Tweak to Tuatha
 

Newbie though I be, I'd like to suggest a slight change to Man, Last of Tuatha theme. The theme is very nicely designed, with some great units, but it is widely regarded as weak. They're quite interesting in that immediately you are faced with a very difficult design decision in that you'd like to go with a strong bless effect, but paying for it is painful, as you also need points in your scales (your mandated to have Luck 1, and you don't get any heat/cold benefit).

I think one thing that could be easily done in some upcoming patch (perhaps preceded by testing in a mod, if someone were so motivated), would be to give the bard a sage-type research bonus. This seems to me to be thematically appropriate and balanced. I don't see any reason why Last of Tuatha should be in such a tough spot to develop their research as they currently are, and having the sage bonus in the bard still wouldn't make them a top research nation. Alternatively, it might be reasonable to add the sage to their list of units.

Any thoughts?

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

I'm not sure I agree that bards should have a research bonus, they don't seem the tye to just sit around in one province. Keep in mind that the change would also effct base Man, thus keeping about the same balance between the themes.

While Tuatha is not a very strong theme, there are still some good reasons to chose it over base. Compare that to Barbarian Kings, and it looks very well off.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Why do you think it is thematic that bards will stick to lab and use all their time deciphering ancient texts from the Forests of Avalon? And where are these people who have found it to be too weak?

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Maybe so, in which case I'd say add a sage, or some like research type commander to LoT's available commander list.

I'm aware of that but this is not an issue, since base Man already has a researcher that is better than the sage (Daughter of Avalon).



Saying that there are other themes that are worse off is hardly a reason not to improve this theme, especially if the improvement is easy, low risk, and does not introduce difficult balance issues.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Uhm in't man Last of the Tuatha one of the good themes? I mean they have a really good bless troop and they have perhaps the most durable air mages in the game.

Their only problem that I can see if that all of their good stuff is capital only and thus they are limited on large maps.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Well, what I believe indeed is that MAN in general is pretty weak except for small maps.

The big hindrance of capitol only mages commanders and holy troops (I mean serious commanders, Thuatha style or Avalon Witches) except the Bard makes this a damn weak nation in larger maps.

IMO Thuatha Champion, and for Defaul all the maces except the Avalon Crones should be non capitol only ...

For the rest it's good as it is Man.
Air User (perhaps AbUser with those modifications however, but at least you cannot recruit A2 mages around as Vanheim can, but onlu A1 plus nature).

About blessable troops ... well Vanheim is still better, with mounted or flying sacreds, even if more costy.
Even more the Mother of Thuata is not even comparable to the allmighty Odin Allfather.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Actually, it would still effect base man quite a bit. The Sages would be better reseachers than daughters in the early turns, in addition they would be non-capital only and provide a cheap random. I would say almost any nation with unrestricted sages (meaning at every fort) would need some very serious drawbacks to be balanced. Also, I can't say adding Sages seems very thematic (not exactly un-thematic either, I suppose).

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

I disagree that Tuatha are weak, thus don't agree that the bards should receive a research bonus. Sure, they are fairly weak as far as research goes, albeit actually :

22 themes have noticeably better research.
7 themes are approximately equal.
8 themes have noticeably worse research, 6 significantly so, with their best researchers costing at least .5 gold more per Research Point, 1 whose best costs over 1 gold more per RP.

(It's hard to get a really good comparison, but since many nations take at least Magic 1 if not forced to take drain, I compared all with Magic 1 for 30 turns.)

Of those that are roughly equal or worse, some are generally considered "weaker" than Last of the Tuatha : Machaka, base Ulm, base Ermor, and if you believe Cohen, Abysia. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

So - LotT are slightly down in the bottom half of the barrel research wise.

Balancing that, they have one of the 3 best national commanders in the game, great for spell casting, great for combat, and having recuperation so their wounds go away - you can even put disease inflicting items on them. True, they're capital only, but they can Air Trapeze without needing any booster items.

Actually, I think the only weakness of the Tuatha theme is that basically everything good is capital only : their two best commanders, and their two sacred troops. But again - balanced by having great sacred troops; not quite as wonderful as Vanheim's but significantly cheaper.

And one of their capital only commanders is actually a cheaper researcher than the bard, if you go 50 turns or more, because it's sacred.

Like many nations, you simply want to find independents to do the heavy lifting on research.

The thing I think LotT could use for improvement is having at least 1 of its sacred troops or sacred commanders not be capital only.

And also, Man is one of the very few nations that gets worse PD for each point over 20 than it gets for points under 20, which seems flawed to me. (Man and Pangaea each get 2 units for PD under 20; over PD, they simply lose one of the units, without getting a better unit type.)

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Per Liga's book guide which observation has not contradicted, the over 20 point PD troops are in addition to the other ones, not instead of.

Pickles

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

This is correct. These are additive, and you always get the base 1-19 PD troops for every single point of defense both before and after 20. The manual is very confusing on this particular point.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Ahah for the second time Cainehill agrees with something I've said.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

It is truly the end times.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

I think it is a great theme! But IMO, they are below the median, in power level. Also, I think giving them a middle of the road researcher (perhaps capital only) would be thematically appropriate, and not all that dramatic an increase in their power level.


Then you are in agreement with Cainehill. And you and Cainehill may be correct, although I'm not sure that's mutually exclusive with the notion that they should be allowed a slightly improved research capability. I'll respond in greater detail to Cainehill's post.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Good points Cainehill, and nice analysis of the research abilities of various nations. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But if you disagree that Tuatha are weak, then why would you advocate any improvement in their capabilities without some balancing detriment to their capabilities?


Agreed.


Agreed.


Sure, that's exactly what I do. Perhaps this is my inexperience or impatience speaking, but I find that getting provinces w/ sages or jade priestesses to be quite volatile. It can happen on turn 2, or it may not happen until turn 20. And that has a huge impact on how the game plays out. In my not-so-extensive MP experience, I go through the same thing with Abysia, but with Abysia this somehow seems more thematically appropriate. It is also less volatile, since Abysia can focus it's magic research more narrowly, and still be successful.


This may be reasonable (it certainly would make LoT more effective/powerful), but in my mind this sounds like a more dramatic improvement to LoT than making their research capability middle of the road, rather than bottom third of the barrel.

If we gave LoT a midling-decent capital only researcher, this would only have a significant impact on their turn 1-20 play (until such time as you would've found an indy research province anyhow). It makes LoT's opening game considerably less volatile, which seems like a good thing to me.


That certainly looks bad to me, and I'd be happy to see that changed.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

just have the sidth champion recruitable everywhere. Man doesn't need another researcher.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

For the record, in neither of my (admittedly meager) 2 MP games have I found a single sage province. In one of those games I am the leader in provinces well into the game (turn 40 or so). In the other game I had around 20 provinces. With that in mind, I don't think you can just wave your hands and say "rely on finding sages for your research." It simply is not reliable.

I don't have enough experience with the them to say definitively whether it needs a research boost, but I really don't think that you can wave away research problems by relying on sages.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Don't waste time trying to improve a theme that doesnt need it... go help out T'ien Ch'i Barbarian Kings or Ermor Broken Empire.

Re: Tweak to Tuatha
 

Probably because Man is more played than Tien Chi, so ppl has more requests.