The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I know what i think it is. The game has a rich assortment of weapons and shields and basically they are all useless. National troops and even Scs are helpless against a wraith sword/hell sword weilding SC. You get them at level 4 construction for dirt. There should be 1 blood and 1 death lifedraining weapon each at level 8 construction. People would be forced to use troops and other weapons. I love this game dont get me wrong but I think the lifetap weapons make regular troops less than meaningless. Any other ideas for the one big change?

frosted flake

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I don't agree that making them "artifacts" would be fair. I think a better compromise would be to raise them to L6 from L4, and increase their costs substantially. They are too easy to get and far too cheap. OTOH, if you'll recall Moorcock's stories, plus the D&D novels and games that are derivative works from Moorcock's original idea, lifedraining weapons aren't unique (ie: artifacts), though they are rare and VERY prowerful.

BTW, even without a Wraith Sword, a cheap Bane Lord mini-SC, equipped with Flying Boots and Jade Armor is plenty effective. Give him a Flambeau and watch the fun. Are you going to suggest that Bane Lords be nerfed too?

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

You've never seen 40 barbarians take down a banelord with herioc toughness(100 hitpoints), luck pendant, jade armour and a wraith sword? It happens often enough that I avoid barbarian provinces altogether.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

ALL life drain should be summarily eliminated from the game. I mean, the bane lord comes with a powerful bane blade that you need to sack for a wraith sword? How utterly stupid is that?

Life drain is busted and severly unbalanced. Inherent life drain is perhaps the primary reason the VQ is, by far, the best SC Pretender out of the box.

Without life drain, you just might see an Ice Devil die to 50 troops surrounding it, just like it ought to be.

In fact, I am very disappointed with the game after watching battle after battle where a single commander with life drain eliminates unlimited size armies. I have been on both sides of that equation and it leaves an extremely poor taste in my mouth. In fact, I have already decided to not enter anymore MP games until the SC problem is fixed, which I believe is caused by life drain more than any other single thing. Having life drain reduce fatigue is even so idiotic that I can hardly believe it actually happens that way!

If this is not fixed until Dom3, then so be it. If that is not fixed in Dom3 either, then I will cross that bridge when I reach it.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

The second Conceptual Balance Mod in the Series deals with Items and makes those Life Draining weapons considerably more in line. Though this won't in effect stop people from making SC's with lifedraining weapons, but unfeasible to make a ton of mini-combatants. I don't know whether or not this is a good or a bad change, but a change nonetheless. As a spoiler, the costs have been adjusted on various items to look like:

Wraith Sword - Construction 4, 4D, 40 Death Gems (Now you will probably pick Standards of the Damned, but that's the trade off)
Blood Thorn - Construction 6, 3B2N, 20 Blood Slaves, 10 Nature Gems
Clam of Pearls - 4W, 10 Water, 10 Astral
Fever Fetish - 2F2N, 10 Fire, 10 Nature
Blood Stone - 3B2E, 20 Blood, 10 Earth
Winged Shoes - 2A, 10 Air

etc.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Well you might want to pick up another hobby then http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I doubt you are going to be able to convince the Dev's that Life Drain is 'idiotic' as you put it. And that you feel that there should not be any powerful beings able to destroy hordes of normal men by virtue of either Godliness or Uniqueness. You might try playing R;TW, which has nothing akin to magic or gods or such things and relies totally on historical units and formations and other such things (I enjoy RTW, btw for exactly that).

A post stating a tantrum of "If they don't do this, I'm not playing! I'm taking my ball and going home" type of attitude isn't exactly indicitive of reasoned feedback why or how you feel that way other than if you can't play it the way you want, you won't play (which is fine, many a game of solitaire has gotten started that way).

If you really feel that way, you might want to present your case and reasoning for it and maybe you can initiate a change that there shouldn't be Life Draining at all.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Once in a blue moon a poorly protected SC can lose to a host of indies but its rare. Bane lords are only a level 5 summons and cost only 10 gems and are very very effective.They come with a cool blade that noone would consider letting them swing. If lifedrain was nerfed, and screw thematic I'm talking game fun, people would still summon every SC they could they'd just maybe want some troops along and we'd see them decked with different toys. I love Jotun neifelheim and a properly equipped jarl can take out a stack of heavy cav solo..its kinda sick

frosty

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

This is little more than whining.

She isn't actually. The ghost king is easily better, so is the PoD. The daughter of the land is another one who does better. In fact, just about any of the titan types will work better than the VQ.

Why should a demon lord die to 50 measly humans?

What SC problem?

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Are you able to "disconnect" the path requirement from the gem cost? Because for every other item I can think of, the progression goes:

1 path = 5 gems
2 path = 10 gems
3 path = 20 gems
4 path = 40 gems
5 path = 80 gems

So you'd either need 40 water gems (and no astral), or pathing of 2W2S?

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

So what do you do with Vampires? Just a question I'd ask. Change it to Steal Strength? Or just let them tear people up and not have them suck blood (I'm not saying this couldn't be construed as thematic since I doubt every vampire that ever attacks is allowed to suck blood).

Some people do leave the Bane Lord with his normal weapon, I do very frequently, because he is decked out and his weapon does decay. And at the rate Bane Lords can die and their incorporated cost, it doesn't seem economical for me to spend another 10 gems for a Wraith Sword, when I can just get another Bane Lord for another 10 gems (baring Forge bonuses, but they are hardly common to every time I use death).

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Zen those changes seem great to me! It makes sense (to me) that any item that is considered automatic, and wraith swords are, needs nerfing. It happened with elemental armor (what else would you put a neifel in!)and should happen to the rest of their standard equipment ...flying booties,luck pendent, and wraith sword. People will still make wriath swords and the rest..but not for every tom,dick and harry.

frosted

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Item Modding allows you to set the forgable path and then the gem costing path. While it still does follow that rule of path/gem ratio, setting the path requirement can be different from the gem cost.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Do you mean 2W2S?

This seems to be very severely overpriced, and would also have the side-effect of almost denying them to Machaka. The other prices seem to be about in line, but I would bring wraith swords down to death 3 probably.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Death to nerfers!

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Not that rare. As indicated, barbarians do it all the time if they aren't ethereal.

They can only be considered to be "very very effective" if you spend another 20 or 30 gems on them. Otherwise they will die very easily to a prepared opponent. Their MR of only 15 is the most obvious weakness.

If you don't send troops along with your SCs, then they will be killed rather easily by an opponent who has magical power.

What's the problem with this? It's a frost giant wielding numerous very powerful magical items against a bunch of mundane humans on horseback. Wouldn't you always put your money on the giant?

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

the vamyre life drain at least doesnt get an attack,defense bonus and reach like wraith swords. vampyres are also a level 7 summons. I almost never use them offensively (unless empowered) but rather to summon allies. A current game I have about 1000 vampyres and 30+ lords summoning more ever turn. I would have no complaints if that growth was nerfed. Against the living 1 bane lord with a wraith sword can defeat what 3 w/o could not at a gem savings.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I don't know if I'd change the Luck Pendant, yes it's a very useful item, but it also chews up one of the all important misc slots.

I know very well the "Always a wraith sword" problem, because I'm a pretty good perpetuator (most who play games with me will tell you I always have Death in some form). While I don't always put a wraith sword on everything, I do always put it on something that is worth anything as a 'general' item. Meaning if I don't know for sure I'm fighting X I will keep a wraith sword/blood thorn on them. Most SC counters rely on undead or lifeless units because of this and it adds an air of predicitibility to whatever you are fighting. So, in essence it is not particularly overpowered, but useful to any/everything and, IMO detracts from alot of the flavor the game has to offer.

The only other option is to completely remove the Life Draining weapons, but that doesn't seem right either, though that may just be my overdependancy on variable strategy (with Turmoil or if you get hammered by bad luck, you are required to shift moementum and sometimes using wraith sword combatants is your only option because of the nature of the game).

That being said, I don't, in fact, the costs I have diagramed would shift the dependancy on the items but would shift it to only certain items. I'm still fairly certain every Air Queen, Ice Devil, Arch Devil, Demon Lord, Earth King, will be equipped with a life draining weapon, but it will stop people from equipping their Golems, Bane Lords, Firbolgs, Wraith Lords, Niefel Jarls, etc.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

No, I mean 4W. The reason for this is if you change it to 2W2S, then it limits it to a few nations, that can still clam as easily as they did before. And give them what would seem to be an advantage (not that there is).

With 4W, every nation can use them that can get 2W and forge some boosters, which is pricy. Or if you summon a Sea King, a Water Bracelet. The idea behind this is to limit the non-siteproducing gem income to something that you pay a dear price for. Like I said, it might be overkill, but that's what I think most people who don't like Clams/Fetishes/Bloodstones are looking for, overkill. It could just be an easy fix and remove all 3. Then there would be no non-site income. But that would then bring up the issue of 'madcastling' to protect gem economy? Or some other issue, I'm sure.

See above for the overpriced bit. Perhaps it could be changed to 3N1F or something similiar. There is a reason that I haven't released the Mod yet, because I'm still seeing what nations are able and how fast the exponential growth curve on the new costs would be.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

No, I mean 4W. The reason for this is if you change it to 2W2S, then it limits it to a few nations, that can still clam as easily as they did before. And give them what would seem to be an advantage (not that there is).

[/quote]

I wasn't aware that you could separate the required paths from the gem costs. I've no problem with requiring 4W to forge actually, since that seems like a good way to limit the throughput on clams.

Well, the curve for fetishes was already a lot slower than that for clams. Blood stones were already a rarity for most nations, and anyone using them likely has a hammer, so the increase in cost there doesn't matter too much.

I just ran the numbers on fetishes through some calcs, and with F1N1, no hammer, and income of 5 fire gems per turn, at turn 100 you can have 139 built. You'll need to also factor in the cost of whatever is holding them. With a hammer it's 255 fetishes. At F2N2, the same numbers would be 33 and 69 respectively. That's with a huge number of fire gems alchemized into nature gems though, which might not necessarily be the case.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Zen,

Nice mod. While I have always liked the idea of re-investment I have to say that as it currently stands the interest rates seem to be too high.

Also I like your changes on the life drain weapons.

I think that balancing these types of games when there is an active community is a matter of nerfing what people do a lot and then buffing what they do not use. And doing it in small steps.

I would also like to see Protection tuned slightly since it seems essential in most SC builds. If it was treated something like defence that would help things out as well.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Yes, and then you have to add in the factor that blood slaves are (generally) counted as double for purposes of gems.

Well if you want to know how I'm doing it, I went from "OMG, totally and absolutely useless" and then keep adjusting it down until I can find a sweet spot that makes them useful in a small amount (though costly) but not feasible to horde. Even though my personal opinion is that hording is a misuse of gems, I don't like the feeling of micromanagment in order to compete (like with Sabbath Slave). So I am trying in the mod to find the happy medium not only in those particular magic items but with all of them. Anything I can say I have never built before because I have something better I am looking at (but not neccesarily changing).

I guess I could ask the community if they have any that they feel this way about. Though I'm kind of reluctant to hear the flood of complaints http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

I will start with one though, Hunter's Knife http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Zen said:

"Clam of Pearls - 4W, 10 Water, 10 Astral"

I appreciate the reasoning but having one item that does not follow the item cost formula seems like a bad idea.

"Winged Shoes - 2A, 10 Air"

This makes Caelum, Air queens & Archdevils stronger & I am not sure they need it. OTOH flying is the real problem with SCs I think as the operational manoevreability is what seperates them from troops.

Pickles

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

FWIW, I agree with you.

I agree that flying is what makes the SCs so dangerous, but the shoes are presently only 1A and 5 air. Zen doubled it. But it's not enough. I'd make them at least 3A and 20 air gems.

IMO, what makes Caelum so strong isn't that their units fly (so what, they all rout at the drop of a hat, unless you build just archers and keep them away from the enemy), but that they have a large air income to spend on equipping non-air SCs or summoning those air queens that you mention. And that income is something that cannot easily be "balanced" without destroying Caelum as a playable nation.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Life draining weapons should only drain strength not included damage from their opponents. That way, strong commanders/creatures would not heal such insane amounts of hp each strike.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Zen said:
"Yes, and then you have to add in the factor that blood slaves are (generally) counted as double for purposes of gems."


You mean "count as half"? Anyway I think it should be more like 25% - 35% they are very easy to come by.

" Even though my personal opinion is that hording is a misuse of gems, I don't like the feeling of micromanagment in order to compete (like with Sabbath Slave). "

Hear hear.


"So I am trying in the mod to find the happy medium not only in those particular magic items but with all of them. Anything I can say I have never built before because I have something better I am looking at (but not neccesarily changing)."

There is a very long list of these. I think here, as with national troops, there are too many choices most of which are poor.


"I will start with one though, Hunter's Knife http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif"

Yeah this suffers from being one of 3 nature items. I like the L0 items and would any of them for early commanders depending on what I have access to. The knife seems worse than the spear though - there is a similar problem with 4 different earth items. As I favour swords over spears, perhaps incorrectly, there are real options (the axe just looks less good, but maybe duel wielding?).

Two handed items at all levels seem too weak for the cost (with the obvious couple of exceptions, plus Flambeau now we know strength is tripled too). I think they need an accross the board boost to everything.

L2 items introduce Bows. These are no use on SCs as they are not destructive enough. I mean to try them on everyday commanders who mainly try to avoid getting killed. I am not sure they would repay their gem cost but still it keeps everyone involved & feeling they are part of the team.

I have just reviewed what weapons I make from the higher levels & there are not many - except those that have an auxilliary use in which case they are rarely used as weapons.

I only use Flambeau, Herald lance, Wraith sword, Hellsword, Blood thorn, Faithful, Main Gauche of Parrying Fire brand, Frostbrand.

These Last two are cheap & have big numbers & I seem to face undead a lot. Faithful is not one I have used recently. I use uniques when I get the chance but maybe half of those are not any good (or no better then Fire Bands).

Eek am I missing something or are the other weapons just generally inferior?

Anyway I applaud this mod idea as there is definitely scope for more better weapons (oh & other items too) - not nerfing you note but improving the mediocre.

Pickles

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I would also dislike it if forging requirements diverge from forging costs, but its probably better for balancing though...

I've played Caelum quite a bit, and even with GaleGate up early on, you will never ever have enough air gems to supply all your mages with the gems the burn in every battle, not counting the obligatory StaffofStorms in every skirmish-group and those BagofWinds,etc. I found it easier to summon IceDevils with the Blood-sages I get than summoning AirQueens. The mobility, however, is a large boon, as your armies can always be kept busy and thus worth their cost & upkeep. It was the key to my success in a game against three allied opponents on the small Urgaia map, since I could use the same forces again and again to push them back in a round robin fashion as they were poorly coordinated (was sort of a introductory game for my friends http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).
So I also guess that flying/teleporting is essential for SCs, because that is the reason why they can easily outrun any substantial no-SC invading forces; disabling the strategy to hit a big empire at different corners...

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I did a few calculations while I'm waiting for some Ibuprofen to kick in and I think I've come up with a somewhat happy medium (though if you disagree, please give case analysis why)

Clam of Pearls
2W2S Forge Requirement

10W 10S. Dwarven Hammer = 7W7S

Investment 30 Turns from Pure Astral Standpoint or 21 Turns with Hammer.

Question: When do you hit critical mass of Clams? Or, how soon can you have 50 Clams and how many Water gems/Astral gems does this take? Personal Opinion (I don't know if this fixes anything or just delays it long enough that most people don't want to commit the kind of resources to try to horde, but *might* want to forge a few for a small astral income to support Gateway/Teleport needs. This probably goes back to the same old discussion of "Water Gems = teh sux" that I don't personally agree with.)

Fever Fetish
1F2N Forge Requirement
5F 10N. w/Dwarven Hammer = 3F, 7N

Investment 25 Turns from a Pure Fire Standpoint or 17 with Hammer.

Since you can now only put 1 Fever Fetish on a Scout at a time, it increases the micromanagment and need for Scouts if you want to 'shuffle' them around. I will not add in the "Black Servant" quota of +3D because we are looking for the really anal retentive people here who will go through all their scouts and shuffle off those Fever Fetishes and put them on a new scout when they are about to die for a slight advantage.

Question: When do you hit critical mass of Fever Fetishes? Or how soon can you have 50 Fever Fetishes and how many Fire/Nature gems does this take? (Personal Opinion. The shuffling is what always killed me, when people take an extra 20 minutes to shuffle their Fever Fetishes around on their Scouts during their turn, this tells me they need some therapy)

Bloodstone
3B2E Forge Requirement
20B 10E. w/Dwarven Hammer 15B7E

Investment 10 Turns from Pure Earth Gem Standpoint or 7 with Hammer.

Bloodstones are unique in the fact that the Blood Slave component makes them harder to horde, but at the same time, being Earth and having the same path as hammers, you're virtually guarenteed to be using hammers. They also have the benefit(or detriment) of being very hard paths to combine, which actually don't exist in any one nation without the use of boosters.

Question: Bloodstones are probably about perfect because of the two factors that are associated with them. Giving up even 15 Slaves for a potential +1 Earth Income isn't all that impressive unless you *need* the Earth to support some non-blood spells. That being said, what do you think?

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Depending on the map. But I think half is a good standard. I don't know how many 1-3000 Provinces you get in any given game, but I get alot and those provinces are not blood worthy http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Most of this depends on length. I usually choose a sword or a spear. A spear if I am inclined to defend, a sword if I need att. I'd say 75% of the time I chose a spear for the length. This might be a personal preference.

I feel this way as well. Though I can't fix some of these things with the modding tools, I can fix a portion of them.

This is another one. I think it partially has to do with precision and partially to do with the fact the only bows I ever seem to use are to try to cripple SC's. Botuf, Ethereal xbow, Piercer, NoIinSC, etc. I also tend to think that most commanders have a pretty craptacular precision with the exception of a few.

I have a smaller list that is categorized into fighting specific units. I think alot of this has to do with your gem income. You have to think to yourself, "What would I give my SC's if I couldn't give them a lifedrain weapon". While there are not alot of immediate things that pop to mind, there are a few.

I'd hope that is how the entire series is viewed. Some people have mentioned that they think the across the board, or 'too many changes' feel of the Pretender Mod, saying that "Fewer changes = better balance because you don't change too many variables, just fix the ones out of whack" which equates to nerfing everything down to the mediocre level. Unfortunately while there is tremendous variety in the game, after playing it and growing accustomed to the extreme strategies, you find the actual selection is far less than the offered selection because of basic mechanics (like Flying, or Life Draining).

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Yep, I usually do Bloodstones for the Boost in EarthMagic only. That they generate EarthGems is nice to keep down micromanagement for the Earth-Exot-Mages, but I wouldnt have them sit around in a lab...

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Hm perhaps you could make all hoarding items like clams horror marked and aditionally to this diseasing the wearer .
Then you can't be total sure that they pay off at least in the long run and need black servants or similiar to carry them .

Otherwise it is i think too hard to balance them because they become either totally cost ineffective or are still a good choice .

I am sure you have this in mind but i would like to see which costs you think of for hellswords and soul contracts to compare them with the other lifedrain / hoard weapons .

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I'm much happier w/ the new numbers for the gem generating items. they seem about right; expensive enough to prevent heavy hording strats; not too expensive for them to be absolutely worthless. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

A pair of flying boots has far less impact than a single staff of storms, and this change would effectively limit flying to only the three air 3 nations.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

While life draining is prevalent enough to limit the weapons and SC's you might use, I am afraid that nerfing it will greatly weaken SCs overall. I realize that lately, there has been an influx of people who want the game to be more focused on national troops but I am certainly not one of them...I have always liked the evolution of the game from national troops to a combination to a majority of SCs.

Is it your intention to nerf SC's, overall, or are you planning to keep the same balance in some other way ? And I am not talking bane lords who, as you pointed out, can be used cost efficiently as thugs with their starting weapon, but the more expensive SCs.

I realize that making them more expensive and/or having higher path requirements doesn't make them impossible to use or useless (how do I know someone will say that?) but making them less accessible or less prevalent does clearly alter an overall balance (that I already like) if there is no plan to improve them in some other way.

- Kel

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Generally true, but the boots are far cheaper also. And the boots are an "offensive" weapon (in that they enable certain strategies), while the staff is mainly a "defensive" weapon (in that it disables certain strategies). Overall, in Dominions, a strong argument can be made (and has been by some) that offensive strategies are more powerful than defensive ones.

You expect flying from air nations, not from almost everyone. The air nations would have a far easier go at it than other nations, true. Which isn't necessarily a bad thing. Changing the cost of flying boots needs to be balanced out with changes to other items and nations. Everything in Dom is interconnected, everything has ramifications and repercussions.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I think these are steps in the right direction.

If clams/fetishes/blood stones were horror marked, this would be a good thing. This means even if you DO attempt to hoard you will suffer attrition. There should be no such thing as a free lunch.

HOWEVER I have noticed, and I am reminded becuase it just happened to me in an MP game, that horror marked hidden scouts are not killed by horror attacks.

You get the message of the horror attack, but if you attempt to watch the battle the game crashes with a "bad vcr header" error. Further inspection shows that the subject of the horror attack is still alive.

Note: I have only seen this bug occur with hidden, horror marked units (such as scouts with soul contracts).

The fact that the horror mark doesnt really work in this case kinda breaks soul contracts. Also I find horror attacks to be possibly a little bit too rare.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Ewww. I personally don't like the suggested new numbers / requirements for the gem-generating items; they're somewhat on the high side, imo, and cause problems for a number of nations that could previously make some limitted use of them.

IMO, not being able to have 2 clams / fetishes on the same commander probably provided enough counterbalance to the items. You now need to have more units to hold them (presuming that you're either going for massive clams or fetishes, and not both, which means more gold expense and/or more expenditure of death gems for each.

And, in any case, the jury was definately out on whether or not the clams and fetishes actually needed a fix, and I haven't seen anyone, ever, suggest that blood stones were broken.

Making some of the other items more expensive ( wraith swords, boots of flying, etc ) seems like a good idea though, albeit I'd think that most should have their required magic path levels stay the same, and only have the number of gems increased.

That way, the risk of upsetting balance by mucking up which nations can readily get what is eliminated, while still reducing the quantity of the items that will be used within a given game.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

There's a couple of things I like about what Zen's proposed in this and the other thread. One is that rather than just complain, he's actaully got off his backside, thought through concrete proposals, and put them into a mod. The other is the focus on making un-regarded Pretenders and magic items more interesting.

But I think he's also given us an instructive example of why this process almost certainly cannot work. A few months ago everybody loved the VQ and it was nerfed as a result. Now a lot of people seem to have moved on to the Ghost King instead, and so Zen's proposal includes a nerf for that. If that proposal got into the next patch, I reckon that the majority of those players would agree on a new "best Pretender", and in a couple of months we'd be seeing nerf proposals for that. I'd like to make the following points.

1. There will always be a best tool for a particular job. The only way that can not be true is if all the tools are the same! Let's not kill the diversity that gives Dominions its unique flavour.

2. "I think that balancing these types of games when there is an active community is a matter of nerfing what people do a lot and then buffing what they do not use. And doing it in small steps." - Huzurdaddi. Sounds good in theory, except few of the actual proposals we've seen have been anything like small steps (Zen's Pretender changes excepted). Remove life drain! Double the gem cost and casting level of Clams! Such a process, if it had any chance of working, would require repeated, controlled testing, with detailed quantitative analysis of results. Any volunteers?

3. There's a distinct lack of argument based on evidence in these discussions. Does anybody even have numbers for how many games have been played and which nations have won them? How can we sensibly discuss play balance without that?

4. Generally "problems" or "broken tactics" are discussed as though they happen in isolation from the rest of the game, or in the face of purely passive opponents. Yes it's true that life-draining weapons are widely used; but anyone who unthinkingly uses them all the time is going to see their SCs killed by C'tis, Ermor, Pangaea CW or anyone else who has access to death magic (to name only one counter option).

5. Players follow fashions. I suggest that often a particular Pretender/Nation/Strategy is popular simply because everyone is talking about it, not because it's the only good one out there. They will also gravitate to what is cool. A Vampire Queen is cool; a human arch-mage on a horse is bleh. So just because it's popular, doesn't make it over-powered.

Now when we're talking about mods, all of that doesn't matter. Zen can freely disagree with me, write his mods, and find some like-minding players to play his Version of Dom2. Everybody's happy (ha! likely story...)

But lets leave the vanilla game alone. There are enough bugs and needed UI improvement for the devs to work on, should they be feeling generous enough to do so, without constant demands for nerfs to this and that "broken" feature. And should there be really be some sort of balance problem, let's see someone actually collect some evidence and present it to the community and the devs before they start the traditional wailing.

Mark

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

As I discussed with Zen the cost effectiveness of all hoarding stratgies is almost completely dependent upon the size of the map. On a 100 province map with 5 players you would have to be insane to hoard.

On a 400 province map you are crazy not to hoard.

Sadly the engine does not support items costing different amounts on different maps currently.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

While i am not a big proponent of nerfing in general - this started out as a nerf lifedrain post by me- it seems warranted when only one stategy can work. The VQ is a good example. Its a viable god and cerain nations should/can take it. At previous cost you where a fool not to take it - thats the level that neeeds adjusting. I think LD weapons should cost more than they do. I'll still play dom nomatter what they do or dont do cause its my CRACK and I need to smoke a pipefull every day.

frosted flake

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Amen. Not to mention that "nerfing what people do a lot, and buffing what they don't use" is ... stupid. People do what works, so, let's break what works. Next month, break something else that works. Oh, we've nerfed the VQ so much noone uses it? Time to beef it up a little."

Say - people build 1-11 PD a lot. Time to nerf it. People research things a lot - better half everyone's research points. Are we having fun yet?

And the clamming / fetishing? As I mentioned, there's no consensus on whether or not it's broken; there's a lot of people who claim that clams and clam hoarding is broken, sure. I haven't seen near as many people saying the same thing about fetishes, and none at all about blood stones.

I suspect that part of the reason is that generally speaking, people have a lot of other good ways to use fire and nature gems. Great forgings; solid summonings; good battlefield spells and global attack spells, Gift of Reason, etc, etc.

Which goes back to ... The theory that there just isn't enough to use water gems on. Very few of the summonings are particularly useful. Very few artifacts use water gems. Very few of the combat spells are useful / worthwhile, especially since almost all are either castable only in the water, or only out of the water, to the point where other areas of magic are more useful in an underwater battle (air) or close to it (fire, earth).

Instead of following computer gamings' ever-downward spiral of nerfing things for balance, just maybe water should be improved instead.

But I don't think that's something Zen can do in a mod, and while I'm dubious about some of the things proposed in his second big mod, I think his tweaks to the pretenders were great - largely because most were improved, with only a very few getting nerfs.

Thanks Zen!

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Whew, alot of replies and a very good mix of opinions on the subject.

I will try to address them.

Re Mark: I know exactly what you are saying that popular majority is no reasoning to adjust game balance. This is why my main focus has remained on a few things which, I may be biased so am not seeing the whole picture. They are:

A.) Lowering the End Game micromanagment
B.) Allowing the full sweep of options while retaining the variability of strategies.

An example of this (a concrete change I'm making, in a mod because I've tested it thouroughly) is Sabbath Slave. I don't know how many people have tried using Sabbath or having something resembling a Communion with Sabbath, but it is a nightmare to do, even with as few as 4 Slaves and a Master, consistantly.

The reason for this is because of the partially limited game engine and using "Gems" to cast spells, along with the fact that the Sabbath Slave spell casts a Blood Slave in order to cast. So every battle that you wish to try to use Sabbath, you have to pull a Blood Slave off your freight truck scout and put them on the Sabbath Slave unit.

Now to my mind, that is alot of annoying busy work for not alot of benefit and for the majority of the time I disregard a strategy around Sabbath because of the annoying amount of miromanagement associated with it unless I absolutely have to (with say a Mictlan or Diabolic Faith).

So a change would be setting the Fatigue cost to not include a Blood Slave to cast the required Sabbath Slave.

This doesn't impact the game overtly, opens up an entire realm of possibility that maybe was shut off not because of the game, but because of the unwillingness to micromanage every little detail.

You can also see this in the Pretender Mod. With the All-Father. I don't know how many times you have played Vanheim, but the All-Father was the single best pretender for that nation and it was a virtual gimme, that if someone is playing Vanheim, they are playing the All-Father. This, in part, has to do with the fact that he is a SC of the First Caliber, but also because his cost for filling other roles than a SC was not significant enough for the benefit of having a SC + Rainbow. So, he was changed to fit more in line with something that did what he was supposed to do well (beat things up and use Air and Death well) but it wasn't an instant choice every single time.

Now even with the Mod in place, will the All-Father get chosen quite a bit for Vanheim? I imagine so, he's a very good Pretender, has a host of good abilities and can provide you with an early expansion while not petering out as the midgame goes in terms of usability. But at least other pretenders that have the secondary Role (Rainbow) have a chance to be used.

Re: Cainehill

This mod isn't exactly for me. There is a suggestion on the QT3 Boards that would fix Clamming without requiring a cost adjustment. But there are some people who feel they have to micromanage in order to remain competitive (probably from their own feelings) or feel that your non-site gem income shouldn't overshadow your game balanced, magical site variability gem income.

I would be happy if Clams, Fetishes, etc didn't exist. I don't use them except in very rare doses in MP, and generally it's to create a supplement income of a gem type in order to fuel other spells (Fires from Afar, Teleport/Etc). This is why the Mod is still in the beta, because if there is not a happy medium to be found that allows both, then there is no reason to change the Clams/Fetishes (though I may release a Mod for those out there who just want them taken out so they can have their own games without having to create bizzare house rules) because it will just shift the bar and not change anyones commitment to micromanagement.

Re: Winged Boots. I think it's overkill to go 3A, 20 Air Gems, this would limit flying too much. But, if it goes to 2A, 10 Gems, then it's not a "every Tom, Dick, and Jane" has flying boots from a sage who happened to get lucky. You can see that another reason that Air is universally powerful is that they are very effective, but also seemingly excessively cheap (Staff of Storms is an example).

A FYI and something I didn't put in the snippit of information is that Staff of Storms will be changed to 4A, 6 Const, 40 Gems. While this won't stop every important battle from having a Staff of Storms or you getting Storm/Wrath'd all over, it will make the decision of actually giving *every* single squad of wrather's a Staff alot harder and less cost effective.

Re: Lifedrain Weapons

Kel, yes I am looking at things, and all it may be is that the cost would be adjusted to 20 Gems for a Lifedrain weapon. But because I have fallen into this mindset (of picking lifedrain over normal weapons) I have come to the conclusion that while some people might whine and throw a tantrum about Lifedrain, my rational consensus says that either there are not enough specific weapons for specific things or that the Lifedrain weapons are just so cheap that you *can* afford to always take Death on your Pretender in some form, search up 3 or 4 sites and provide yourself with more than enough Wraith Swords to give everything one, while bootstrapping some Blood and making Blood Thorns for the rest.

Edit: I also wanted to say everything is in the "OMG, that is so overpriced. Scale it back" stage I wouldn't expect anything to remain at it's current level with any certainty.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I may actually DROP OUT of the games I am currently in to start games with your mod it looks *that* good currently.

SC's without life draining weapons?
A life without clams on big maps? ( again I think that they are ok on small maps )

Sign me up. Too bad my beloved GK was slightly nerfed I may have to think about other pretenders now ... no wait that's a good thing.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Mark the Merciful said:

"1. There will always be a best tool for a particular job. The only way that can not be true is if all the tools are the same! Let's not kill the diversity that gives Dominions its unique flavour."

This seems to be self contradictory. If people always pick the ghost king there is no diversity. And arguably there are at least 17 jobs in dominions being pretenders for the different nations. So it would be nice if they used different chassis. (not that I have seen that many Ghost kings so I am not sure it needs tweaking. It is I think the best in a particular role - high level rainbow but then something has to be as Mark says.)

"2. (snip tweaking) Such a process, if it had any chance of working, would require repeated, controlled testing, with detailed quantitative analysis of results. Any volunteers? "

Actually there are a bunch of people blitz testing the pretender mods it seems. I expect they will get more testing than many of the original chassis will have (he speculated wildly)

"3. There's a distinct lack of argument based on evidence in these discussions. Does anybody even have numbers for how many games have been played and which nations have won them? How can we sensibly discuss play balance without that?"

The game is more about the journey than the destination. If the same familiar faces keep coming up in every game it gets boring it does not matter who wins (which will ultimately depend as much if not more on diplomacy)

"4. Generally "problems" or "broken tactics" are discussed as though they happen in isolation from the rest of the game, or in the face of purely passive opponents. Yes it's true that life-draining weapons are widely used; but anyone who unthinkingly uses them all the time is going to see their SCs killed by C'tis, Ermor, Pangaea CW or anyone else who has access to death magic (to name only one counter option)."

The situation is that there are undead & constructs and there is everything else. I have fought more undead than anything it feels like but even against them the life draining weapons are not dramatically worse than the other choices for bashing hordes of rubbish. The berserk from the hellsword can even be useful. There are better choices of course but that still only gives two different strategic situations in one of which life draining weapons are the best by far.

"5. So just because it's popular, doesn't make it over-powered."

This is true and is why I prefer buffing to nerfing as it seems less like stitching someome up.

It should mean that good counter strategies come out too as lots of people will play against these popular races/strats. Do we see that?

"But lets leave the vanilla game alone. There are enough bugs and needed UI improvement for the devs to work on, should they be feeling generous enough to do so, without constant demands for nerfs to this and that "broken" feature. And should there be really be some sort of balance problem, let's see someone actually collect some evidence and present it to the community and the devs before they start the traditional wailing."

This is not a whiny thread.

The basic game is not going to change.

If it were my solution to too much sub par stuff would be to cut out the 75% of the stuff that is and then add it back under controlled circumstances a bit at a time as it was tested. Then the devs would only have to worry about 1/4 as much content and could do a good job on those failing aspects. I still think less is more.

The game is far too small time to have proper deep testing such as warcraft etc will get so we willl be stuck with impressionistic views. But that applies to what we already have - to assume it is best because it is like this now is just knee jerk reactionary.

Pickles

(apologies to the thousands of playtesters out there!)

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

IMO Fever Fetish are too costy in that mod, probably they're alredy fine since Fire Gems are most used to overpriced remote spellcasting (well at least Fires from Afar is overpriced, it should cost 5 F.Gems)

The heavier effect are Blood Stones, for what regards the gem generating item. This prevent a Nation like Abysya to come to Hammers.
Blood Stones are forged by a Warlock + Earth random pick, to get E2, and then E.Boots, so E3 -----D Hammers
This is a far heavier unbalance for that nation depriving it of her only way to reach hammers (except pretender).

After, about Clams, I'd make them W3. They're a source that allow you to exchange "nature" of gems. You need astral, so probably you're lacking astral. The gems used are always 20.

Staff of Storms, IMO it should be construction 6, and 4 Air, 40 air gems. This because an Air Mage to cast Storm in battle, should be A4. So to fill a staff with the power of the storms, it should be theorically able to cast the spell.

Flying Boots, A2, 10 gems it's good.

Draining Life Weaponry:
Wraithsword, D3S1 IMO and so 20 D.Gems and 5 Pearls.
Why S1? I've took idea from the Soul Drain (the D4S4 spell). And const-6. This make it difficult to forge too.
But even D3 is good.
Hellsword, it has the hindrance of berserk if wounded ... a bad stuff for an SC that perhaps get a scratch from an arrow. B3F1 20 slaves 5 fire gems.
Blood Thorn, this is more difficult to set, because it gives too 1 point in Blood. 2 Nature imo it's too much, perhaps B41N 40 slaves 5 nature is better. Or B31N.

If you made your Item mod with Blood Stones and Blood Thorn as you previewed here, Abysya will fall so down... losing bth items from their base forging range.

Many items indeed should be less costy, like Stone Idol, the Crystal matrixes, the Stone Sphere and such.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Maybe blood stones should be modded to not give an earth gem anymore. The +E is a nice benefit anyway. Halve the blood slave requirements and you are away to the races.

As for life-drain, surely it could be removed without any super harmful impact.

e.g.
- Wraith Sword could turn you ethereal instead
- Hellsword could have some appropriate hellish effect in addition to the berserk, like maybe a reverse flambeau, x3 damage vs sacred units/angels or some such.
- Blood thorn could be used for dominion push as it was meant to be and +B benefit instead of as freaking main weapons

At minimum Blood thorn needs to be nerfed. It's just embarrassing when a Golem equipped with a knife can tank 300 devils...

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

I just wanted to interject here. The reason that the Ghost King was 'nerfed' was not because he was the best at what he did (sturdy rainbow), but that it was impossible to bring other Pretenders into the same line at a comprable cost. Like Human Pretenders, why would you ever choose a physically weak, no survival abilities, type of Human Pretender, however cheap, when you could take a supremely sturdy (almost SC), full slot, intrinsic ability laden, low cost Ghost King that autosummons Ghosts from time to time to act as a guard. Oh, and he's stealthy.

You see the connundrum http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

re: the change to Sabbath

I understand the logic of what you're saying, and its certainly not an earth-shaking change. The only problem I have with it is thematic; the use of Blood magic should always require the sacrifice of slaves - this is exactly what makes Blood what it is, and makes it different from the other paths of magic.

On the other hand, even when I'm playing a Blood nation, I never bother trying to use Blood magic of any kind on the battlefield, since none of it seems that effective anyway, and managing the slaves is a nightmare.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

well, the actual use of blood magic will still require blood slaves, per se, as any blood magic spells cast by the communion master will still need slaves; thematicality is maintained, function is improved, and micromanagement is diminished.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

Could be good. Maybe, just maybe, Mictlain may have powerful battle magics now. Could be interesting.

But ... but ... I love my GK! *sniff* I'll miss you most of all.

Re: The one change Dom2 really needs.....
 

My suggestion to base the total world clam income on the number of water provinces would automatically balance this. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

PvK