Anti-SC Army
 

I read about them Online, but so far have seen no examples posted. Give your favorite anti-SC army, the SC(s) it works well against, and the anti-anti-SC counter.

Damn, this game is good.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Im sure others will answer as you are expecting, multiple shooters with that 999 damage crossbow, slow-down spells while the shooting is happening, thousands of cheap shooters like slingers to boost the chance of routing it.

But, to me the tactic of SuperCombatant (either pretender or summoned creature) loaded with EQ until it can kick everything.. is a tactic of one large army. Meeting it head-to-head with one large army is not the response I tend to think of. My response against any 1-large-army tactic is many-small-armies chopping away at his provinces faster than he can claim them back. I especially like the nations which can field a decent sneak army. Man, Vanheim, Pangaea. Take his province, pay it up on defence, put some units in the queue, sneak on. If you arent those nations then maybe you can make an arrangment with them to let them slip thru your area.

Another tactic I like is stealing his SC from him. Various spells can try to get it to switch sides. If he has it traveling with an army, and you have some decent air magic, use "Wind Ride" or whatever it is to snatch his commanders from his army until you get the SC. Dump them into provinces where you can handle it by itself, maybe with a bunch of spellcasters waiting to cast those "switch side" spells.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Interesting thoughts...

The small armies is just generally a good idea. It's not inconceivable you could undermine your opponents income base causing him to lose troops from failure to pay upkeep. I think the key is going underground after each strike, lest the SC can strike back at you. You can also pop several forces close to each other so that if any force wins, the others have a place to rout to (may depend on order of combats).

For wind ride, that's good against many, but etherealness or Earth 4 (does this have to be natural or can it be items) can stop it. Given how much I see shadow cloaks, this loses some potency. I think this is better for mini-SC's and de-commandering large armies vs specifically SC support armies.

For the options you did *not* mention, do ethereal crossbows really work given starshine skullcaps & anti-magic amulets? Knowing that MR negates, I'd think you need a ton of these things and better hope the SC does not have Pheonix Pyre or something like it... Seems like their is low threshold for success there... The thousands of slingers never occurred to me - interesting idea however...

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

yeah it is so deep http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

cost effectiveness not considered :
death 4 mages ( e.g. demilichs / vampires / wraith lords ) . casting 5 times lifedrain .
guard them with some undead lifeless fodder or better living statues or the like .
if you can add 1-2 mages with the following it is cool :
death 3 fire 1 and nature 1 .
scripted to eagle eye , 4x banefire .

E3S1N1 mages can cast eagle eye + gifts from heaven this way .


if you have a flying and strong death 2 mage ( tartarian / pretender ) you can try the following :
attack , 4x hand of death http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon10.gif



my favourite anti sc army : a horde of vampires with vampire lords scripted to either attack , 4x hand of death or empowered to death 4 scripted to 5 times lifedrain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


100-200 vampires alone can kill every sc most probably http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif



a classic anti-sc-sc has high strenght + an armor negating weapon like gate cleaver . this way 1 hit is normally already enough : 29+strenght+2d6oe damage http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
for this again pretenders or tartarians are good because the sc needs to be tough in case he has bad luck and doesn't hit in the first combat round .


a sc can be killed by pretty much though .
2 ghost riders are already very dangerous for 1 fully equipped ice devil e.g. or another high class sc .

ermors + pangeneas troops are quite good sc killers on their own already .

against ae ermor undead horde a fireshield does wonders though . but that is not really common sc buff/equipment .
against pan cw a very high mr is good .
but those sleep vines are really brutal 50-100 pangenean carrion beasts have really good chances killing every sc expect one with 28+ mr perhaps built with unique items .

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

While small armies can work, depending on the nations (such as Caelum and stealthy nations) and situation, it is rare that your opponent has one large, well equipped SC and no army of his own. You may go to raid his territories but if you are posing no opposition, he may raid yours just as heavily and possibly even more efficiently if his SC is running rampant and he doesn't worry about stealth troops.

- Kel

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Depending on how much they invest into buffing MR, a few mages casting charm/hellbind heart/control the dead/soul slay with a rune smasher and spell focus can be fun. Otherwise I like a bunch of demiliches with a skull staff and boots of quickness with some lifeless chaff in front of them (mechanical men or lifeless undead maybe) spamming drain life. Or enough illithids can eventually paralyze almost anything without ridiculously high MR. And once they're paralyzed you can chop them up with anything if they don't have astral shield/fire shield. If they do you probably need tougher troops or your own mini SCs.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

spamming drainlife would be good, except its D4, making it tough to come by.

What about having a 6 casters do quickness and 4 frozen hearts. That's 120 armor negating non-resistable damage per round, with 100 precision. The range is crappy (20 i think), but after the third round, if you haven't routed, the SC should be pretty much dead (which is good, cos with only W1, they'd be close to exhaustion after casting it 4 times in two rounds). the real advantage is that W1 casters are really easy to come by, and almost every race has them (from a random). So it "should" be easier to get a group of W1 casters in midgame then a group of D4 casters.

Edit: if you recruited a sage every turn, by midgame you'd have enough sages with W1 to form an anti-SC group. Give them some undead or lifeless fodder, and you've got an insanely cheap SC killer!

Of course the counter to this would be to send other mini-SC or troops with the main SC. This would absorb some of the frozen hearts, and by the end you might not kill the guy you wanted to, if any... of course its easy to counter this counter: you just get more casters (12 W1 sages on this script can obviously take out twice as many SCs!)

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Yes, but while drain life cannot be resisted by any means, many, many of the tough guys are immune to cold... and even when they are not, cold immunity is really easy to get.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Mandragora, carrion beasts, ect. are also a very good counter. Leech works much like drain life but mages to cast it are much easier to come by.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

i just tested it.. the frozen hearts, like anything else, can be easily resisted almost all the time with high magic resistance. I had a Wyrm sit there taking 20 frozen hearts per round, and with 26 MR and regeneration, it never lost any health.

ah well.. so much for that idea

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Petrify and Drain life are the best Anti-Sc ranged spells i believe. Petrify because a success is instant death and a failure is still parylization. There's also a death magic item that gives the ability to cast drain life, and also makes the AI more willing/likely to cast it (skull standard?). Some sample armies might be...

Vanheim

Living statues to provide lifeless (important against life draining SC's) and tough support.
Van commanders to cast false horror (more lifeless support, thats also free)

This would be the front of your force that's used as a screen for several dwarfs casting summon earthpower then petrify over and over.

*OR*

Blood nations

A literal horde of vampires. They are immortal, undead (dont provide life), flying, and their attack is a lifedrain.

*OR*

Death nations

A group of D4 mages set to cast drain life/summon skellies/drain life/summon skellies/drain life. With a little skeleton chaff in front to keep them alive until their own skeletons are enough of a shield.

Pangea could also be very good at casting petrify, petrify, petrify, relief, etc... with maybe some living statues out front to hold the enemy up.

Basically i believe a SC killer army should attempt to include a combination of lifeless troops, because SC's feed on meatbags, and also a armor piercing non resistable spell. Prefferably petrify or drain life, although there are others that rely on the SC not having that resistance.

Alteration btw gets you both of my favorite anti-SC spells, plus a bunch of chaff spells, not to mention all the spells YOUR SC's should be using. Its my favorite path aside from possibly conjuration...or construction....or maybe thaumaturgy.... possibly enchantment for the Go*'s...wrath is nice too....and bloods not even a path, its more like a college of its own....sigh.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Actually, they aren't lifeless so they do provide life. But they are pretty decent units, esqcially if your opponent isn't using a staff of storms. One of the best ways to get SCs is to take them out before/while they're buffing. Devils and vampires can be pretty good at that depending how protected the SCs are.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

hmmm.. do you think investing points into an Air9 Bless is worth it? It wouldn't work with every race, but if you had an army of sacred units that are almost immune to lightning, Wrathful Skies would become your best friend (gem income permitting). It seems like a big points investment though..

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Magic resistance has no effect on frozen heart.

What other items and magic did you have on it to bring its magic resistance up to that level.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

Undead do provide life when drained. It's only units that are specifically marked as lifeless that do not, and vampires aren't lifeless.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

wrathful skies can be negated too by lightning resistence .

as i already said and cheezeninja too the spells against which you can't resist are your best bet http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

the false horrors shouldn't work too well because they have a mr-negates attack + many scs have fireshield which should kill them too easy .

but against undeads dust to dust etc. is good.
against all drain life , bane fire , gifts from heaven always work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

and some of the mr-negates spells are really good too especially petrifiy because it makes the scs at least immobile and if they fail one mr-savethrow they are dead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

all in all though not too many methods to surely kill a sc come to my mind :
only the above mentioned spells drain life , bane fire , gifts from heaven

creatures :
a vampire horde / ghost horde

and of course antisc-scs .

what works in most cases too but can be unlucky or very expensive :
screens of lifeless creatures ( undeads , the earth constructs like living statues )

petrify , soul slay , charm , enslave mind



all in all you either need :
for spells :
E3S1
D3F
D4
(B1)

for creatures :
D4B3 for vampires
D5 for costeffective autosummonghosts from wraithlords

that makes death/earthmages most desireable as battlemages .

for a few nations this creates problems :
marignon
man
tien chi (expect s&a)

these 3 nations are somewhat magically really inflexible and have no easy sc counters .

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

If you have even a modest supply of Nature gems and an N2D1 mage you can spit out a lot of mandragoras. A big group of mandragoras is tough for a SC to handle, what with their multiple fatigue inducing attacks per round.

A Fire 9 blessing makes sacred troops a potential anti-SC force. Even if the SC is Fire Immune, the blessing will give your troops magic weapons and a hefty attack bonus. Of course this only works if you can recruit sacred troops in fairly large numbers.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

this is both only true until mid-lategame .

the mandragoras sleep vines are mr-negates .
i always give my scs starshine skullcap + amulet of antimagic . a pretender / ice devil has then 24 mr .
if my sc can cast fireshield then the mandragoras really suffer .
as pan cw you don't need to care so for them it is true because it doesn't really matter how many are killed as long as they win http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

but for other nations it is very costy .


the fire 9 blessing is good too but in lategame it is not reliable anymore .
vanheim + marignon are the best firebless Users i think .
marignon has difficulties massing many knights since they are capitol only .
with a special sc like a airqueen with storm + wrathful skies combo i can wipe out the knights easy .

vanheim is better there since they can massproduce their vans and they are stealthy .
but vanheim can't make them fire immune so i could wipe them out with a strong fire spell lategame .

if my sc has high hp + high protection + a fireshield + lifesteal you need many many many vans to kill him .
this is all not too hard to achieve .
the main problem with the fire blessing is that it does "only" 8 ap +2d6 damage .
so if i have 30 protection ( invulnerability ) it is still like 15 protection .
that means it is 8+2d6oe damage vs. 15+2d6oe protection .
luck cancels 50% of the hits furthermore .

so you need much luck to do enough damage in 1 battleround to kill the sc .

against high hp highend scs you have bad chances to inflict enough damage then with your f9 bless vans even .

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

I just thought I'd mention that the movie "Hero" (starring Jet Li) was just released today in North America, and its great! That movie really embodies the fantasy of a single SC killing thousands of heavy infantry and archers/crossbowmen without breaking a sweat!

If you ever doubt that SC should be so powerful in Dominions, go see (or download) that movie, and you'll realize the sheer joy of a single super combatant defeating entire armies.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

If you liked "Hero", you might be interested to know that the director Zhang-Yimou has a new wuxia film out in Asia: "House of Flying Daggers". It stars Zhang Ziyi, who made her name in "Crouching Tiger Hidden Dragon".

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

I didn't claim that my suggestions were sure-fire SC killers, just that they are reasonable ways to take on SCs, in general, without a SC of your own. There's no single army or strategy that will defeat every possible SC. But the reverse is also true. No single SC can be optimally designed to fight off every possible army that can be thrown at it. For instance, the Ice Devil you describe as being perfect for fighting off mandragoras isn't going to be nearly as effective fighting the pack of fire blessed Vans that you describe in the next paragraph.

Re: Anti-SC Army
 

your strats are not bad but i think as i said a lifeleech brigade with some lifeless guards like living statues takes down EVERY sc .

and a large enough vampire horde too .