A simple thank you
 

Not a "Great game, but you really need to add this one feature..."

Just an acknowledgement to Illwinter for making one of the most fun, absorbing, addicting, time-consuming- wait, why am I thanking you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

Agreed, I'm still playing and learning this game 6 months later. Great game.

Re: A simple thank you
 

ROTFL Seriously I was giggling out loud for minutes. Not sure why it struck me so funny but it did.
Yep a dangerously addictive game.

Re: A simple thank you
 

One full year for me (counting 2 mo of Dom1 !), still totally addicted (5 ongoing PBEMs !) and now I think I'm relatively competent with 1/3 of the nations http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif !
Never experienced that before with any game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif A great THANK YOU to IW and Shrapnel !! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif
BTW when will be Dom2 1st "birthday" ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif I'm sure it's close now!

Re: A simple thank you
 

This game could easily blow the Civilization game series out of the water upon the arrival of Dominions_3... especially if diplomacy features for the AI are added. I wonder if the developers will find a major publisher for Dominions_3 which will save us the hassle of buying Online.

Re: A simple thank you
 

From the looks of things, by then there wont be any.
Maybe someone will iron out the hassles in offering Digital Downloads instead.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Yeah playing it now since 4-5 months and still discovering new things each day . Even started to play SP again because i haven't time for more than 1-2 MP games now during my new semester http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .

I was as many of you may remember for about 1 month in a period of thinking dominions is unfair and unbalanced but that was only because some things are more hidden http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
Dominions 2 is the best strategy game of all http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

Why don't Shrapnel offer that already ? I've been very impressed with the download system Stardock offers for their (GalCiv) and other games (look at totalgaming.net) for example ...

Re: A simple thank you
 

Not really my area so Im talking mostly from info in SysAdmin newsGroups. It seems kindof at the level that "shopping cart" sites were years ago. Now if someone wants to do a shopping cart site then what resources are needed to support it, what package to download and install, what you need to pay and to whom in order to get one that wont put you in the headlines, thats all worked out. For Digital Downloads its all looking good, but its not where shopping cart is yet.

Re: A simple thank you
 

A retail publisher? Yeah that would be great...

Here's what we can expect.

A rushed product to meet retail deadlines (ie full of bugs and dumbed down).
No royalties to the developers so the suits in marketing can buy new cars and take "clients" on marketing trips.
Crappy customer service, and almost no patch support.

Seriously I know if I were a fan of this game I wouldn't want a retail publisher for it. Illwinter would be out of business in no time at all.

Instead you get great customer service, direct interaction with the programming team AND the exectuvies from Shrapnel, monthly royalty checks to keep Johan and the guys in business (and we have never missed a check), and support of the community.

This might sound sarcastic, but seriously look at how many developers that are similiar to Illwinter have been ripped off this year by retail publishers...

Re: A simple thank you
 

We do offer downloads for some products. It's just not feasbile for something the size of Dominions. Not without adding some serious server hardware (beyond the three we have) to account for the processing and such needed.

Also a download only game, which has to have a pdf manual, is extremely easy to pirate. This leads to less sales and less money for Illwinter to work on Dom 3.

Re: A simple thank you
 

why don't you all just slap up a torrent and let us (the dom2 community) provide bandwidth? (WoW is doing it just fine, so is half-life etc etc)

Re: A simple thank you
 

But you are already hosting the download of the Dom2 Demo, which is the about the same size as the Retail Version as far as I can see. How would it be more complicated to just host a retail copy of the exe and have Demo functionality in place until a user enters a purchased CDKey?

On the topic of a download game being more or less easy than a CD based on in terms of piracy I have to disagree given the prevalence of pirated retail CD games. Particularly with the advent of p2p networks you dont even need a strong server in order for a malicious user to share out thier ripped executables.

And on a side note: download only games do not implicity require an Online manual. Look at how Spider Web Software does thier indy games. You download the exe, buy the CDKey, and then eventually you are shipped a CD and a manual as well. But as with most games (dom2 included) people rarely learn the game from the manual but rather from trial/error, in-game tutorials, and user-authored walkthroughs/FAQs.

And now before everyone starts jumping down my throat for voicing a disagreeing opinion I want to state for the record that I am very much appreciative of Shrapnel and Illwinter for Dom2 and by no means wish to make them lose money. My comments are solely in response to the running dialog in this thread.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Our experience with download games is they don't add sales to the books, and they open a game for much easier attempts to pirate the game.

Since most of our games do not offer copy protection, which is a choice of each developers and our recommendation, it doesn't make sense to put the manual into public domain by making it downloadable.

And there is no way any publisher, or developer, would consider putting the download file out for folks to distribute via a service like bit torrent. There is almost not way to control piracy that way, and how would you integrate that into a payment portal, etc.

Again we do download games, but only where it makes sense.

Re: A simple thank you
 

There's also integration with the store software and other considerations. Also this is just going to complicate things at release. When we put the demo out, we have mirror sites to publish it. This helps the load out somewhat. Imagine having everyone who want's the game trying to download it from one server at the same time. With a demo people can deal with timeouts, with a paid copy of a game people are going to get pissed.

The other side of this is that it just frustrates most customers. As much as people like the idea, few have the network infrastructure to download a game without multiple interruptions. We get no complaints about folks downloading our demos, but we definetly get complaints from folks buying the game when they run into similiar problems. And finally there is the manual concern. Printed manuals prevent piracy more than a CD key, or other forms of copy protection, especially with a game like Dominions.

I agree, that's where a printed manual comes in. Other forms of copy protection are really useless in many cases.

Again that depends on the game. In the case of Dom 2 your probably right, but again that's something to consider for the future. And if we ship the CD and manual, then really we don't solve the original posters problem. He hates the complications of shipping a product to him.

No problem with a disagreement, but we've formed our opinions based on sales of downloadable products and CD products for 5 years. We were selling download products long before broadband was even a consideration.

Re: A simple thank you
 

I notice, Richard, that your replies have not addressed PDF's post regarding Stardock making GalCiv available for download, nor that GalCiv is also available at retail. Have you not commented because Stardock both develops and publishes their games (unlike almost everyone else in the industry)? Is there some reason why Shrapnel cannot implement a system similar to what Stardock uses?

Another thing I don't understand about your Last post is why downloading "makes sense" for some of your games, but not for others?

Re: A simple thank you
 

Because retail is the enemy of a complex game, period. A game that complex in retail will have a large number of returns, and we won't be able to compete with the price of the game once it's price get's slashed after the first few months. You can't do retail and Online effectively, you have to do one or the other not both. As far as Stardock, you would have to ask them. We have done the research on this and it doesn't work. We have also been in retail before, and have had offers to put our games in retail, but we don't do that in service to our developers. We want them to make as much money as they can so they can make as many great games as possible.

As far as the download for some games, it's something we have to evaluate on a game by game basis. And if we do that then we have to forgo the printed Version. Doing both doesn't work.

Re: A simple thank you
 

"Retail is the enemy of a complex game?" Nonsense. HOI is complex, and sold at retail. And Paradox continues to support it with patches, almost 3 years later. Need another example of a complex game? Try Morrowind. You cannot even say retail is the bane of niche games because HOI is a niche game.

I happen to agree that small developers are better served by a business model that avoids retail, but please spare me contrived reasons of "complex" games not being viable at retail. As for price-slashing down the road, that's to be expected. The modelling just has to indicate whether the game's increased sales will more than make up for it. If it won't, then you don't do it retail. But the modelling has to be done on a case by case basis. As long as there is at least one example where it's worked for someone else's game, you cannot assert that it will never work, which is what you're implying.

Regarding not being able to do retail and Online effectively, that's why I mentioned Stardock. They've made it work. Telling me that I'd "have to ask them" fails to answer my question to *you*, which was why can't you do what they've done? I assume that when you say that you've researched the market, that also includes researching how they've done what they are doing?

Finally, as Ironhawk pointed out, Spiderweb allows you to download the game and get the manual later. Other companies also do this. So you do *not* have to forgo a printed Version with downloading.

Back in January when I bought Dom 2 I would have been delighted to be able to immediately upgrade my copy of the game Online (or as so many other games do it, get an unlock code), so that I could continue my demo games past turn 40 and beyond 4th level magic, without waiting the several days it took to get my copy. I didn't need the manual right away. What I needed was a full working copy. Never underestimate the value of immediate gratification. It's the main reason credit cards exist.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Stardock wrote their own package for that. Its kindof at the level that "shopping cart" sites were a few years ago. Those who have it working have probably written their own. The packages available are buggy and dangerous on security matters with peoples shopping info. The requirements to make it work are still being ironed out (such as, what does it take to handle the load of releasing a long-awaited game).

Of course NOW if someone wants to do a shopping cart site then what it takes, what package to download and install, what you need to pay and to whom in order to get one that wont put you in the headlines, thats all worked out. For Digital Downloads its all looking good, but its not there yet.

Everything has its pros and cons. Shrapnel could probably drop work on other things and write a package to gamble on breaking into the DD market early. But why? What they are doing is working fine.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Arryn you are such an expert on everything. Really.

But while you are at it, why dont they make Dom2 into an XBox game? Thats going well.

Or maybe they can release a Dom1 Version for PDA's or Cell Phones?

I know. They should put full page ads in every gaming magazine.

And they can send free CD's of Dom1 (which did hook alot of people) in the snail mail to everyone in America. AOL made it work.

Microsoft is able to handle huge impacts of suddenly announcing the release of something long awaited. All they do is maintain servers all over the country load-balanced.

Of course there are people who make things work. And for each one there are dozens who crash and burn making the effort to jump in fast. What you are really asking is why doesnt Shrapnel jump in and gamble the big bucks (or big crash) like a few others are doing. Everyone at Shrapnel are gamers (according to their "about us" page) but that doesnt mean they have to do their business like a Dom2 newbie. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

Arryn,

Morrowind and HOI are not niche games in the same way Dominions 2 is. HOI is wargaming lite, Morrowind also is not a overly complex game. I have played both. Dominions 2 is a game with an aggressive AI and a wealth of information that must be mattered to be good at the game. A traditional publisher would have advised Illwinter to take BOTH out of their game to reach a larger audience.

We have done the research, and yes I know Brad Wardell very well. In fact we have talked in the past about doing some of the very same things he is doing with his drengin network (now totalgaming.net). But in the end our research doesn't show that it is profitable. Also consider that Stardock makes a large sum of it's money through a seperate product that easily outsells it's game software.

And again we can't do both like Spiderweb for the reasons I stated above. It is either one way or the other for a variety of reasons.

Yes retail IS the enemy of niche products and complex games. In fact it is the enemy of PC games. PC Games continue to be relegated to the back of most retail space, while consoles get the best placement. We have intentionaly turned away retail offers from numerous companies based on our research on how retail affects your product line and profits. We also were in retail at one point with some of our previous titles (pre-Shrapnel) but we learned how bad retail is for most developers the hard way.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Despite the fact you're just being snide and sarcastic, which is not only unlike you, but bebeath you, I'm actually going to bother replying to each point.

Envious?

Wrong demographic. Other than that, why not? Dom 2 isn't resource-intensive so it should actually work on that hardware. (No need to answer, my reply is a rhetorical comeback to your sarcasm.)

Nah. Screen's too small.

No need. The free press from CG and CGW is more than enough.

AOL can afford to do that since they charge more for service than almost every other ISP in the US, and with economies of scale, their incremental costs are neglible compared to mom & pop ISPs, which would be the ISP equivalent of indie game publishers. If IW was as big as Bioware they might well be able to afford to stuff free CDs in the gaming magazines. But if IW was that big, they'd also be able to afford a UI programmer ...

Given the unit counts for something like Dom 2, comparisons to Microsoft or EA or Sony are pointless. Go back to valid comparisons like Stardock or Spiderweb.

The point of doing research is twofold, first to see what those who succeeded did right so you can emulate them, and second to see what those who failed did wrong so you can avoid those mistakes. You do not do research to justify fear of failure. And it's fear of failure that you're using as a stick to beat back questions of what's preventing the emulation of success.

No, Gandalf. That's not what I asked. I didn't ask why they aren't doing X (which Richard has already answered several times). I asked what's preventing them from doing X. A subtle, but important difference. I was trying to understand whether Shrapnel's not doing something is due to lack of resources, internal politics (or some other reason that they might not wish to divulge), since the reasons being given do not make sense to me when I scratch beneath the surface of them.

Richard made general statements and I cited specific examples to the contrary. That's elementary debate and logic. He made claims and all I'm doing is asking if he can back his claims up. I realize that he's not obligated to "prove" anything, but if he's going to bother to try to do so, then his "proof" should be able to withstand objective scrutiny.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Develop and finish the game... then find a publisher. During the time before release provides more Q&A testing.

Many gamers don't trust buying anything Online and will never get the game if the game can only be purchased Online. I'm only suggesting the developers should find a way to get their game into the local stores otherwise there are thousands and thousands of gamers they will never reach.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Actually I think there are local retailers who carry it. And if you know of one you want to carry it then have them contact Annette.

Re: A simple thank you
 

yes lately I am quite unlike me on the forums.
But you are comparing to people like StarDock. Unless stardock releases their software, or sells it as a package, and makes it clear what it takes to do what they are doing, then you are asking why they cant create what stardock created?

Im not knocking Brad for the accomplishment of StarDock but it was (and still is) a pretty big risk on his part to create a system for managing software downloads, credit cards, and serial IDs. Have you used it? Personally I find it abit obnoxious and would not want to have a Version of such software loaded on my system for every company that I want to buy products from. Yes its a working package but I think I would wait for a generic security tested package to become available the way shopping cart and forum software has.

If they were going to drop what they were doing and write a web package Id rather see a generic PbEM site since Ive not been able to find one I think that might even be marketable.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Fine and dandy if the developers can afford to up-front all the development costs, including the market research to properly design the game to begin with so it's something Users will actually want to play, and for internal testers so that Users can actually play the silly thing.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Yes, I have and continue to do so. BTW, other companies do downloads (for business apps), but I didn't mention them because they are Windows-only downloads that require IE6, and they aren't games.

IIRC, you aren't forced to.

That'll be a long wait ...

Re: A simple thank you
 

It might be available at retail stores, but Last time I hear anything Stardock hadn't yet seen any of the money from those sales.

Re: A simple thank you
 

First, Richard, thanks for your replies and for taking the time to make them.

Careful. Did you intend to post flamebait for all the HOI fans that play Dom 2 (of which there are many)? HOI is no more "wargaming lite" than SE4 is a lite 4X game. HOI is a grand strategic wargame. Just because the scale is large doesn't make it any less of a wargame given all the work HOI's devs have gone through to try to model the setting for the game. Also, HOI and Dom 2 are both strategy games, and both are of comparable complexity. They just aren't complex in identical ways.

It is. Complexity isn't measured solely by the user's interaction with the game. What's going on under the hood counts too. But I'm not going to debate this further with you as it's a tangent to the main point.

As can be said of most good strategy games. Dom 2 isn't more complex than another of Paradox's games, Victoria, which is also sold retail.

Thanks for this answer. May I ask why? Specifically, how is it that some other companies (such as Spiderweb) can make it work? What I'm trying to understand is what's different about Shrapnel, or IW, or Dominions that prevents it from being viable?

True. But GalCiv is profitable nonetheless, and they have succeeded in doing what you'd claimed couldn't work. But I don't mean to rehash that. Now if you tell me that you cannot replicate their download method because Stardock subsidized the manhours that went into making (and maintaining) it using the income from their non-games, that I'd understand. Assuming that Shrapnel was open to the idea, though, would it be feasible to *license* their download technology so that you needn't reinvent the wheel?

Which has to do with demographics of the buyers of most games, and the cost-savings of creating (dumbed-down) console games as opposed to costlier PC games (which typically have an older and more demanding audience).


Thanks again for your replies and for your time.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Really? It shouldnt be. No longer than it took for the other packages to appear. Shorter if any.

Re: A simple thank you
 

I disagree for the simple reason that there is far less demand for electronic media distribution systems than for general-purpose shopping carts (which are used mainly for snail-mail shipments). It's mainly only needed for the software industry, whose products are already in electronic format, while shopping carts are used for all sorts of products and services sold via the Web. More importantly, though, the big companies that want to make their software available for download already have systems in place. And that includes big game companies like EA and Sony, since you can download full working betas of their games in this fashion. That leaves just the "small fry" game companies (small in comparison to EA, Sony, Symantec, etc.) to have to either develop their own systems, license someone else's, pay someone else to do it for them, or wait for your eventual GPL system.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Now I'm anxiously awaiting Arryn to jump out of a cake and say "Hello, I'm Derek Smart!"



http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

Dammit, Zen, you didn't need to go so far out of your way to be so obnoxiously and gratuitously insulting as to compare me to that unrepentant, egomaniacal, lying blowhard. And just when you were beginning to have me fooled into thinking you'd gone all soft and sweet. I should've known better. hmmph! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image.../firedevil.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

I still think you've got ravishing elbows and cute toes!
I thought this thread needed it. For only that reaction.

So choice.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

I know way more about programming than Derek does in his dreams. Heck, I probably know more about everything than Derek. (Not really, but Gandalf thinks so when it's that time of the month for him. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) I'm more charming than Derek (and more modest, too). And I'm way sexier than he is. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif BTW, elbows and toes aren't the parts of a gal that you should go out of your way to flatter (though toes do count). In addition to the usual spots foremost on you boy's minds, try hips, thighs, ankles, neck, and ears.

So if you're going to compare me to an unrepentant egomaniacal deceiver who thinks they know everything, the least you could do is compare me to Brother Gates.

Re: A simple thank you
 

I wasn't comparing, I was nudging in a jovial manner to get those pie in the sky foaming shaving cream dreams back down to flood plain level http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

You know I'm curious what the technical issue with digital downloads are. It seems to be fairly straightforward, unless you want to have very sophisticated anti-piracy measures, so that a certain downloaded copy of a game can only run on a specific machine or something.

FYI, I'm a regular buyer of e-books, mostly from Fictionwise.com, so I'm used to measures of this kind.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Ebook distribution packages are available, so anyone can buy the software and quickly setup a site.

They also have an advantage in not having to manage much in the way of being flooded when they release a long awaited product.

Re: A simple thank you
 

I am a fan of Paradox games but Victoria is by no way as complex as dominions .
Warfare is more or less reduced to 1!!! unit like infantry with guards .
If you read the fanmade Victoria manual vickywicky and the economic model explanations on this page and a little bit the forum you know almost everything about Victoria .

After 1 month you know most important things about it while in dominions you even discover new things after almost a year .

Victoria has much more unneeded micro (pop / revolution management ) than Dominions but is not as complex . It is more a history simulation with focus on the economy .

Re: A simple thank you
 

Boron,

It's obvious that in however little time you actually played Vicky you succeeded in learning very little about what the game's about, and what goes on "behind the scenes". Your summation of Vicky is tantamount to someone saying that Dom 2 just has magic item making, combat, and spellcasting. As we all know, Dom 2 is much deeper than that. So is Vicky, whether you appreciate it or not. I'm not going to waste my time (nor that of this forum's members) trying to educate you on just why Vicky is more complex than you realize. This isn't the proper forum for that. Paradox has excellent forums where I'm sure many many players would froth at the chance to set you straight were you to post there what you just posted here.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Arryn please try briefly .
I played Victoria excessevly about 1 month this maybe a bit too short but not much .

Really seriously : In Victoria you first try to setup your economy by building railroads , factories and upgrading pops .
I fail to see though how this requires a lot of skill ?
It is a lot of micro if you have a big country but after playing a bit each player knows which Factories are important and/or profitable .

Warfare is ultrasimple because this is not the focus of victoria . Though there are now about 30 different land units/brigade attachments you normally chose only 2-3 types so it is almost like in classical EU2 .

Then there is only left Diplomacy .


In Dominions instead you have really almost endless possibilities because there are so many viable strategies .
I think you can say Dominions is much deeper than Victoria though these games shouldn't really be compared .

Re: A simple thank you
 

I don't post here often. but those of you who know me also know I'm drawn to trainwreck threads like a moth drawn to a light bulb. I find it fascinating how a thread can start with something as well intentioned as a "simple thank you" and evolve into a discussion which includes...well a discussion like this one.

I'd like to say thank you to everyone here. Thank you for the kind words and compliments which inspired such thoughtful, passionate discussion. I'm sure Illwinter appreciates your analysis of the best way to bring their games to market, as do we. We never want to lose sight of the fact that without our customers purchasing, playing and supporting our games, we would not be here. And we're proud of our forums where we encourage discussion of ideas, are able to answer questions, and watch the development of a community where players and developers come together to make game play a great experience.

We appreciate those of you who purchase our games through our e-store. And we pride ourselves on making it a positive experience. We accept just about any form of payment out there, credit cards, checks, money orders and PayPal. We offer free shipping on domestic orders via USPS priority mail. We ship to any destination in the world to which UPS and USPS offer service. We have an on-line customer support center where your submissions are answered in a matter of hours, not days.

But we do realize some people are hesitant to order on line, and for them we have available a downloadable order form which can be mailed or faxed to us. And for those who prefer to buy the game in their local game shop, we're there, too. No, you won't find our games in the "big box" chain retailers. But you will find our games in local, independently owned game and hobby shops. And we encourage you to support those brick and mortar shops by spending your gaming dollars there rather than in the chains. You won't find our games in the same store where you buy your vacuum cleaner. You'll find them in stores that are dedicated to the gaming industry.

Just because you find a game on the shelf of Best Buy or EB Games, does not necessarily mean the people involved in putting the game there would consider the release a "success." Only Paradox and Strategy First can say if HOI was a successful release. My observations are that HOI (and GalCiv) were introduced into mass retail by Strategy First. SF is currently operating under Chapter 11 protection from their creditors, including their developers who are reportedly owed 1.7 million in unpaid royalties. Paradox has said publically SF owes them well into the 6 figure range. Fortunately for gamers, Paradox has been able to continue to support their titles since their departure from their publisher. But not all of SF's developers have been able to survive such a hit. This is not a road we want to risk taking - not for us or our developers.

In my personal opinion (and I'm not a developer but I am married to one) the single benefit a developer of a "complex" game realizes by having a title pushed into mass retail is the ego trip. I'm sure it's wonderful to walk into Kmart and see your game on their shelves (even marked down to $9.99). But the reasons you don't see our developers' titles in Kmart are the very core of Shrapnel Games' founding principles. Shrapnel was born out of Tim's experience having designed "complex" games which were published through traditional methods and sold at mass retail. While the games were "successful", it was not a financially satisfying experience for him. Thus emerged Shrapnel Games. You may find it interesting (or not) to read the About Us page on this site. Perhaps it will help explain why we do things the way we do.

That's not to say we're adverse to change. Quite the opposite. We are poised for growth. We listen carefully to what our customers have to say; we watch industry trends; we respond to economic turns; we research and experiment new ideas. We're aware that many companies like ours are expanding the digital download method of game distribution. We watch new releases and listen to what their customers are saying. At this time there is a new release on the market that some folks report has taken over 23 hours to download. We're not ready to jump on that bandwagon. And I think it's interesting that while the dd trend is on the rise, so is, according to CNN and others, the price of games.

Again, thank you for using our forums to let us know what you think. It's important to us. I fear we may be sounding a bit defensive that our philosophies are being questioned. Please know if we do sound defensive, it's because this is our passion; it's our love. And we are most grateful for those who would prefer to purchase our games in a different manner than what we offer, but who purchase our games anyway. We trust you find the games are worth effort. So to you, "a simple thank you."

Re: A simple thank you
 

Ive seen those comments in the newsGroups. Put next to the comments here from people saying they got their copy in the mail in about 24 hours I guess does make the DD push not quite as preferable as it first appears to be.

Re: A simple thank you
 

My understanding is that he is talking about complex game as a game with complex gameplay, not with complex underlying code. I'm sure that Morrowind or MMRPG or Online 3D shooter have complex code inside, but the end user doesn't care about it, for him it only matters how complex is it to play the game.

Well, it depends how one defines "work". True, they sold a lot of copies through the retail. But they didn't get paid for those copies. Read Brad's comments here: http://draginol.joeuser.com/index.asp?c=1&AID=21895

Re: A simple thank you
 

I doubt that major publisher would do any good to Dominions. Just imagine what kind of publicity it would get: Mr. Casual Gamer comes in the local shop and start browsing. He knows that if the game title doesn't end with 2, 3 or better 4, it's surely some buggy and boring game. He sees nice Dominion 3 box. 3 is good! He examines the box: ... 25 nations - that's really great! ... you will be playing a God - wow, that's cool. He rushes home and installs the game. But where's 30 minutes introduction movie? And where are 4D graphics?? And how does one actually starts the game? Some time later gamer's army of elite knights gets demolished by a horder of undead spirits. AI is cheating!!! He couldn't get so many units fairly! And why mosquitoes on the battlefield don't have shadows?! Totally unrealistic!

Next game he brings the game back to the store with appropriate comments.

Whole thing will probably create a bad press and drive the price down while the increase in sales won't be significant. It's highly unlikely that somebody will enjoy Dominions as their first strategy games. The market for Dominions seems to be experienced strategy players who mastered simpler titles, and those people are usually watching for promising titles, visit newsGroups and forums, so that they're likely to find Dominions anyway.

Re: A simple thank you
 

Thank you very much for posting that link! While it's the opposite of your intention, you actually backed up my position(s):

That article pretty well slams SF for not paying Stardock for GalCiv's retail sales, it also mentions that they intend to release their next game by both download and retail (via Ubisoft as a publisher). So Stardock, in spite of its bad experience with SF apparently still believes that retail has some merit, else why would they give it a third try? Perhaps the retail sales figures showed them that they *would* have gotten a decent amount of money were it not for the exception of making a mistake in choosing their publisher? I can only hope that Ubisoft treats them better than SF did (they can hardly do worse).

The article also conclusively states that Stardock (1.) doesn't have a significant problem with piracy from digital downloads, and (2.) is showing a healthy profit (or at least paying all their bills) by going that route.

Brad also answers the "question" regarding console vs. PC games:
Basically, it's the developers/publishers releasing shoddy, half-finished games (knowing that they can finish it after release by providing patches) that he says is killing the PC market.

His concluding paragraph bears repeating:

Re: A simple thank you
 

I ask once again could you please briefly say a few "behind the scenes" victoria things to back up your claim ? This takes you not more than 5 minutes and normally you like to prove me wrong anyways http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif .

Re: A simple thank you
 

1. Actually, it would take me more than 5 minutes.

2. I told you this isn't the proper place.

3. I have no desire to waste more of my time trying to educate you on this (or any other matter). I mentioned that in another thread a while back.

4. Trying to goad me into it won't work (for you, or anyone else). In spite of any mistaken belief to the contrary (based upon my past behavior) that you, Zen, or Archaeolept may have. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: A simple thank you
 

me? what did I do? :O


;-)

I mean, i didn't much care for battlecruiser 3000 i guess...

;P

Re: A simple thank you
 

Just checking to see if you're awake. In answer to your semi-rhetorical question: Nothing *this* time. Call it an application of the Bush Doctrine (a preemptive strike). I'm trying to put to rest the notion that I'm easy (with respect to getting a rise out of me).

Tag, you're it ...