly River in S&A are one scary troop, as well.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Got it - thanks folks.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

As mentioned by someone else, the nature blessing works great for Jotunheim, since all their holy / sacred units and commanders are great burly warriors. (I suppose someone _might_ make one of their mages the Prophet, but the only reason I can see would be upkeep.) Niefelheim really is great with N9, because their sacreds are beefier (if much more expensive) than the Jotun Woodsmen.

N9 also works well with Machaka - the Hunter Lords and Black Hunters don't have the HPs to truly shine with regeneration, but with their very high armor, the regen helps keep them from getting afflictions, while the berserk is very good on them.

Similarly, Golden Age Arco's Wind Lords benefit both from the regeneration and the berserk. It's really the nations with sacred mages that N9 is dubious/tricky for.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Yep, that can be a problem with C'tis mages when they run berserking into the middle of the battle....BAD! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
The best thing would keep them as rear as possible.
What would be really worser is N9, on flying sacred units. it would turn into kemikaze pilots! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

That makes perfect sense. And thanks for your examples of cases where it is useful. Most of my experience both MP and SP is divided between TienChi S&A, Pythium and Abysia, all of whom have sacred mages.

Do you get Demons of HR in non-S&A themes? I know from experience that N9 (or anything >= N4) is awful with S&A.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Pretender Wight Mage? Intresting. So, instead of reviving your dead pretender with "Call God" you use the revive Death spell and get a disease spreading mummy? Or am I way off?

Rylen

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

You cast Twiceborn, and then arrange your pretender's death, after which he turns into a wight mage.

Wight mage = humanoid (usual slots), undead, landlubber, retains previous magic levels (unless feebleminded or muted in the process of dying, of course). No worries about disease spreading. Ritual of Rebirth probably doesn't work on pretenders.

I seem to recall that the Demons of HR are S&A-only, but it's been a while since I checked.

On Black Hunters and regeneration, a killed Black Hunter turns into a 55-(or so?) hp Hunter Spider. If that's still sacred, it'd be a pretty mean customer at N9 blessing.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Beware the lousy MR, though. Riderless spiders can't deal with the likes of Soul Slay - or worse, enslavement spells. Think about it if you have to face a strong astral nation.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Yes, the MR on Hunter Spiders is pretty much terrible. But I can confirm that the riderless spiders are still sacred, so your bless effects just keep on going.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

wow 2 days almost away and so much action on the board http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@rylen my pretender guide is about 2/3 finished .

my favourite pretenders at the moment are :
-for blessing i find the f9 bless most useful because it is good and you get it so cheap with the moloch http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
with fire darts + some troops to prevent rout he can kill indies quite well too

-as ulm the master alchemist he is the best rainbow (doubled benefits from alchemy) and ulm can afford . with all other nations i take rainbows only in sp

-vq in lots of variations she is still a very good sc and you don't need to care if she dies http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
midgame she becomes forger/caster ...

-pod as a cheaper but not immortal sc .



someone mentioned the scorpionking before : if you give him earth 4 + fire 4 and search with him e.g. as abysia it will boost your earlygame income great http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
for this he is the cheapest pretender + he is ok as sc .

imo mainly though a cheap pretender for early money advantage + lots of scales .

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

To fill in a little more detail: F9 is a triple-threat blessing. It makes sacred troops impressively powerful in combat, it gets you an SC pretender, and it helps build up your economy.

I've found that an E9 cyclops gets similar, tho not as stunning, effects. E9 also benefits sacred mages (and mages with Shrouds of the Battle Saint) with a little armor and reinvigoration.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Abysia with a F9/E9 Scorpion King and horrible scales, going for a Lava Warrior Bless strategy until you get the Blood and Devils flowing is pretty sweet too.

I would even lead my early army with the SK if possible. F9/E9 Magma Bolts is freakin horrible.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

Yup. I'm playing one of those now in another window. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I made my starting Slayer my prophet, and he goes thru indie commanders like a pair of red hot knives thru butter.

Re: Building a Better Pretender
 

hey that is a pretty good idea http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

i play abysia most times with horror scales too but with a almostrainbow sc instead .

for early expansion your scorpion king is really great he is probably hard to beat there http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

army 1 : scorpion king + the starting troops
army 2 soon : lava warriors + an anamath dragon http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
+ your uberslayer expanding furthermore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif

lol now i am thinking if this strat is perhaps even better than my own abysia strat http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon07.gif[/img]