Poll: morale and routing
 

My first poll, following on from interesting suggestions in the Dammit thread (thanks to Panther and Sheap). This may take some editing to get right ....

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

SC have plenty of advantages already, including low upkeep. No reason to make them even stronger. Now, if we take something and give something else, it's different. Such as greatly increasing the disadvantage of being surrounded. (-1 of each on front, -2 for each on flank, -4 for each on rear.).

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

battlemages would become MUCH stronger too .
they would be the real winners imho :

i would then only BUILD battlemages + scs to guard the battlemages .

this would be boring http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


the disadvantage of being surrounded is already high enough . 24 vampires can sorround 1 SC . No sc survives this .
with 11 attack for vampires about 5-15 should hit each turn depending on luck .
because of their ap attack they do normally always damage + fatigue which lowers defense again .

same with ghosts .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Surely battlemages would be almost the least affected? If something can rout a battlemage's escort, wouldn't the mage fail a morale check? They tend to have much lower morale than SCs. If they passed, they might get killed anyway.

Esben, I don't see this as making SCs any "stronger" - anything which can kill them will still kill them. It just removes a mechanic which hampers them unjustifiably. If you feel that this mechanic is necessary because they are too powerful, that's something slightly different. If you want to argue that SCs should be toned down, I won't disagree with you. But I still think the routing mechanic should be changed. It just doesn't make any sense that any commander routs without failing its own morale check.

CC

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

The same morale issues should also apply to troops. As a long term miniatures gamer it used to confuse me to see a few archers standing shooting when hordes of other troops went fleeing past but morale is only taken on a "squad" by squad basis not on an army level. On the whole the basic game systems are pretty simplistic but they do a job. The only real "bug" is that one point of PD is a liability if there is an SC, for example, around (as other situations can be worked around).

I would prefer a more sophisticated army morale system such that the morale of all units (leaders or "squads") was effected by things other than just their own casualties
(& eg fear spells). This would subsume the current quirks so that a unit would check morale if it's leader was killed or if another unit broke or was destroyed & heroes would be just another type of unit. There could even be more than 2 morale states, fine & routing could be joined by "shaken" -2 to att & def maybe.

However that would require a rebalancing of the game & is more a Dom3 wish list item rather than a patch issue so I am happier with the current system that some attempt to paper over a few cracks.

Pickles

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Sure it does. It's *common* sense. How many officers would stick around to face an enemy, alone, after their troops have fled? Answer: none that are sane.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I, too, would prefer a more miniatures-like morale system, but that -- as you say -- would entail a major rewrite of the game.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I'm getting quite frustrated here - you are just not getting the point. For a 10hp, 10 morale human commander yes, I agree with you, he won't hang around when all his men are killed. He will fail a morale check and flee.

For a 200hp, 30 morale uber-beast, it's a different matter. What do they care if the infantry or archers or whoever they are get mown down (probably trampled by their own fleeing mammoths)? Unless they are sorely wounded and fatigued themselves, they wouldn't rout. In a fantasy game, that's "*common* sense".

I'm not saying that anything major needs to change, just a morale check instead of an auto-rout.

CC

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Hm. Pick a movie, preferably featuring the most fearsome weapon of destruction known to Hollywood, Arnold the Brute. Mr Stallone probably applies too.

If he's fighting overpowering enemy with some companions, the minute the wimps flee Arnie follows to cover them or drag their bodies to safety.

After an emotional scene when companions preferably die, our hero embarks on a quest of revenge, packing the biggest guns available in the movie's universe. Eventually alone kicking butt of the army previously so overwhelming against the company of wimps.

So, it makes perfect sense that SCs with troops rout as the troops rout. And don't claim you haven't been brainwashed by Hollywood, everyone with an access to Internet has been.

:p

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I think I will wait and see if the dev's pipe in. I thought that was how it was done now. The commander has a morale setting, the routing of his troops is harmful to his roll but not absolute, and there is always the items which can boost morale.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

If only that were the case. I've seen a lot of undamaged morale 30 ice devils rout when a single PD archer gets killed - whatever the negative modifier for watching your comrades die is, it can't be that big. I'm inclined to believe those who tell me that it's an automatic rout (and there's no distinction between his troops and other commanders' troops).

CC

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

When all squads are killed or routed all remaining commanders flee, unless berserk etc.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

OK here's a crazy idea that the devs are free to ignore http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

use esben's suggestion about being surrounded, making SCs weaker. then, bring back the old dom I attack commanders battle option, to make battlemages weaker. then, poof, typical recruitable troops become more useful, and maybe the AI's massed armies strat might actually work.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Since the devs created Dom 2 primarily as a MP game, I seriously doubt that they'd bring back a command that would dramatically alter MP play just to attempt to fix a SP issue, and one they don't seem to consider much of an issue at that.

You've made an interesting suggestion. It just has about as much of a chance of ever happening as we have of ever seeing a major UI change. Snowballs in Abysia, anyone? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/skull.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Gee - I just lost a 200 HP, 30 morale uber-beast pretender, because after all the infantry and cavalry was mowed down, the _archers_ behind him were still plinking away at Man's heavily armored knights. Said knights surrounded uber-beast and lanced him into a grave in 2 turns, tops.

I'd say that yes, the SCs _should_ still pay attention to their troops, mostly.

IMO, it's only that summoned creatures shouldn't count / matter for making commanders rout, whether it be the Moloch's imps, or the single phantasmal warrior one of the mages stupidly summons after hir script runs out.

That, and possibly some changes to what happens when a commander dies in an all-commander force - force a morale check on each death, since if there are nothing but commanders then some friendly casualties might be expected.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Although I agree with Magnate and his description (I think the vision is: Big, bad, ugly Beast has his "army" of rabble which would just as easily jump on a sword and slay itself as run into enemy ranks -- Tolkien did some good descriptions of the Commander/Grunt psychology here), I think the current system must remain as it is until Dom3 comes around for balance reasons. If there were no autoroute, it would make certain scenarios (e.g. Wrathful Skies, Big Bad SC) overwhelmingly powerful, and that is a Bad Thing, since everyone would just rush to duplicate some form of overwhelmingly powerful scenario and the whole game would become a cookie-cutter boredom producer.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

well it already seems to me that the game is nothing but a race to the ice devils/ air queens...

but im just a n00b

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Actually, this is precisely the point. What sane commander would go ALONE into a battle anyway? The game simply should not reward a lone commander like it does now and heavily penalize the commander with a few troops or PD. It seems so very wrong to me. If anything, the game OUGHT to penalize the lone commander quite severly. Sending in a commander without an army is a somewhat warped and totally non-intuitive strategy that works only because of the current routing algorithm.

So, when the commander's troops are gone, no matter whether he brought any along or not at the start of the battle, he should rout fairly easily. But he should rout on his own, not because one measly point of PD has disapeared. The absence of troops should be nothing more than another strong factor in whether or not he will rout. Have him subtract 5-10 morale points or something like that because he has no army, regardless of whether it was killed in battle or he had none to begin with.

The current routing algortihm seems busted to me, despite the fact that people have figured a way to take advantage of it. Of course people want the status quo so they can continue to use the cheap flying SC strategy and not have to bother with the mundane and expensive thing like having an actual army.

This is just another of the reasons the AI plays poorly. It tries to build a real army, which does not work overly well against the lone SC attack, especially the SC pretender strategy.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I completely agree with Panther here.
As a TBS game vet, thats the only flaw buggin me with Dom2 so far.

Lets have 2 exactly similar SC facing each other :
- one is alone
- one is grouped with some small unit(s)

The one with extra small units will be the one routed.
(as soon as the small unit gets killed)

I can't see any common or roleplaying sense here.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

if you exchange though some small units with some good units the one with the good units wins .

and a lone sc has no chance against an antisc-sc or against a sc killer brigade .
while the sc with troops has good chances to win against them .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

That has nothing to do with the fact that a grouped SC is handicaped versus a lone similar one.

I even thought it was a bug when i first started playing.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Boron, I can't help but feel that you have totally missed the point here. Your explanations clearly say to me that you have figured out how to use this odd inconsistency correctly. I already knew that, of course. Many others have done the same as you and figured out how to exploit this error.

The point is that ANY SC with ANY troop OUGHT to be superior to the identical SC without troops. Period!

But troops actually hurt your chances, not help. It does not matter that you or me or anyone else has figured how to get around this weird thing but using non-routing troops or power summons or whatever, it still stands as a violation of a fundamental axiom of war. Superior forces should win more often than lose, not the converse. This is something they taught me when I was an officer in the United States Navy and certainly rings true.

And MOST ESPECIALLY when the superior force is primarily caused by being home and in the presence of Province Defense.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Well I have to say that you hit it on the head.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Just one thing is confusing me, which is what Cainehill said about battlefield summons. I thought when phantasmal warriors, or false horrors or whatever - when they got killed, the mage just carried on as if nothing had happened. I didn't think it caused routing like with troops brought in at the start of the battle. Maybe I've not been watching carefully, but I thought I'd seen my mages carry on casting.

CC
P.S. Where did I get three stars from?? I had none yesterday, one this morning and three now. Does having an Online spat with someone half a world away get you stars??

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Apparently so. In the real world, having a spat risks *seeing* stars.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

ok it is perhaps not really realistic .
but it is needed for gamebalance .

just see it this way as somebody wrote already:
an elite lone warrior like "rambo" doesn't withdraw until he is killed or captured .
so the lone sc .

if "rambo" has some friends with him ( the archers lol ) and they are wounded he withdraws to help them .

i have now gotten your point and you are right it isn't logical but it stands at least in the manual http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.
and i think it is needed for balance too because otherwise i wouldn't use any troops at all expect freespawns anymore probably .
given how useless most national troops + lower summons already are taking away the role of route preventer from them makes them really useless .
i wouldn't even need them for sieging because my antisc-scs would have gate cleavers for that .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

getting back to Esben Mose Hansen's idea it would be really nice if the numbers were configurable at game launch.

So if we had the following configurable parms:

FrontFighterAdjustment=
FlankFighterAdjustment=
ReadFighterAdjustment=

That would be quite cool. It would allow people to specify ( basically ) if they wanted SC's to be then end goal in their game or not.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I think the point Boron is trying to make is that the gameplay is balanced, which imo is way more important than any perceived 'realism'. Yes its very quirky that PD can often be a detriment in a high powered SC fight, but this also causes to you to think about your army composition alot more instead of just throwing everything you possibly can at the enemy. You have to consider whether or not your chaff is going to be able to hang with the big boys the duration of the battle and whether or not the big boys should just go in alone. In the end your playing a game whose prime goal is to entertain, not accuratly and scientificaly represent mythical battles.

Bottom line for me, its quirky and i'd like to see it change, but its by no means a priority. I'd much rather see the dev's spend their time adding more content to the game than fixing percieved irrationalities.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Thats the whole point,
gameplay is - unbalanced - because of the current routing system , especially as the AI fails to work around it like players do.

This clearly shows that it's a very basic flaw, and not any perceived irrationality.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Another, simple idea that would fix this problem: Make armies without troops rout always, without exception. Would make SC use so much more ... interesting. And summoned troops, single point of PD etc. would no longer be a liability, which I agree makes little sense.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

An exception should be made, if IW were to do this, for lone pretenders. Gods should not be subject to the same rules as mortals.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Hmm. Down to two stars this morning. What's going on?? I thought it was like the ranks, in that they accumulated over time or something, but obviously not. Is somebody rating my Posts somewhere?

Anyway, good morning Arryn - how are you today?

CC

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Why not? How can the god do battle without the support of his believers? Without belief the god is nothing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Besides, making it so for everybody makes it more even, and SC (including Gods) will still be important... they just need to lug around an army of sufficient size, instead of being one-man-armies.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

It worked well enough for Thor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif

A SC pretender *is* a one-"man" army. He/she/it shouldn't require help from mere mortals to crush small numbers of those opposed to his/her/its aims. It's a truly weak deity that cannot strike down even a single mortal without the need for there to be some friendly witness to the event. Such a pathetic deity wouldn't deserve to continue to exist. How laughable would be "Fear me, for I am all-powerful ... um, wait, where's my adoring audience?"

You are using the Dominions game mechanic that a pretender must have dominion to continue to exist as a justification for battlefield behavior (namely routing). The two (need for dominion and a god's morale/routing behavior) do not, of necessity, need to be connected.

Last, but not least, exempting SC deities from rules changes that would affect lesser SCs would preserve the thematic aspects of mighty Titans, Wyrms, and Dragons able to lay waste to most opponents, as is seen in myth and legend. From a thematic standpoint, it's absurd that a demi-divine dragon couldn't face down some impudent human knight-wannabe and his entourage of swordsmen without help. "I'm sorry, I cannot roast all of you to cinders now because my lackey is missing. Come back later."

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

i agree with everything esben has said here. either of his suggestions sound good to me ( the less SC use, the more fun the game is for me. but thats just me )

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

and what would you do with immortality ?

it would strengthen the vq again to what she was pre 2.12 .

and wraith lords + vampire lords would be even more liked scs too .
furthermore sg ermor with their summonable immortal wraith centurion etc. leaders would get an unfair edge too .


if you would remove the fight to death with immortality rule it would be bad too because this would be very strange and not logic .

immortality is though a bit too strong perhaps .
i think it is not possible but perhaps you could add the following mechanism :
each time an immortal leader dies he has to pay 10 blood slaves or he dies .
immortal units get counters .
when they accumulate 5 counters they are too weak to revive again .

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Or even better yet, each time an immortal dies, it loses say 20 random points of strength/attack/defense/MR/HP/etc, thus making it weaker and weaker each time it spawns after death. Vampires themselves should also be subject to this weakening effect. By the time your VQ has died 5 times or so, it would thus become permanenty weak and die even faster, just like the mortal pretender who has lost all its magic and is covered with afflictions from too many battles. As for the vampires, when they drop to 0 hit points in the next spawn, they would be permanantly dead.

I agree that immortality is too strong, especially given the self healing of afflictions.

And I must say that I REALLY like the Moses Hansen idea that any commander automatically routes with no troops. This would be a piece of cake for the devs to implement also, by just simply removing the artifical construct where a lone commander is treated diferently than commanders with troops.

But immortality would be the exception to this auto-rout rule, just as it is now. Though this might make immortality even MORE stronger, which would be a very bad side effect.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I briefly considered the immortal problem. But since immortals CAN be fought effectively, since it is limited to positive dominions, I didn't find it too problematic. Also, the immortal looses all those items when they die, which also helps. If it is still a problem, make the immortal gain a few afflictions when they die. Yes, they will heal, but it takes time, and that is enough in my opinion --- If the SC have to sit around and wait for 5 or 10 turns before being usable again, plus having to pay 50+ gems in items, a price has been paid. If we're going to play REALLY tough immortals could use a magic path point or two, but I think this is going over the top. And more work to develop.

To Arryns comment I can only say: My idea is consistent with existing design, it makes sort of sense, and it will weaken those SC pretenders, so that we may actually see human pretenders again. I mean, when did you Last encounter one in MP? I have never seen one --- except in games where human pretenders were forced.

Plus, the idea is simple to implemented, right devs? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

This seems like it is turning into "I want immortality nerfed because it annoys me." If it were really that strong, everyone would play immortal pretenders, but in reality other than Abysia, Caelum and Ermor, it is rare.

Immortal pretenders pay, on average, roughly 70 points for the privilege. The fact that Abysia, Caelum and Ermor have more points to spend and can afford it is certainly not a coincidence. Immortal non-pretender units cost 50-100% more than comparable non-immortals. Not to mention that immortals that die still lose all their equipment (except for pretenders, this is often more valuable than the unit itself), can still get afflictions (whether they die or not), which don't heal right away, still lose the battle, and get sent back to the home province, which may or may not be conveniently located. And if you're not fighting in friendly dominion, immortality doesn't do anything except raise your price.

In reality, Esben's proposal doesn't fix anything, it just creates another problem that obscures the current one by forcing it on everyone. Instead of having strange routing behavior, we will have problems of "my SC should be able to fight this force by himself, but he can't because he hasn't brought his militia with him." And then anti-SC combat tactics, instead of revolving around defeating the SC, will instead revolve around killing his scrubs so he has to flee. This is not an improvement.

Edit: On the subject of human pretenders, the reason we don't see them in MP is because the Ghost King is too good. For a seven path rainbow mage, the GK costs you about 90-110 points over a human in chassis and path costs, has 2 points more dominion, and starts with death magic. The dominion and death magic alone nearly make up for this increased cost, and you've then basically got the GK's exceptional fighting skills for free, instead of legendary human wimpiness. From a pure power standpoint the only "human" that competes with the GK is the Skratti. For humans to be viable in MP, their "secondary skills" (gem generation, research bonus, whatever) need to be a LOT stronger, or they need to get significantly more starting magic (I'm talking 3-4 points in a single path here), or the GK needs to get worse, or some combination of these. Strong starting magic in particular paths could also help distinguish humans from each other.

With the GK out of the equation, humans become the only way to gain magical diversity, and become a lot more interesting. Although whether their searching/forging ability makes up for the lack of a good starting (titan/undead) SC, is debatable.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

That's not how I read it. I don't know how you could read it that way.

It's clearly a thread about nerfing SC's and the way some people want to do that is by changing the moral system slighty. The problem that follows is immortal units do not flee and so they may have to be special cased.

The people who want to nerf SC's via this method should also figure out what they are going to do about the beserk ability since the clear workaround to the SC retreating is to manufacture a suituation in which he goes beserk ASAP.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Esben is not saying that I think, but Panther and Boron are, and I want to take a stand in favor of immortality being just fine the way it is before the anti-immortality bandwagon gets rolling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

if it does start rolling ima jump on it in a new york minute

i think esben's suggestion rules:

ok so you have:
case 1: troops and commanders - all commanders die - troops rout
case 2: troops only - troops rout at start of battle
case 3: troops and commanders - all troops die - commanders rout
so why not case 4: commanders only - commanders rout at start of battle

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

You left out "in friendly dominion", an important distinction. They can rout outside of it. Their morale might make it difficult, but it's not impossible.

But I'm quibbling. Your post was very good and raised an excellent point re: berserk, a trait that almost everyone discussing SCs has been ignoring. I keep mentioning the bloody Berserker Pelt and folks keep sidestepping the issue.

Thanks for bringing it back to the fore.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Remind you of anything? Such as the anti-VQ threads of a few months ago? Kinda makes you wonder what folks will want nerfed next?

Oh, and your analysis of Esben's proposal is dead-on. Good work, and well-stated.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

mose i like your ideas http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

with immortals my main problem are not THE scs but VAMPIRES combined with unequipped immortal leaders !


one of my favourite strats is to take vq , bloodhunt , get lots of vampire lords which autosummon vampires .

then i can push dominion via blood sacrifice as abysia / vanheim / mictlan .

then i slowly push my dominion and when i have positive dominion i attack with some vampire lords , my vq + a horde of vampires .

all unequipped .
so when i lose i lose nothing just 1-3 turns to move to the front again .

defeating a vq which buffs , vampire lords which cast spells + a horde of vampires is really tough though when repeated several times .


you may not win with your first attacks but your enemy will always lose parts of his forces .

so in the long run you will probably always win .
on turn 100 of a game you have probably accumulated 50-100 vampire lords at least which means 50-100 vampires / turn for free through summon allies .

so from turn 100 - turn 110 you get about at least 500-1000 extra vampires for FREE .

if you make it to excess as e.g. abysia until turn 50 you have probably already about 300-500 vampires + 20-30 vampire lords .

if you play a wish nation wishing for blood and pushing hordes of vamps is good too .
caelum e.g. can then spread dominion via stealthpreach + use the vampire horde tactic in lategame too very well .




so i think at least the summon allies commando from the vampire lords should be taken away

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Seems to me the least popular selection in this poll is the best, unless I'm not considering something.

Panther's suggestion of a morale check is flawed because there are really two different types of commanders for this question - ones which might want to stand alone against an enemy army, and everyone else, who wouldn't, as Arryn pointed out.

Sheap's suggestion would allow players to provide an exception to the general rule, and this would also solve the long-standing issues with super combattants routing when their minor allies rout.

PvK

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

Well I can certainly understand the desire to leave the current system alone. But in reality no matter the situation you will have cases where your units either rout too soon or don't rout soon enough.

I really don't think Panther's idea is very good, though. Instead of having all your commanders rout because your troops died, instead half of them would rout, leaving the other half to die. So now instead of routing and losing the battle, you rout, lose the battle, and then a bunch of your mages die as well.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

hmmm... if you lose the battle, dont you think you deserve to lose half your mages?

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

I'd have to agree with all of this. What Esben's suggestion would do is replace one strange and slightly irrational dynamic with another. Sure commander + group dynamics would make more sense now, but instead of attacking the SC everyones strategy would basically revolve entirely around getting rid of his chaff. This would give an ENOURMOUS advantage to the nations that can spit chaff (Caelum, Ermor, Ctis..) As they can simply spit chaff long enough to tie the SC up and kill or route his troops, then the SC splits too. With some creative cloud trapeezing or ghost riders he has nowhere to go too and you now have a dead SC, without ever actually having to deal with him. It would almost completly re-define the dynamic of the game and the balance therein, as major strategies like wrathing would now be almost useless.

The game IS balanced right now, and well. One little change like this will NOT bring the AI up to par because the AI's still going to be ignorant of so many other strategies (ghost riders, castling, vampire spam, clam hoarding).

I definetly dont think a major re-define of the game dynamic is justified because a few people dont like the way combat plays out, plenty of other people DO like the system and you'd be forcing this change on them. I'd be all for an optional mod that does this, but thats about as far as i'd want to go.

oh, and i second the motion of buffing up the human pretenders, i personally would like to see each one of them start with 2 in 2 seperate paths, making them double bless contenders which currently only fire and astral really have.


[edit] Nevermind the cloud trapez'ing part, as the proposed patch would all but eliminate its offensive capabilities.

Re: Poll: morale and routing
 

No.


Any military commander who's not brain-dead knows when a battle is lost and when to retreat to save his forces for another day. Only a fool or a madman (not that there's a difference) wastes valuable lives.