What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Discussions about modding and enabling new modding commands takes up considerable space in this forum, but I fail to see what it is good for, so I would appreciate some deeper insights in the topic.

My prejudice is: Modding is nice for SP, because people can adjust the game to their likings, but its effectively useless in MP, because
at least for me, an MP game takes about three months to complete and I cant afford to play more than 2-3 games simultaneously; therefore if I decide to play, I want to know in advance that it will be a good & fair game.

So using an unknown mod turns the game into an experiment which I am usually unwilling to take in MP, which is the only form I play Dom2 now. Even if I decide otherwise, how can I convince my fellow players to accept a mod as balanced? Usually time is a scarce resource for most of my fellow players as well.

So there are guidelines for Modders, but I am missing some guidelines for Mod-Users!?! What does the majority of player here think about a particular mod? Is a particular mod still technically compatible?

Or a more concrete example: A friend of mine is interested in using the Orc mod in our follow-up MP. I cannot judge whether this is balanced, and neither one of us is wlling to invest the time to judge this. Furthermore there is written that it requires 2.08. Is it automatically compatible with 2.14?

So are Modders just out there themselves for their own fun of just modding instead of playing? Or is Mod-using only something for true maniacs who played the standard game already a thousand times and got bored? Or is Mod-using only for SP players? Or is Mod-using only for the brave, unlike me?

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

It depends on your taste, I would say. Some people like certain mods because they alter the thematics of some specific nation more to their liking, or add something to the game that was not there previously. Some mods seek to address certain balance issues, but these should be approached with extreme caution. Often it is a question of the modmaker not knowing what to do when faced with something, so he or she thought it was "unbalanced".

I'd be willing to play MP with some mods (haven't tried many, but I've seen enough positive feedback for some mods). One very good mod is Zen's recent Concept Balance mod, because it only affects pretenders, not the nations, and it makes more pretenders attractive for MP purposes (and in SP).

Thing is, if you've played Dominions extensively and know the ins and outs of different strategies for different nations, odds are you will be able to tell what effect a particular mod will have on a game, or at least make a relatively accurate educated guesstimate.

You should take some time to look at the mod specifics before using a mod in a game, and perhaps experiment a little with some short SP games that you can abandon, as and if your time constraints allow.

In MP it also depends on what kind of game you're playing. With some friends, I could very well play co-ops on a large map with victory by provinces and using quick turns, to test out things. Or in sandbox play. But for competitive take no prisoners games, mods are not necessarily good unless everyone agrees to them in advance and knows what they are committing to.

Edi

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

The biggest problem of most mods is that they add nations, leading to possible major imbalances. I see no problem with using Zen's mod which currently changes Pretenders however; all players will benefit from this change, and not a single player.

In the case of mods adding new nations, the best way seems to require all players to play a modded nation, rather than mix standard nations and mods. There has been one such game on Mosehansen in the past, but you would have to ask the opinions of the players about how well it turned out. The purpose of such a game would not be perfect balance however, much like in the same way as some themes are weaker than others in the regular game (which isn't a bad thing if you ask me, but I digress).

If the mod you mention requires the 2.08 Version, it is comptabible with all Versions starting from the 2.08 patch. Requiring a specific Version is needed for mods using special commands, introduced by later patches (such as the shape change commands of the 2.13 Version). The only exception would perhaps be a mod altering one of the units modified by a further patch; for example, a 2.08 mod about the Dryad Hoplites (Pangaea New Era) would not have the Round Shields that have been given to the Dryad Hoplites in the 2.13 patch.

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

About modded nations : you can play them for fun, who cares if it's imbalalanced as long as it's fun ? Anyway MP games diplomacy often goes against the more powerful nations ...
And note that "vanilla" nations are clearly not that balanced - make a poll of who will take Ulm or Mictlan vs Caelum or Vanheim lol !
Alternative methods for "balancing" is either to "bid" for nations (a referree has to manage how the bidding is resolved through either map editing or playing a neutral nation), or to make some "conflict managing" rule about nation choice - for example everyone lists their 3 preferred nations and only get the 1st one if they are no other player choosing it first, etc..

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

The problem is that neither do I have the time (I can hardly play the three games I am currently in, since it takes more than 1h to complete a turn for me!) nor the experience to judge a mod, which is essentially why I am asking here. There should be enough experienced mod-Users around to share their opinion about some mods. Of course, this gives no guarantees, but guidelines...


The other thing that bugs me is that I do not understand why I should be the first to ask for Mod-experience-reports...

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@Alneyan: Thanks for the Version info! And yes, I am asking for opinions right here... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

@PDF: Me and my friends care a lot whether the game is balanced, and we dont want to spend substantial time to built-up a game just to see that its over due to an imbalanced setup:
For me, the game starts to be fun as soon as the nations meet and fighting gets stuck somewhere. Its no fun to be rolled-over in an instant as well as rolling-over somebody else without resistance. Its the mid-game, when everybody agrees that its entirely unclear who will prevail at the end when the game is most fun.

And actually we consider the 17 nations to be quite balanced and so far everybody got his choice without any conflicts, but I agree that the balancing depends on the correct map size (~10 provinces per nation).

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

This is not an MP only forum... so why shouldn't there be extensive discussion of modding?

I don't think you have to worry about the supply of Vanilla MP games drying up!!!

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

I dont! I see that a lot of effort goes into modding, and I am merely asking how I might access all the work done...

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

There are many ways to use modding. It can add things (new nations, new gods, new pretenders, new units, new disasters) or it can remove things (nations, pretenders, units, disasters). A mod can be used to create imbalances, or to create what a modder feels is better balance (mostly for testing and proving a point). A mod can be used by all players in a game in order to enforce house rules by removing something from play. A mod can be used in connection with a map to create a scenario game. Map commands can do alot toward creating opponents, but mod commands can go even farther.

And my favorite of all... a mod can be created on the fly by a very small and simple program to randomize one setting on every single unit in the game. Not for balance obviously altho since all units get the treatment there would be a balance in a manner of speaking. But for the new-game exploration of what you have to work with and what you might come up against. Its a favorite because it goes well with my site which is all about adding random surprises to the game. www.dom2minions.com

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

Not quite all of the work but there is a stickie at the top of the screen which lists mods. and www.illwinter.com (the home site of the game developers) has a section listing most of them

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

I am aware of those and I am wondering why there are no postings about people's experiences in using them...

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

Have you read my AAR? In particular, the early Posts?

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

This is probably going to come off wrong but when I worked for an ISP I used to say often...
"This is Internet. You can find anything. If you do search and dont find what you want, then you found a need. Fill it! This is Internet."

Im also surprised that we dont have a single concise "review" of the mods now that there are so many. If anyone wants to tackle it then feel free. Im afraid that Im more interested in maps than mods.

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

In reply to Arryn:

No, but I just took a look at the first page...
I dont usually read AAR's, as I found it to be quite time consuming. They contain a wealth of information, sure, but also mixture of random topics, while forum-Posts usually focus on a certain topic so that I can pick the info I desire...

Yes, I should sit down starting an overview over all does mods and doing a poll on each, but there
is so much stuff about Dom2 around and I just wonder why there is so few direct information on mods - maybe they are indeed almost unused in MP and maybe that will change once Mosehansen's server becomes capable of using mods...

(Edit: Which also answers Gandalfs next post which was written simultaneously. Yes, I am demanding things and maybe my tone is a bit arrogant, but I this is not what I intend. I dont want to annoy, I just want to understand why I am seemingly the only one who is interested in that information. My main goal is to enjoy a good game, but I also tried to be helpful when I read someone else's question here...)

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In reply to Gandalf:

Good point about enforcing house rules, this is indeed something I didnt think about.

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I am already happy about Zen's balance-mod, since its discussed intensively here and experience is gathered, but there is so much more out here...

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

There's been some discussion about certain mods being imbalanced - some of it goes into threads on a specific mod, I believe some went into a thread on a modded game that I'm in. Fact is, some of the national mods (many of them) are totally imbalanced - ungodly national units, one had a (cheap!) pretender that put the pre-nerf VQ to shame.

As to why there isn't more discussion - I'm not sure how many people use the mods. Personally, I like some of them (or think I might http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) but 90-99% of my gameplay is now MP. Even when I was playing more SP, it was in preparation for MP, so using the mods (even the solid, official mods) just didn't make sense.

Others that I think would be great to use (the magic duel mod adds 1 gem and raises fatigue to 100 to the spell, the NoWish mod, etc) can't currently be used on mosehansen, and would need to be agreed upon beforehand for a blitz game.

(The other issue with mods is that people _always_ seem to have problems with them - they don't have the mod, don't have it installed properly, etc, etc, delaying the start of games considerably. It's a shame the host couldn't push the mod to the players who didn't have it, or have the wrong Version, etc, etc.)

Even with the magic duel / NoWish mod, using them seems kind of ... pointless, unless you're only playing with the same small group of players: they've been out long enough that it seems obvious that Illwinter is not going to incorporate those changes in the game, and most of your games aren't going to use the mods.

Then again, the only mod I can think of that I'm really interested in playing and using, is Zen's Conceptual Balance mod, which has half a dozen virtues going for it: not least is that no one can really complain that it's unbalanced, because they picked the modified pretender that they wanted to use. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif And anything that reduces the number of VQs in a game is a Good Thing.

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

I believe there are two kinds of modders. The balance modders who have come across balance issues in MP games, and the thematic modders who makes new nations mainly for SP use or their own pleasure.

Some of the thematic modders are concerned with game balance, but as long as the nation is used in SP only balance will not be an issue.

Thematic mods will probably never be tested as much as balance mods. If they are to be tested for balance they must be played in MP and until they are balanced no one will have them in an MP.

I think a MP-balanced nation mod would need two or more developers. Balance and vision would both benefit from this i believe.

I would personally prefer to play a modded MP game if all nations were modded by the same team of modders. The chance that the mod is unbalanced would probably be lesser.

I would recommend that you use score graphs if you play with a modded nation. This way it becomes obvious if the modded nation becomes to strong and the other players can gang up on him as is common in score-graphed games.

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

Hmm, so it seems to be as I feared. And the issue will rise once more when mods can be used in MP as well. I also guess that this one is a necessity so important that I have to repeat it:

Re: What is all the fuss on modding about?
 

And as also happens in map discussions, the insane randomers dont get mentioned or linked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
(j/k Kristoffer)

But there should be more threads on how people like the MODs. not just criticism but praise also. If you dont "pay" for the free stuff, the flow dries up. (please & thank you)