Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Routing has become totally insane, it seems to me. On the one hand - sometimes a commander will continue fighting long past when the Last troops are killed.

For instance : Arcos PD's commander, after his two troops are killed. Or - a Tuatha prophet, non-berserk, also sticking around not only after all other troops have been killed, but also after the only other commanders are killed as well.

Then though - a 19 morale Bane Lord, fully tricked out with 38 Protection, armed with a twin spear, going up against PD. The Twin spear kills an opponent, which comes back as undead, which is slain which ... sends the completely unwounded, regenerating Bane Lord packing.

Note that this tends to confirm that a spell casting solo SC is quite likely to route after it's scripted spells run out - when that first phantasmal warrior is killed, off like a flash.

Now, maybe there's some internally consistent logic going on with routing. If so, it'd be very nice to hear from the developers, because the way routing is working (since 2.12) is simply not the way it's been (unofficially) documented, and it certainly doesn't seem consistent or logical.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I second this, I've seen totally (seemingly) contradictory results as far as routing.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I've noticed nothing different with the way routing works.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Neither have I, but that doesn't mean that there isn't a bug. Those that have been reporting the problem, and there are several, aren't noted for crying "wolf" or for being clueless, hence we should give their reports some credence. It should be investigated in detail (assuming that IW doesn't already have some saved games in their possession courtesy some kind and conscientious player).

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Just who assigned you to pass judgement on those who post to this board, Arryn? You've been flinging about words like whining, clueless, and crying wolf with great abandon, and your own contribution from your perch on your self-delusional Olympus has amounted to suggesting spells which "[you] haven't actually used [your]self".

Here you thought it necessary to contribute nothing at all, save giving yourself yet another chance to malign people by implication. "It's gotten very old and tiresome. Give it a rest. Please." - recognize those?

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

And just how much did you contribute here, Truper? A much greater negative quotient than Arryn did, it seems to me, which is pretty hypocritical for someone who continually bemoans how the quality of threads has gone downhill.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Unit/commander morale should probably ignore stuff like PD and battle-summons. I agree its ridiculous that a hero should route because a skeleton he summoned got killed.

As for commanders sticking around after their armies have routed away, well I have seen it a few times but its been suggested to me they were berserk... and to be honest I had never really checked that. So I will keep my eye open for strange behaviours like that.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

One post makes for continually Caine? Seems you're rather quantity-challenged then. At least you're no hypocrite - your own Posts make your sig the most appropriate on the Boards: the great majority of them leave us all with that bitter, bitter taste.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I've also seen this way too often where I found a good workaround.
I grab slow and thick units then place one for each back corner with settings of hold and attack. Units like living statues work great.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Especially with crippled units, that's a decent workaround for ensuring that commanders don't route too quickly, albeit flyers, wrathful skies, etc, all too often wipe the rear echelon stragglers out.

But it doesn't help with the larger (imo) problem, which is commanders staying around after they should have routed. And, Soapyfrog - I've checked very closely to make sure there wasn't berserk or anything. Non-berserk Tuatha with no nature blessing, Arcos PD commanders, etc - definately no berserking involved there.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I have come across strange incidents where commanders sometimes stay and fight. I have noticed this only when all soldiers are killed in the first round of battle or something soimilar. It was long since Last time and I'm not sure what happened. IIRC it was a PD battle.

Commanders rout when all troops are lost. If you summon one skeleton (twin spear is working now) and the skeleton is killed you have lost all your soldiers and you will therefore retreat.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Here's a dumb question:

Do all the rallying and morale boosters also work on commanders? The Standard, Horn of Valor, Special abilities and all that...

This whole problem also sounds a lot similar to the Moloch/imp issue.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

The twin spear one I could understand, at least according to game mechanics.

But the commanders are staying around when the troops were killed long after the first round of combat : the 4th round or later, and not just with PD. Air Queens, Tuatha, PD commanders, etc, none of which were berserk. Would turn files showing this be helpful in debugging and tracking it down, or do you need files from the host server as well?

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

But surely this isn't desirable? Shouldn't an exception be made for battle summons?

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Especially given that otherwise, a group of commanders with no troops can attack, and on turn 5 (or sooner, with haste/quicken) a phantasmal warrior or skeleton is summoned, gets killed, and routs.

Except of course, that the commanders currently might not rout until they're all dead, which is arguably worse.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

We've had the discussion about early routing before.,

Poll: morale and routing

Why have it again? More than half voted for no change at that time.

I, for one, like the current routing rules, except for one small thing already mentioned in the other thread.

Commanders not routing sounds like a bug, I agree. I havn't experienced this myself, so I have no opion in this matter.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I dislike the commanders always route when all units have been killed rule.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

It isn't so much that we hate a particular rule than that we wish that there would be a particular fixed rule that we can confidently know applies consistently.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

The devs have posted their defense/justification for this so if you hold out any hopes of it changing, expect to be disappointed. Personally, FWIW, I dislike it too. But Dominions is predominantly a game about armies, not heroes (despite the HoF), and the (rout) mechanics reflect this.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I'm not suggesting a discussion about the routing - my bane lord routing was as I might have predicted based on the current game mechanics. ( I do think it's flawed that I might have a mighty spellcaster wearing the shoes that teleport him around the battle, casting mighty spells, but routing as the 6th spell is randomly phantasmal soldier. )

But right now, there are battles that should have been won that aren't, because the routing rules weren't applied, and commanders lost for the same reason. Sometimes the nation whose commanders don't rout when they should have wins, because an SC keeps rampaging when it shouldn't. Sometimes the nation loses the commanders, which it should have been able to count on retreating when all the troops were lost.

I don't think it's supposed to be, "Sometimes non-berserk commanders will rout when all troops are killed or retreat, and sometimes they won't."

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Are these cases where one side does not rout when it should possibly due to the fact that the other army has already routed? I believe that until the auto-rout starts when turns are in their 50's, only one side can have routed.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

> Are these cases where one side does not rout when it should possibly due to
> the fact that the other army has already routed? I believe that until the
> auto-rout starts when turns are in their 50's, only one side can have routed.

I am afraid this is not always the case. I have had my Caelum troops rout the
enemy, charge into them, suffer casulaties, rout and leave the battlefield
before the enemy, thus snatching defeat from the jaws of victory...

On the other hand, I have an actual strategy, again with Caelum, which relies
on leaving my troops to win the battle without commanders. I have not used it
in 2.14, though, as I grew bored with Caelum.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

no the situations i've seen are ones where one would clearly expect a rout (all allied forces dead) but there isn't one. eventually the other army is killed, but it certainly has not previously routed.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Cainehill is correct about commanders. (gulp! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif ) Just few turns ago in my Throne of Heavens game I've seen all none PD troops (and all but one commanders) killed by turn 20 or so one by one, but nevertheless my Last commander stayed and fight to the end. On the other hand I've also seen what KristofferO have described - commanders stay and fight after all PD including commanders were killed in 2nd round of combat (Ghost Riders)

Question to KristofferO: Are there any special rules regarding routing during Castle Defense?

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I agree with Mose. The currrent system is fine with me, as soon as this bug (or two bugs) with commanders not routing are fixed. I have been using the routing mechanism as a defense agaisnt Ghost riders attacks, but it is hard to do if it sometimes work and sometimes not. ;( Same goes for any battle. If you dont' know when your troops would route and when they would not, it is hard to plan it.


I also think it would be better if Death twin spear would work similar to Lifelong protection in regards to routing - meaning its summons would not cause the routing of its owner. Otherwise there is not much point in this unique artifacts, and it would be suicidal to give it to any SC commander, except when accompanied by strong army. But this is very minor thing obviously.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Just posting a third sighting, in case there's any doubt this bug exists. I've been fighting Caelum on Try_Something_New, and it seems they've taken to capturing my depopulated, unguarded provinces in raids, setting PD to 2(Or 1, or whichever gives one commander anbd one soldier), and promptly abandoning the conquered territories.
I sometimes respond by moving in a small band of troops(AE longdeads, soulless, etc.), and every single time I have done so thus far, without exception, both before and after the 2.13->2.14 client- and server- side switch, the Caelian infantryman has died in the first round of combat, but the seraphine PD commander remained on the field until killed.

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Yeah, seraphines are alwyas anxious to die in battle...its probably a religious issue... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

Actually, this is not true. I have seen battles where both sides routed pretty early on (one side had all of its commanders killed and the other suffered morale failure), and the one whose units were slowest to retreat (limp, cripple, less action points or whatever other reason) won the battle and kept the province. It's unusual, but it can and does happen.

Edi

Re: Stop the (routing) Madness!
 

I sent a .trn file that I think shows the the sort of thing Cainehill was talking about in his first post. Of course, the battle did happen in the Mountains of Madness, so maybe it is a feature http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif.