Ceremonial Faith
 

Question for the devs (or anyone else): Does Ceremonial Faith's +2 preaching level per priest also apply to Calling God?

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

This has already been asked, and I'm nearly certain the answer was "no". Another question on the same topic, though, does Ceremonial Faith only work in friendly territory, as the description implies?
If not, Ceremonial Faith plus large Groups of stealthy Seraphines/Monks might be an excellent combination, especially combined with a flying or teleporting immortal or two.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Pretty sure that Cf only works on friendly turf; Restless Worshippers in the one to use to spread the faith in unfriendly territory.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

The answer given by pole_shift on Feb. 21 in post #255413 was "no", but I've been trying to get a confirmation of that from a dev, or from someone who's tested it recently (as there have been 4 patches since then). Regardless, if the answer is, indeed, no, then it's something the devs ought to change since calling one's god should definitely qualify as a "rightful religious ceremony". Otherwise the description should state that it applies only to preaching and not to prayer (which is a very odd distinction to make IMO, given that prayer is as much or more of a religious ceremony than preaching is).

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

I have no idea, but I suspect that it doesn't affect god calling.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Is god calling a prayer?

Why is the prayer more religious than preaching? This is a matter of definition of the term religion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Personal religion, in wich prayer is indeed more important than preaching, is somewhat of a modern development. Not that it didn't exist before christianity, but it has become more prevalent or important in recent times and in the monotheistic religions. When the state (king) and religion becomes separate there is more room/need for individual religion and prayer. If the state and their gods can't protect me I ask my personal god for deliverance.

During roman times religion was a matter of state. Personal religion and piety was less common (apart from the household worship of lares and penates) before the influence of oriental mystery religions.

In times when religion was the institution that legitimized tradition and the current societal order official ceremonies and sacrifices were much of what religion was about. Preaching in dominions reflects this aspect of state religion (and should probably be called 'hold religious ceremony' or something like it).

Sorry, I got carried away.

Arryn, you are right in that there is no rational explanation of the current distinction between preaching and god calling. We havn't even though about it.

Preaching with ceremonial faith might be a way to influence people with huge and impressive ceremonies that do not have any particular effects on the god.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Yes. "I humbly beseech thy swift return, O mighty Lord! Thy people are in direst need of thee." It would be utter blasphemy to believe that one could summon a deity, as one might summon some common beast.

Definition is irrelevent. Preaching is the swaying of others to one's faith, and/or the instruction of those faithful and heathen into the glories of one's faith. Prayer, OTOH, is (ostensibly) the direct communion with one's deity. Now you tell me which is more holy? Preaching is hawking goods (faith), which is basically salesmanship. It is also education (or more accurately, dogmatic indoctrination, but that leads into a separate discussion which doesn't belong on this forum) of the masses. Prayer is an actual expression and practice of one's faith (as is sacrifice and various sundry other actions).

Having said the above, the calling of one's god, in game terms, is a ritualized ceremony done by one or more priests with the explicit and sole purpose of summoning said deity. It is inconsistent for the game to exclude this particular ritual from receiving the thematic bonus simply because it is focused at one's god and not the god's followers or enemies. It's also illogical from the standpoint that if the god is empowering his/her/its followers with enhanced priestly ability so as to better spread the faith, you'd think said god might want his/her/its followers to be able to bring him/her/it back from the dead ASAP so that said faith won't falter.

You are SO wrong about this. You have it backwards. Preaching is a "modern" development. Modern in the sense of having arisen with civilization and writing. Pagan religions dating back to prehistoric times, including one of the oldest, Wicca (which remains somewhat popular even today), are much more focused on prayer and ritual and far less on evangelization and dogmatic instruction. Preaching is a tool that was developed to control commonfolk and bend them to the will of their rulers, who in ancient and medieval times were religious figures (or in certain countries even today).

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Then again, as Neitzsche said, "God is Dead", and dead gods arguably shouldn't be able to impart any enhanced priestly power upon their followers while dead, because, well, dead gods aren't very much fun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I'm sure the deity _wants_ to be called back from the dead, but well, she's dead. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Caine,

By that logic, the priests shouldn't be able to bring her back at all, for their power, derived from the god itself, would vanish upon the deity's demise. OTOH, if mortals (priests in this case) create their deity through their own power, then they can certainly invest themselves with extra power too. It either works one way, or the other. If the system is logically self-consistent.

Of course, I'm a firm believer in that there's no such thing as logical self-consistency with regards to the subject of religion, but that's a taboo subject here (and my thoughts on religion and politics are by now fairly well known to folks here). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Hah, but you forget you're not really playing a deity in Dominions - only a creature powerful enough to pretend to be one, and to inspire faith great enough onto its followers to achieve miracles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

And you could as well add, "the smiting of one's god's enemies (Banishment, Smite, Holy Avenger), is one or more priests calling the god's power thru prayer with the explicit and sole purpose of defeating said deity's enemies". Same with Sermon of Courage and Fanaticism - after all, these two and preaching have the same objective: strenghtening the god's followers' faith to inspire courage (soldiers) or piety (commoners), which both help the god's cause (to be the sole reigning deity).

I don't think it is inconsistent.

I see it like this: Ceremonial Faith is a clergy thing, and I have no problem with a better organized clergy preaching the masses more efficiently without that ability being linked to the god's very essence. Ceremonial Faith is defined as a 'Special Dominions' section for convenience and this may be misleading, maybe if there was a separate Category for it in the nation design menu (eg, 'Nation Properties', ie things not depending on to the god), you would not have a problem with it. To me the preaching bonus of CF is more akin to the research bonus Sages get, except Sages are available to everyone, while your clergy is only available to you.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

So what you're saying is that the ceremonial ritual for god-calling is (fundamentally) no different than that of a spell ritual (which also isn't granted a bonus in CF)?

Then I submit that the description should not refer to the bonus as applying to a "religious ceremony", since ceremonies are traditionally prayers (which in this game's terms means spells, not preaching). I suppose that the devs intended to mean that in CF preaching is ceremonialized (and thus very ritualized), but that blurs the line between what is preaching and what is a magic invocation (ritual) and the language one uses to describe such should be chosen more carefully to make this very clear. (Or, at least, explicitly state that god-calling isn't included in CF's effect.)

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Actually the knowledge on prehistoric religion is very scarce as there is nothing written about it. That is why it is called prehistoric. Only archaeological evidence or in rare cases written sources from other civilizations (often romans) can give us any clues about it.

Wicca is a modern religion (although some adherents would disagree). 1954 Gardner wrote witchcraft today, a book that described a cult that later developed into the Wicca of today. Wicca, like most new age movements claim to be successors of ancient traditions, but those ancient traditions are very little known due to the fact that nothing is written about them.

If you are not religious: It is not preaching that is a tool to control people, it is religion as a whole. A belief system that legitimizes the current state of society, life, death and everything that happens in the world. Personal expressions of faith are not important if you define religion in this way.

The further back in history you go the more prominent religion becomes in legitimizing the rulers.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Well, technically it sure is different - using religious faith instead of magical energies, using a different command - call god instead of cast ritual spell. Although it's true I consider god-calling as a form of summoning that's available to priests of one's religion. I guess a commoner in Dominions - especially an atheist http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif - wouldn't notice a great difference if an Arch Theurg calls the local pretender back, or summons an Elemental Queen of Air instead.

Anyway I'm not saying "it works like this", rather "this is how I understand it". I gave my own interpretation of CF just like you gave yours, I don't pretend it's the Ultimate Truth. If CF indeed had an effect on god-calling (which I wouldn't mind BTW), I'd envision things entirely differently - with priests leading public ceremonies with thousands of attendants and relying mainly on the commoners' piety to call the deity back, rather than relying on their own religious knowledge (using specific prayers) in magic ritual-like ceremonies.

The blurb texts never use technical terms. And while it may be misleading sometimes, I like it this way - I think it gives a cool touch to the game.

It could be worse. What if the had called CF Ritual Faith instead? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

This is a fascinating conversation. However, I'd like to propose an idea in regards to the Pretenders and what they actually are in a way that fits in with the milleau.

The pretenders are demi-gods. Corporeal, not quite ready (or aware of) becoming the non-corporeal Primary deity. That being said, when their body is slain, all pretenders are in a sense immortal. Waiting just on the other side of the "veil" to be called back and reconstituted. One could almost call their physical body an Avatar. But they still are a single consciousness and "used to" inhabiting a physical body hence the desire to actually be present in a capitol province, lead troops, etc.

I would propose higher levels of Pretender status as they get closer to total ascension but that is a subject for Dom3.

Anyways back to the point. Because the pretender is not actually dead, merely discorporated, the priestly function of call god, and all other priestly abilities remain at full power. The consciousness and link with all his worshippers and priests remains as long as the pretender does not suffer "final death" ie- all dominion is extinguished. This can be so traumatic that the loss can cause a corporeal pretender to disintigrate immediately. The effect would be permanent. Restoring worship some years down the line would do no good because the pretender is not waiting on the other side to be called back. He is permanently dissolved.

So we need an unbroken span of dominion from the start of attaining demigod status and on through the pretenders total existence. Even once ascended, the deity will continue to require worship.

I see how easy it is to digress!

I believe the "Call God" ceremony is a priestly function, and that priests continue to receive power from their god until all dominion is extinguished. Being corporial or "dead" has no bearing on it.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

In specific cases, it should also involve engineers and workers. How long does it take to build a Sphinx? Hmmm, maybe Arcane Masonry could speed things up? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

*Off topic alert* Kristoffer, if you do not mind my asking, what exactly would be the religious part of your work as a teacher? While I have had a bit of sociology in the past, anything getting close to religious is seldom taught in French schools, and so I was a bit curious about what would be a course about religion (or comparative religion as you wrote in your hobbies).

Sorry for bringing up this topic here, but your discussion about religion a few Posts before gave me the opportunity to do so, and it seems like as good as thread for this question as any. */Off topic alert*

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

In Sweden 'knowledge of religions' is obligatory in school. Kids of 10 will get some kind of introduction on christianity. At 12 they will get introduced to other religions. From 13-15 there are more depth to the studies of religion. Between 16-19 (some are older) you have one obligatory course in religion and can choose to take another depending on your choice of education program. This one gives more focus on ethics and (hopefully) deepens the understanding of what religion does to the individual and society, both from a christian perspective and a perspective of other moral views, religious or nonreligious.

Higher studies of religion include theology, ethics, comparative religion/history of religions, sociology of religion, psychology of religion, exegetics, bible studies etc. You have the opportunity to specialize once you have taken one basic year. I went for history of religion/comparative religion and some additional islamology.

I work with kids of 16-19. Most of these kids are not too interested in religion when they first show up. They also have lots of prejudices against religion, particulary christianity and islam. Almost all of them have a strong dislike of the concept of God. On the other hand they have a very strong opinion on how God should be. He's unfair and evil and thus he can't exist, but he should be good and fair and powerful and worthy of their love. In essence they want a God, but they can't find one that is good enough for them http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Comparative religion is an old term. It is now called religious studies or history of religions, but the old term is still frequently used. I think I prefer 'history of religions', especially if I would describe my personal interests. It is the study of other religions. What does the cultic practices of death look like in buddhism? What does it look like in islam or shinto? How did myths affect society in ancient greece. Are myths less prominent today? Do we need myths? What does rituals do for the individual and society? Who were the gods of Sumer? What did the sumerian cult look like and how did the cult change in babylonian times?

It is most interesting! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

I usually prefer not to speak when I've very little to say, but let me just state that I share your interest. Not that "interest" does it justice.

I adore history and sociology/anthropology, particularly that of religion, in a way which verges on the sexual.

And that's all I have to say about that.

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Thanks for the answer! I can understand why it would be interesting, or even helpful, as a course of study in school. I am not too sure about why religions are a "no-no" in our own schools, even if only as an introduction (laicity didn't mean "to put a ban on a subject" Last time I checked). But I am digressing.

Well, I trust you explain to them why you cannot have a perfect deity; it all depends on your number of design points. A powerful god strong in magic and with potent magic is more likely to be Ermorian after all, and as such might not qualify as being a "good and fair" god, unless you fancy being an undead of some sort. Thus design points can be said to be the explanation for this behaviour. *Ducks for cover*

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

Heh, there's nothing fairer than death, the 'Great Equalizer'. Ermor should be described as the perfect communist society. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Ceremonial Faith
 

How would you explain the differences between all soulesses then? Your standard Souless has definitively not the same standard of (un)living as a Jotun Souless; consequently, even death cannot truly negate all differences between people... erh, between what used to be people.

Because of this, I call all soulesses to revolt against the tyranny of undead favoritism! Let the longdeads join us in our struggle for equality after death! Together we shall overthrow the dictactorship of these immortals Lichs that exploit the undead commoners!