A question on Atlantis
 

You get to recruit a 3w 2s mage for 180. For 70 more the 2s becomes 2random. I have a boatload of seer kings with evry combo of w and s but ZERO anything else. Am i snakebitten or is atlantis that lame?
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Kings of the Deep cost 290, dont they? And I am pretty sure you are snakebitten

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

You are snakebitten. The deep seers are quite powerful because the two random can be any ability and are always 2 of the same one. It's really nice to get a mage with 5 water that way and he can eventually cast neifel flames.

I always get pissed when my deep seer comes with the 2 astral, for it is a waste of the gold since the other guy is cheaper with identical abilities.

In my current Atlantis game, 3 of my first 6 seers came with blood, so I have a nice blood economy going already.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

as I remember the 2? are both in the same path, so your bad luck is a bit more understandable. just buy some more http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

It does seem that sorcery Kings of the Deep are slightly more common than elemental ones, but I could be wrong. How many is "a boatload"? Maybe your game is bugged.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

yep they are either 5w or 2s, swore i had a split but i dont . Ty for the info i'll keep calling em

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

yes, but how many of them do you have?

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

6 !
err 5 one was a free commander

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

so even counting even distribution, there's a one in four chance that a king of the deep has water or astral as their randoms. so for 5 of them that's a 1/1024 chance. Not great odds, but not unbelievable either.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

No ...but I didnt know they came paired, then its off the wall bad if they are not, also if I wasnt unlucky and the antlanteans where borked , I kinda wanted to know to stop beating my head on the wall.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

I just checked my Atlantis game. I have 8 deep seers with the double randoms as follows:

1F
1S
2D
1N
3B

Since this is 7 of 8 for sorcery over elemental, I am definitely inclined to agree with Yossar that sorcery is more common.

I would consider yourself lucky that you got some of the 5 water guys, Frosted, for that looks quite uncommon to me.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Taking data from 2 games:

Game 1

4B
2D
2N
2S

2A

Game 2

3B
1D
4N
4S

2A
1F
3W
1E

Total

22 Sorcery
9 Elemental

Looks like it's about twice as likely to get a sorcery pick. Interesting.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Thanks for all the feedback! I just got my turn back and I got a 2a guy. Just what i wanted http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Hmmm, just ran a test.

Conscripted 51 of these really expensive mages.

Fire 5
Water 10
Air 10
Earth 7
Astral 4
Death 4
Nature 5
Blood 6

Looks like of random to me. I *suppose* the W5 guys are really good, but that's a lot to pay.

I would rather have a 1W2S guy that I could use 16 communicants with and be able to cast 8 nifel flames before passing out ( of course the problem is that if the combat runs any amount of time all of the communicants will die ... ahh the one problem with communion ).

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

nice test .

the 1W2S guy you have already in your Deep Seers though with 3W2S !

CR negates the damage from niefel flames though ?

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Expensive? Compare them to Starspawn, Black Sorcerors, Vanadrott's or Panii for some obvious examples.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

They are really expensive. 290 for a non-sacred mage is a lot of coin.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Yes, I agree that they are a bit too expensive, maybe by 50 gold or so. But it is probably due to the fact that the two randoms is in the same ability, which is much better than 2 level 1 skills in general.

However, no matter the cost, Atlantis has to build them in order to get magic versatility.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Black Sorcerors are F2E2D1?1 and 250 gold.
Pan are N3E2?1 for 350 gold.
Starspawn are S3W1?2 and 280 gold.
Vanadrott are A3B1?1 and cost upkeep like 200 gold units.

Kings of the deep cost more because they have excellent physical stats, so they are much harder to kill than human mages.

Kings of the Deep give you great access to both ritual magic and forging. They give Atlantis the ability to use every path of magic that's available. Voice of Tiamat gives you all the elemental gems. Deep seers give you astral, and the Kings of the Deep give you the death, nature, and blood.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Kings of the Deep are definitely priced fairly. What other nation can recruit mages with 2 strength of every type? R'lyeh can, but they'll need about eight times as many as Atlantis to do it. Also, underwater provinces tend to have very good income and with lobsters and coral guards, Atlantis is the best at taking them. So they can afford a lot of mages. It would be nice if Kings of the Deep couldn't come with Astral, but it's probably not worth the effort to code in.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

i think the kings of deep are a bit too expensive .

-the black sorceror has 6 paths in total and costs 40 gold less . it transforms when wounded into an spider .
F2E2 makes excellent battlemagic .

-the pan : he has excellent battlemagic : charm , blade wind , with random fire pick magma eruption etc.
furthermore with turmoil he generates hordes of freespawn troops , the maenads
he is even more tough than a king of the deep because he can buff himself with e.g. personal regeneration , ironskin/invulnerability etc.

-the starspawn : 6 instead of 5 paths , the astral 3 is very useful in battle .
10 goldcost less then the king of the deep and very good HPs too .

-the vanadrott : normally unneeded because the cheaper vanjarl can do almost the same for 100 less gold .
the van mages are rather good battlemages too thnx to glamour and air battlemagic .




you are correct that the Kings of the Deep give you access to every path .
but most path increasing items need lvl 3 to forge .

so ryleh is a much better candidate for this .
they get 2* paths too but their starspawns are their main battlemages too so you have normally bigger numbers of them .
ryleh can midgame forge a ring of sorcery/wizardy so they get then easier +2 to sorceries and +1 to wizardy .

if you want to reach somewhere expect water lvl 5 , e.g. earth 5 for forge of the ancients or air 5 for airqueens etc. i think normally ryleh can reach it quicker than atlantis .

the problem is just that atlantis lacks useful battlemages so they have severe problems midgame . and their abilities to make scs are somewhat limited too .

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Personally I think the Clam Hoarding skill of Atlantis supply totally to the cost of his mages.

Indeed the total range of Magic that is affordable by Atlantis is great.
Underwater Voice of Tiamat rules. You start to gain some income for casting all other site searching spell on surface except death and blood ... but you can always alchemize your astral pearls (clam clam).

About combat magic, Atlantis has some more difficulties, but the fact every King of the Deep can quicken, and start firing spells of every element for the Atlantis enemy is difficult to say from what to protect.

In addition Atlantis (and Ryleh) has a lot of Globals and RItuals suited for his defence.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Voice Of Tiamat finds all Elemental sites. That means no blood, death, astral, nature, holy and unholy. The most interesting underwatersites are astral, so it's imperative that you add an astralsitesearching spell to your mages' duties.



That said, I certainly don't share the conviction of some selfdeclared experts http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif that Atlantis is weak. Watermagic leaves a bit to be desired in terms of summons and impressive combatmagic, but the nation itself works very well. Frozen Heart is a great spell, especially against small Groups of elite soldiers, or not frost-immune SCs.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

That is not true.
For me,especially in MP,Earth and Death are the most important magic paths for Atlantis besides Astral and Water.
Earth for Dwarfen hammers and Death,because there are lots of nice summons,which fit very well into Atlantian troops.
Both have path enhancing items already at level 2,so no problem there.
In addition,also Nature has enhancing items at level 2...Astral...Water...

I feel that it has become usual for some people to consider certain nations or strategies weak or strong ,without ever having tested them enough in practice.
You know,there is a huge difference between theory and actual very deeply done playtesting(mainly MP),especially in this very complex game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I consider Atlantis to be a medium nation...playing water nations under certain conditions can be a huge advantage though.
The King of the Deep is for sure a strength of Atlantis and because of the 2 randoms belonging to the same path,it is not overpriced.
Also dont forget ,that it can be built everywhere.This should lead to a different result when comparing it with e.g. the Black Sorceror.

Regarding combat magic,I do agree with Cohen and Karacan.
The strength for Atlantis here,lies in the great diversity of available spells in addition with quickness.
Also you get access to some quite uncommon path combinations,which can surprise the enemy in combat.
If your enemy isnt frost immune,you are strong with quickened falling frost,niefel flames or frozen heart.
Dont forget,that Frozen Heart and Quickness can already be casted by the cheap Initiates of the Deep...thats a thing to consider.
At the very Last,you also have access to some potent Astral Combat magic.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

lol i never said i am an expert rofl http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

mid-lategame with your mentioned tactics + clamhoarding atlantis may be not so bad sure .
but all undeads are cold immune ! so if you don't have lots of priests what i doubt because they are rather expensive ermor can be too hard if it borders the see and decides to wipe you out earlygame .

your other earlygame enemy ryleh is hard too .

finally midgame a attack with a few fully euqipped scs , especially ice devils can give you hard trouble too .
you can't summon banelords in the sea .
your water queens are inferior to ice devils .
getting a foothold on the continent + defending it is extremely hard as atlantis .
summonable scs in the sea are only afaik :
- wraith lords
- water queens
- in theory : the ice devils


most maps just support 1 underwater nation and most ppl chose then ryleh because most think it is a bit better than atlantis .

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

:O kings of elemental earth, eater of the dead, perhaps half the tartarians if you really had no land...

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Coral Queens cost about the same as C'Tis Priest Kings. Consorts are very physically tough and cost the same as battle deacons.

They aren't that hard for Atlantis. Your troops are superior to theirs, and you have access to friendly currents right off the bat. Illithid's are archers, and you have access to flying troops as soon as you conquer your first province.

What? Water queens are completely superior to ice devils, and would give air queens an easy run for their money. It's nothing to sneeze at when you can regenerate 40 or more hitpoints per turn on a unit with inherent water magic and 0 base encumbrance.

That might have been true before the duration of Illithid paralysis was reduced to its current levels. Now, it's not too hard to overwhelm them with sufficient numbers. Try a water 6 Nerid with order 3, prod 3, misfortune 2, magic 3, kelp citadel. Or create yourself a nice meat shield out of the ancient Kraken to absorb Triton attacks.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Early game,nearly all nations do fear Atlantis,because most dont have ability to go into Water yet.
Essential for Underwater nations normally is to get an early foothold on the land and therefore getting rid of the underwater summoning problems.
Unless facing Ermor,which wants to attack you(not that easy in early game for Ermor ,too,since Undeads are very bad in fighting underwater) and a few other exceptions,this shouldnt be a problem.
Also,you have to ask yourself:
Which nation wants to face Ermor early game?
Thats not only a problem of Atlantis.

Btw,in my Last MP game with Atlantis,I did go for a 9W blessing...ever watched how a few quickened Coral Queens and Consorts banish hordes of slow Undeads Underwater??
Me neither,mighty Ermor never dared to touch me up to the end and we did have huge borders early on http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif
Atlantis,with its strong sacred troops,is one of the few nations were I still seriously consider a 9 blessing,when designing the pretender.

R`lyeh isnt too easy( I dont think,that R`lyeh has an advantage against Atlantis though),but R`lyeh has more diffculties in conquering underwater Indie provinces,than indie provinces on land.So ,if R`lyeh concentrates first on land provinces,it may take a while,depending on the map,until both border each other,and even then ,an alliance against all landlubbers is also a possibility.I was able to make an alliance with R`lyeh in both MP-games I played Atlantis http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I think most people choose R´lyeh instead of Atlantis,because its more interesting to play and very unique.
It may be slightly better,too,but you have a lot of trouble if you face someone who is able to deal with the Mind bLasts easily.

Atlantis is a bit boring to play, I discovered that myself.
Thats why I really would like to see a theme there.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

The best ice devil statwise , Bune has 16 att and 20 def .
The water queens have 15 att/def .

Both have watermagic so both can cast water shield and quickness .

The ice devil can easy take either bloodthorn + lucky coin shield or wraith sword .

All in all the final result is that the ice devil has about 5 more def and something like def 25-30 in total while the water queen has about 20-25 def in total and the ice devil has even 1 higher base attack .
So the water queen hits with odds like < 1% while the ice devil has a first hit chance of like 3-5% .

With the bloodthorn/wraithsword he slowly fatigues the water queen which reduces def . So the waterqueen will fatigue out normally sometime and die then .

You can of course take reinvigoration items but the ice devil has already 1 slot advantage : the foot slot .
If you want to take a reinvigoration item with your waterqueen the ice devil has even 2 slots advantage then .

A waterqueen just almost can't hit a correct equipped icedevil while she gets hit occasionally which is enough for the ice devil to win . So the ice devil should win about 990 of 1000 fights against a water queen .

The ice devil though is probably the only Nonpretendersc which beats a waterqueen Sc underwater .

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

So can the water queen. There's no difference in the equipment this way.

If you're going to make your argument solely on theory and statistics, then you should really make sure that you get those statistics correct. A 5 point difference between attack and defense means that the water queen will hit 14% of the time, assuming that you haven't outfitted her for increased attack and defense.

The water queen has a base encumbrance of 0. Life drain should not increase her fatigue at all. If it does, then she'll be able to recover it all back everytime that she does hit the ice devil. After all, her attacks cost her no fatigue.

Which will likely be taken by flying boots, which do nothing underwater. There is no other boot that would be of any particular benefit in this combat.

You might want to not use invalid numbers to support your purely theoretical arguments that go against what you'd actually see in the game.

It won't beat one underwater.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Graeme you neglected that both cast quickness and watershield which both increase defense .

So both have to fight against a 10-15 higher def with their attack Ratings but the ice devil has 5 def more than the waterqueen .

I just posted so vague numbers because i don't remember exactly how many points extradef you get from quickness and from watershield .

I am tired today ( it is 3 a.m. here http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ) but tomorrow i will make a quicktest to get the correct numbers for watershield + quickness def and then i post it with statistics .
If you remember them already plz be so kind and post them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Are you forgetting that Water Queens regenerate 90% of their hps per round? That and the ability to equip a herald lance for triple damage against the demonic ice devil is a huge advantage.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Yes. Of course. It's what happens when someone makes comparisons based on pet theories (and flawed ones at that) instead of one's own practical, actual gameplay experience (or at the very least least, the experiences reported by reliable/knowledgeable players). Graeme (and you, and others) have been pointing this out for a while.

Those that insist that Atlantis is "weak" have either never played the nation, or don't understand how to play it (and thus play it poorly/ineffectively).

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Quickness gives +3 def and Water Shield +5.

Ice Devil suffers -3 to Attack and Defence and it also suffers +3 penalty to Encumbrance when fighting underwater.

Equiped Water Queen beats equally equiped ID without any problems.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Does he really get -3 to Attack + Defence ?
And if that is so can you "cure" it with a waterbreathing item ?

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Don't know if I understod you correctly but I ment skill 20 - underwater penalty 3 = 17. Forgive my not so good English.

Ring of Water Breathing doesn't cure it IIRC.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Your english is good tka http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I was just surprised because i never read from underwater penalty like you mentioned http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
Is there something similiar for aquatic creatures like the water queen when she goes on land with amulet of the fish too ?

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Thanks! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Nope, aquatics don't get any penalties with fish amulet. (Except that lost misc slot.)

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

So you were right (again) graeme but at least it was a good learning experience for me (again) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Why didn't you mention yourself the water penalty though ?


Now i ask the other way round : Which Sc can beat a waterqueen underwater ?
None ?

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Not much should be able to beat her 1 on 1 underwater. That's why she's queen of the water. You just need a collection of units/mages that can do enough damage in one round to kill her or kill her with a single spell.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

I believe there's an outstanding bug (even w/ 2.13) where she does not have her full HPs in regen, while underwater.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

What kind of bug do you mean? I just tested it with one and she regenerates 50 hps per round out of 55 hps.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

I thought that she was supposed to regen 90% of her hit points underwater, not all of them.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

See, this is why some of us don't have much respect for your lectures on how to improve Dominions. You post and post and post, giving us hard numbers (990 out of a 1000, was it?), while you still consider yourself enough of a newbie to enter newbie games.

Try getting some more experience with the game before 'enlightening' us all, hmm?

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

It is not a percent. It is a fixed amount. And only one of the queens regenerates 50 HP per turn. The lesser aquatic queen regenerates 39 while the amphibious queen regenerates 28. Being underwater or not makes no difference.

The description in the troop does say:
"Unless she is completely killed during one combat round, she will heal all wounds."
This is bogus, of course. But don't always believe those descriptions. You have to click on the ability of the troop to see reality.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

...and here you are assuming that all of the unit's abilities are really displayed as icons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'd say I have a feel that the Queens' full reg ability is separate from the regeneration they also have. My experience with the ladies is limited, though (and of patch 2.08 fame), so I may be wrong.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

I ran a test with the 2.12 patch, and the ability did not work for the Queen of the Lake. She was down to 3 hitpoints, and only went back to 31 hitpoints on the next round (her Regeneration was of 28 hitpoints) instead of her full 55 hitpoints.

I see no changes that could apply to the Queen of the Lake with the 2.13 patch, so I guess the results would be the same. But be my guest to test it out with the new patch and/or the other Queens. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

That should be the one who is amphibian not aquatic .
So it is intended that she has weaker regeneration because she is amphibian http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I think it is even mentioned somewhere in her description .

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

"Unless she is completely killed during one combat round, she will heal all her wounds". This is part of the description for Limne, or the two other Queens for this matter. It should be a separate ability from their Regeneration (that is weaker for the Queen of the Lake and the Queen of the Sea, and not yet equal to 100% for the Queen of the Deep).

Since this ability does not work for the Queen of the Lake, I would say it is quite likely the same goes true for the Queen of the Sea. Still, I should check it out one of these days. Testing this ability for the Queen of the Deep would probably be too difficult given her very high natural regeneration.

Re: A question on Atlantis
 

Queen of the Deep definitely only regenerates the 50 hps that it says and not her 55 total. Tested that the other day and one round she only made it back to 53.

If the description is wrong, does that mean the Queen of the Lake still gets regeneration on land?