how do damage multipliers work?
 

I was just in the IRC channel and we were talking about weapons with damage multiples against some types of opponents.

The question came up: how does the multiple apply?

1) only to the base damage. Thus a Hearld Lance becomes a damage 18 weapon,
2) to both the base damage and the strength,
3) to the base damage and the die roll,
4) to the base damage, the strength, and the die roll

I think #1 makes sense. But people have seen mini-SC's with weapons like this tear through stuff like nuts so they figure it is more than the base damage.

Any ideas?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I thought it was just the base damage. If you're talking about those flambeaus in that one game (heh), 13 armor-piercing x 3 =39+19 str = 58 armor piercing damage x boots of quickness = dead demons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Well I was not thinking about the flambeaus from that game in particular, but they were scary!

Actually we were just discussing Herald Lances. I thought that they were swell for the spell, but not so super in melee ( but not shabby by any extent ) against undead.

However people think that they have seen people equipped with Herald Lances rip undead up. However unless ( 4 ) is correct I don't think that they would be *that* effective.

Flambeaus OTOH no matter how the math works out rip stuff up that's for sure.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

If herald lances do more than 18 damage, wow, they'd really be a good item. Very underused, if that's true. At least underused by me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

There are other possibilities for how it might work. For instance, it could be that only the amount that gets past protection and immunity is multiplied.

PvK

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Er, what irc channel?

Peter

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

The sticky thread about IRC channels gives you the addresses of the two IRC channels (well, assuming both are still up and running). Direct link for this thread is here .

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Thanks
I knew it would be an easy answer http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif
Silly me http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Peter

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

#2 it is. Strength and dmg, but not the die roll. Midgetmasher, shortsword and holy weapons are all affected, as are heavenly horn and the spell holy pyre.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Thank you sir! That makes these weapons far more powerful and this is why people think that Hearld Lances are great weapons. It all makes sense now. Thanks.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Wow! I'm gonna git me some herald lances, yee-ha!

So, those flambeaus were 13 damage + 19 strength = 32 x 3 = 96 armor piercing damage. OMFG. So your super-mega demon SC has a 50 protection and 200 hit points? Dead in 3 hits. Muhuhahahahahaahah!!!!!

A herald lance would be 6 + 19 = 25 x 3 = 75 damage. Nice! Especially for a 1-handed weapon, that's superb.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Well I knew that those Flambeuas would crush all of my SC's so I only engaged those banes of death with troops. It was quite painful for me to have to rely upon troops, but what are you going to do? Lucikly I had those crazy soul contracts to pump crap out like crazy!

You had better beleive it. Now I just have to find some nice low level kind of summons to put it on ( bane lords would be perfect ... aw hell I'll just use bane lords what the heck am I thinking about ! ).

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Seems to me that the obvious thing to do is to test how well a fully equipped bane lord with either a flambeau or a herald lance + shield would do against a fully equipped ice devil. Pity I'm at work at the moment.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Eh, give a Flambeau to a Niefel Jarl in-dominion prophet with Heroic Strength, and see how it fares against an Unfettered Eater o' the Dead after it's eaten a few thousand corpses (Black Death, Black Death, Volcano, Black Death...). *WHAM*

I once had a heroic Jotun Herse with STR at least 100, IIRC. That would really, really hurt.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Since no one took me up on my suggestion, I performed the tests myself.

I used Gandalf's minimap for testing and basically altered the map to let one player start with a banelord and the other to start with an ice devil (I picked Mr. Cimejes since Boron recently used him to wipe out my whole army single-handedly). I had the two SCs move simultaneously into the neutral ground between the two capitals.

I ran three sets of ten battles each. The bane lord always had this: herald lance, lucky coin, jade armor, starshine skullcap, winged shoes, burning pearl, antimagic amulet.

For the first two sets, I gave the ice devil this: blood thorn, lucky coin, starshine skullcap, copper plate, winged shoes, burning pearl, antimagic amulet.

The bane lord was always given orders to be placed as far back as possible and attack rearmost immediately.

For the first set of 10 battles, the ice devil was given orders to be placed as far back as possible, cast quickness, breath of winter and attack rearmost. I did this to simulate an ice devil being "surprised" by a bane lord.

Out of 10 battles, the Bane Lord killed the ice devil in the first turn in 6 battles. In the other 4 battles, he took two turns to kill the ice devil.

For the next set of 10 battles, I had the ice devil cast quickness, then attack rearmost. In 6 battles, the Bane Lord killed the ice devil in the first turn, in 3 battles he took 2 turns to kill the ice devil and in one battle, he took 3 turns to kill the ice devil.

For the Last set of 10 battles, I gave the ice devil a jade armor in place of the copper plate and had him attack rearmost immediately.

The results were:

1) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (14 hp left)
2) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (30 hp left)
3) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (14 hp left)
4) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (41 hp left)
5) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (41 hp left)
6) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (37 hp left)
7) Ice Devil kills Bane Lord (35 hp left)
8) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (34 hp left)
9) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (30 hp left)
10) Bane Lord kills Ice Devil (18 hp left)

So the Bane Lord wins 9 battles and the Ice Devil wins 1.

However, I encountered an anomaly. Although both were equipped with winged shoes, it was always the Bane Lord who flew over to whack the Ice Devil. I never once saw the Ice Devil fly over to whack the Bane Lord.

Thinking that perhaps certain nations always move first before some other nations, I did some tests. In a Tien Chi vs Vanheim match-up, I managed to get a game where Tien Chi got the bane lord and Vanheim got the ice devil, as well as a game with the reverse. I found that regardless of who got what, it was always the bane lord who flew over to whack the ice devil.

I have no idea why this is so. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I'm curious: try a set with both the BL and ID having exactly the same equipment, including weapons. I'll leave the choice of weapon up to you.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I ran some more tests:

With wraith Swords each, the ID beat the BL very decisively every time.

With the original equipment configuration of herald lance vs. blood thorn, I moved the ID into the neutral province first, then moved the BL. I did this to force the ID to be the defender always, which worked in getting it to fly over to whack the BL instead of the other way around. The BL won 7 out of 10 battles.

I then tested with a flambeau instead of a herald lance / lucky coin combination. I found that in 7 out of 10 battles the flambeau equipped BL killed the ID in the first successful hit. The BL won all battles, but in two battles the BL was reduced to a handful of HPs. This was mostly because it kept missing the ID while the ID continued to whack it. I should really have restored the luck effect to the BL by replacing the antimagic amulet with a pendant of luck. Then, the BL would have won much more handily.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Thank you, Deccan. Your tests are a superb supplement to Cherry's combat sim, and more illuminating.

It's very much as I thought. The choice of equipment is key, and I wanted to make sure that readers of this thread got the correct impression, as your original post about the tests might imply to newbies that the BL is superior to the ID (which as you just demonsrated, is arguable).

IMO, the BL is too cheap & easy to cast for what you get, especially compared to the ID or other comparable summons. But that's a discussion for a different thread.

BTW, I don't suppose I could trouble you to try a set using a Wraith Lord vs. the ID? The WL is a "comparable" summons (it's still cheaper than the ID, but at least its in the same ballpark). I expect the results will be similar to that of the BL, but I could be wrong.

Thanks again for all the work you're putting in.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

And perhaps more importantly, the BL is not unique so you can mass them.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Nice tests deccan. After IW confirmed that indeed it was #2 I figured that the herald lances would be amazingly effective. And indeed they are.

Good. If it is easy to kill SC's then good I say.

Now how the hell to kill those AQ's that's the question.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

The wraithlord is more expensive than the ID, because 40 death gems is worth something around 80-100 blood slaves depending on the nation.

The wraithlord is more skilled, but has fewer hitpoints, so I'm not certain which way it will go.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I'll do the Wraith Lord tests later today.

Question: The ID is a size 4 creature. If someone arranges an army of national troops (smaller than size 4) to accompany one or more IDs, if I set my demon assasination BLs to attack biggest, would it be able to ignore the chaff and go straight for the ID?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Attack largest will ignore all of the smaller troops, and go straight for the biggest ones on the battlefield. Attack fliers works in the same manner.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Okay, Wraith Lord test results in (having a lazy Sunday afternoon here...)

Basically I'd say the WL is much, much better. I did 10 battles with a Herald Lance + Lucky Coin WL. The ID was always defending and so got first hit. The WL won all battles.

The lower hit points made no difference at all I think. In 8 battles, the WL's HP never dropped below 30. In 1, his HPs dropped to 13, in the other , to 20+. However, the reduced strength of the WL compared to the BL was very noticeable. The WL needed to hit the ID noticeably more times to kill it. However, the ID had a hard time hitting the WL, so it was okay.

That was a one on one battle however. I suspect that in a big battle with lots of troops, missile support and multiple SCs, having more hit points would be better.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I'm doing it for purely selfish reasons. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I'm in a couple of MP games in which having a reliable way of killing ice devils would be very useful...

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

And I'm asking because I have a tendency to mass-produce BLs (they are, IMO, the most cost-efficient means to wipe out enemies). Oops, did I just admit that? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Thanks again.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Killing SC's is easy when they're alone. Somebody sneezes and they die. But when they bring a huge army and hide behind, that's another story. Though big SC's are still vulnerable to spells and "attack large monsters" squads. For <6 SC's life is easier as they can bring something large (Niefel Giants, Mammonths, Elephants etc) to draw enemies fire.

What about AQ? If they come alone, bunch of el-cheapo lifeless summons (undead, clockwork horrors, etc) work just fine.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

How about a firbolg vs Ice Devil matchup? Firbolg has similar stats to a Bane Lord (1 more attack and defense, 3 less strength), but 16 less hps (42 vs 26). But on the other hand, he's not vulnerable to triple herald lance damage.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Yeah, but the firbolg has terrible encumberance. Without a drain life weapon to restore his fatigue, and with a drain life weapon hitting him, he just won't Last very long. It seems like a choice only when you don't have access to death.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Got to agree with that. And the HP is going to be quite a large issue.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Yeah that's the question . And the airqueen has normally the stormbonus so she can decide when to attack .
A waterqueen is very impressive then probably too .
If you have a nataraja you can give him a lifedrain weapon , a flamebeau and a shield hm .

Wonder whats more efficient lategame : Wishing for Natarajas or for Airqueens or for Doom horrors ?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Life draining weapons are what you want here, since they cause her fatigue even when you only hit a mirror image.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

If your wishing multiple times, wish for Armageddon and then population.

It won't make you popular but at least it's something reasonable to do with Wishes.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

The mirror images have still the same defense as the airqueen ?
Cause the queen of storms has 17 base att/def and gets +5 during storm so i think this way you have with good equipment always a +3-10 bonus in defence depending which SC you face . Then the getting hit by lifedrain weapons probablity should be greatly reduced and if i use lifedrain on my own i think the fatigue should stay at <20 for most time .

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

How does wish for population work ? I haven't tried it out yet but afaik you get only a bit population in 1 province .

So either you are just kidding or you get hordes of population in your whole empire with wishing for population like 1000xdominionstrength in all your provinces because it was improved in 2.14 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Population is moved from enemy provinces into yours.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Cool . Is it a constant or a percentage ? And how many provinces are affected ?
Is it like
A : move from Y provinces XXXX ( constant ) population to Z provinces you own
B : Move from Y provinces X % of the popluation to Z provinces you own

Is Y constant or does it depend on world size ?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I'd like to test this. What would be an ideal equipment loadout for an AQ?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

That depends on what elements you want to give her immunity to. Going for pure physical power though, it might be something like:
Jade Armour
Starshine Skullcap
AMA
Regen Ring
Blood Thorn
Lucky Coin

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Nice http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

The loadout is difficult because you should use 2 imo , 1 as SC , 1 as supporter for storm + wrathful skies .
Especially storm is important because the airqueens get then a huge bonus to attack/def/str , 3-5 depending on the airqueen .
As SC airqueen you should use Aella , queen of storms because she has 17 base att/def and should get +5 during storm .

script : mistform + mirror image .
"cheap" equipments without unique items , general SC :
equip 1 : Hellsword , burning pearl , jade armor , pendant of luck , starshine skullcap .
negative : a bit low MR

Equip 2 : Blood thorn , lucky coin , jade armor , amulet of antimagic , starshine skullcap , 100% FR ring
negative : -4 attack without burning pearl

Equip 3 : Anti Sc
Flamebeau , pendant of luck , jade armor , burning pearl , starshine skullcap

Unique equipment :
The summit , the aegis , jade armor , starshine skullcap , heart of life , luck pendant .

problem is MR + Fire protection http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

The lack of the feetslot is in some ways not so nice too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif


Others feel free to make suggestions too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Hum. My AQ's usually get equipped with:

Jade Armor, Blood Thorn (Herald Lance), Lucky Amulet, Starshine Skullcap, Ring of Regen, Ring of Frost

OR

Jade Armor, Hell Sword, Fire Helmet, AMA, Ring of Frost

If it is in some sort of SC capacity this is usually a good plan unless you are planning on not fighting anyone who can utilize mages.

I never equip my Air Queens with a Staff of Storms because the Storm is persistant even if you leave, so I tend to have a Scout hold the Staff then retreat first round.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

If you want you could take as opponents doom horrors too .
Would love to know if a good equipped airqueen is in serious danger against a doom horror http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And i think a good tartarian as opponent would also be very nice since they are tough and some have really good paths which give them some nice extra buffs http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Heh. Jade Armor + Rod of the Phoenix, you can even put that on a scout http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Or perhaps Boots of Quickness. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Why rod of the phoenix ?

Standard of the damned can't be resisted and it has the same cost : 20 fire vs 20 deathgems .

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Death Gems are more valuable than Fire? And if someone is going to tool around with a Doom Horror having 5 or 6 such scouts, (with either/or BOTH) will fill in the weakness gaps.

But all you need is either one and Doom Horror = Kaput.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

It depends on the nation you are playing . If you lack F3 forgers for the rods or vice versa .

And there is a lot with 100% FR so the Standard should work better overall .
I like atm the idea to use banelords for this for offense and demilichs for defense in positive dominion http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
Unfortunately my faerungame where i wanted to try this out got a strange error now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

So i ask you now http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
What is your favourite lategame army composition ?
Which types of SCs , Mages and Troops do you prefer ?

Troops e.g. get killed very quick by either lighning or fire lategame . But you need troops to prevent your mages from routing or to use more than 1-2 SCs reliable .
I have thought a lot about different combos but so far haven't found a real favourite for me .
Do you have one ? Can you briefly explain why ?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

I was messing around with Black Forest Ulm and I discovered that Vampire Counts are so good because they are all immortal. Because of the "immortal commanders do not rout in friendly dominion" rule, I could make an army of mini-SCs out of them that won't rout when the first one dies.

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Heh, that's kind of carrying things a bit too far. As you can see from the types of tests I run, I'm mostly interested in finding relatively cheap and reliable counters to some of the most commonly encountered SCs. I'll leave the late-game mega-SC stuff to when I can actually survive to lategame. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Aren't we just talking about a 1 on 1 matchup? Of course the encumbrance will matter, but will it be enough to stop him when he can kill the Ice Devil in one or two hits?

Re: how do damage multipliers work?
 

Okay, okay, I'll add this to my to-do list and get back to you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I should add however that a bane lord at least can be set to try to target the ice devil specifically in a big battle and have a reasonable chance of surviving afterwards, whereas the encumberance and lower hit points of the firbolg makes it seem like a one-use weapon. Of course, one might well have no better use of nature gems, so this could be an option.