WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

I am wondering about the mechanics of these spells: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt.

The settting: In an ongoing MP-game I am troubled by sneaking armies (mainly not-so-immortal-anymore vampires), which play hide&seek in my righteously newly acquired provinces. I chase them around but achieve nothing save instigating my own popluation.
Ok, I want to play the game for myself, so I dont want other hints how to deal with those hideous thugs, but I wonder why the methods employed failed so far:

-WindRide: In its description it says that EarthMages and big creatures are likely to be impossible to lift, yet VampireLords are size 2 and have no knowledge in earth magic, but still wont get wind-ridden after they have revealed themselves by attacking. Why? I think my spells should come first before they are able to hide and sneak away again? Right or wrong?

Searching the forum, I have found someone mentioning that Etherealness is also good for stopping WindRide? Why? Or how could I know this, save from the flavour of Etherealness? Are they immune or is it just unlikely? (I tried 8 times so far. This cost more than its worth!) Do those Magic Penetration Amulets that I already use affect the chances for these ritual-spells at all?
Also, what are the rough chances for WindRide with respect to Size and EarthMagic? (e.g. is it already almost hopeless to target size 4 creatures?, etc.)

-CloudTrapeze: CloudTrapezing onto the sneaking thugs, just after they unhid themselves by attacking, didnt work either, for the thugs were ordered to retreat. What I wonder though is what happens to those retreating thugs orders? They retreat during the magic-phase, so would they carry out their orders after the retreat if they can? Are they even capable of still moving, provided that their former destination is still within reach?
(Btw, just for completemess anout these spells: I was also reminded that CloudTrapezing is good to reinforce besieged forces, but bad for attacking siegers... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

-MindHunt: Are mindless creatures immune to MindHunt? Or is the only defense an astral mage?

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Depends on the spell. IIRC Wind Ride works on sneakers (I may be wrong), while some other rituals (eg, Seeking Arrow) don't.

Try WR-ing one of your own ethereal commanders, the reason why is fully explained in the message you'll get - something along the lines "the attempt was unsuccesful because the whirlwind couldn't get any hold on the incorporeal commander".

Immune.

No effect on Wind Ride (this isn't a 'resistable' spell - one of those that reads 'magic resistance negates').

Earth @4 should make you immune.

Not sure about size - for some time I believed size 6 was required to get WR immunity, but now I think it's more dependent on HPs than size, or it has changed since the time I tested it. Eg, I remember WR-ing size 4 Jotun Herses (that was in Dom 1), but the size 4 hero Bogus is unaffected by the spell.

By 'retreat', I assume you mean they sneaked away to an adjacent province? If so, your Last statement is wrong: they 'retreat' (move) during the normal phase. They were still here when you Trapezed in, only you didn't see them.

Which orders? When you order a stealthy commander to 'sneak', he will hardly do anything but 'hide' on arrival.

Sure they can.

Yes. Or at least, they should be.

Or high MR. Or Domes.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Great!!! That means I just wasted all those precious Air Gems for nothing! When casting it on enemy commanders, I just got the report saying: "XYZ has cast wind ride." Nothing more... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif And why should I ever try it on my own if I can cloud trapeze anyway...

No! I meant retreat from the battle that occurred due to CloudTrapezing onto the thugs: The CloudTrapeze triggered a Battle, but my opponent might have forseen something like that, thus his armies where ordered to retreat via tactical army setup orders (which he can do, since its the turn after the attack of the previously hidden sneaking thugs).

Thus the battle occurs before the thugs could carry out their own ordinary strategical non-battle orders (provided that they are not casting a spell themselves), but they moved thereby to an adjacent province before the normal movement phase. So what can they do in the normal phase after that combat?

Example: Hideous Hillary is unhidden in province X, ordered to sneak to province Y. Now magically mighty Mike CloudTrapezes onto Hillary in province X and a battle happens at X, but Hillary retreats from the battle to province Z (by any reason, maybe rout). So we know that Z must belong to Hillary's employer. If Y=Z will she be hidden or be visible; and if not, will she still sneak to Y if Z is adjacent to Y? I assume that Hillary will sit unhidden in Z defending it, but I am not sure and this game is obviously full of surprise!

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Anyway, thanks for your quite helpful insights so far! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

heh lol. well, your oppponent just needlessly lost his troops (unless he actually had someplace to retreat to) when instead he could just have set his troops to sneak or hide, which would have immediately made them hidden to your cloud trapezing units.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

No, they had a place to retreat and are still wreaking havoc upon me...

BUT you say that stealth troops cannot be nailed down by cloud trapeze, for they hide even before cloud trapezers may arrive? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif So this is also an unusable option to catch stealthy skirmishers?

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

yup. stealth is a real pain.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

The trick is to try and catch them in the same turn as their attack. If there are 4 possible provinces he might attack next to the one he just took, then try to attack all 4 at once.

Build an independent force in the area and have it move to one of them.
Trapeze to another
Do something like Ghost Riders or Call of the Wind or Call of the Wild to others.
Especially, the provinces he just took from you.

Yes some of those are pretty weak. But all you need is to own it when his unit tries to retreat.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

I wrote that I do not want to discuss strategies since its an ongoing MP-Game, and discussing strategies is thus cheating. All I want is to know the technical details about sneaking and spell-casting to save myself the simple but time consuming task of testing...

Nevertheless:
If it would only ever be just four provinces! Vampires tend to fly, which gives them incredible reach, and even if I would guess right it would avail nothing, for the forces must wait a turn before they can start patrolling to catch the vampire lads which sneak on every other turn. This is like playing that old ScotlandYard-Boardgame: Sometimes they pop up somewhere, you now that they took the plane meanwhile for travelling but declined all free WindRides... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif ...Vampires are a nightmare, and the best defence I can think of right now is...(sorry, my enemy is listening http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

But another technical question: Is a pretender god still alive if he only has his dominion and some hidden stealth units including himself (or herself in the case of that bloody vampire *****)? Or will she vanish just because of having not a single province for just a single turn?

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

How is it cheating to discuss strategies for an ongoing game?

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

IIRC there is a decreasing likelyhood to get windrode from size 4 to 6, where you are immune at size 6.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif A chess player is not allowed to discuss his strategy in ongoing games as well (well, I dont know about PBEM), but Dom2 is also a strategy game, isnt it? Of course, I do follow this board closely to learn, but I dont want to ask others for help in a pretty specific gaming situation, since it wouldnt be my game anymore. Its devising my own hideous schemes that is most of the fun. All super-evil villains are always so proud of their schemes, which is why they tell them to every hero at every opportunity. It would ruin the whole plot if the super-evil villain would just have stolen his plans how to take over the world from a mere internet forum board... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
(do not take me too serious)

But on the other hand it really bugs me that I have made an idiot of myself by stating here that I've repeatedly tried to wind ride enemy ethereal commanders! Luckily I avoided trying that ethereal vampire queen that even had some knowledge in earth magic. It could have been worse though: Are there any size 6 ethereal units with 4 levels earth magic? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Good to know about the sizes now - this gives me some hope to try that spell in another game again...

Question about Mechanics again: Does WindRide/CloudTrapeze work on target sea provinces? I would expect that one could CloudTrapeze into a sea province, but not from an underwater lab and vice versa for WindRide, i.e. commanders underneath the waves are also save from wind ride, arent they?

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Yep. Cyclops pretender with Robe of Shadows. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif ( Hey, I have one in one of my games - when you have a base 29 protection most other armors seem less useful. )

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Aren't Cykes size 5? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

heh yup - but you could just sub in his elder brother, a tartarian cyclops w/ a robe of shadows. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

I'd rather give my vote to a Void Lurker with added Earth magic. Innate etherealness, size 6, and aquatic - if you're really paranoid about Wind Ride, this one is for you! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

So water is indeed a hindrance as well... [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Hm? Odd. Why would a Tartarian Cyclops be larger than a living Cyclops?

(Yeah, unless it's a juvenile. If somebody now points to a mod in numerous units have been replaced with juvvies, I'd be mildly disturbed. Well, more than I already am.)

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Dead bodies grow bigger than live bodies, as the gases caused by internal decay cause them to swell, thus becoming larger than the living Versions. Given the right conditions, they can also explode, becoming substantially broader and longer (and even expanding to the cielings) while also thinner. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

That's not so. Such process is only relivent to the contained stomach area in appropriate conditions AFAIK.


The floating to the ceiling and explosition is a joke, I think. Although I did read about bodies of some very large animals (such as elephants) leaved on the sun, exploding because of gases. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/eek.gif


In general though dead bodies shrinks pretty quickly after the death, mostly due to dehydration process. BTW that's where urban legends about "corpses which keep growing nails and hair after death" came from. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/rant.gif


Your local Morte expert,
Stormbinder http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

That's at least compatible with what I know about death & decay in the other world...
(Edit:
)

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I do indeed enjoy amusing off-topic conversations, but there is still an unanswered question of mine remaining: http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Doeas a pretender still remain within the ascension race, if she doesnt own any provinces by herself anymore, but nevertheless has dominion over some provinces as well as commanding some hidden troops (including herself if that matters)?

(i.e. is it worth the trouble to recapture all the province those savage sneakers snatch immediately and thus threatening a quick wipe-out so that they cannot hide every other turn?)

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Heh. Sounds yaky. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/Sick.gif

But you can also dig up info on the net about dead bodies shrinking due to dehydration, perhaps even on wikipedia. Swelling and shrinking at the same time is a bit hard to combine, isn't it? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Maybe some body parts shrink and some swell?


Also you have to keep in mind that even if some parts of the body are swelling, it will likely to continue only until the body tissues and skin hold their integrity, otherwise the inner gases that are created due to decompression process would not be contained inside the body, especialy if they are indeed building pressure that would fasten their release.


Finally the vampire's "fountain of blood" explanation seem a bit stretched to me. If body have been dead for a long time, enough to build this "innner pressure", wouldn't the blood stop being in liquid form do to after-death coagulation process?

Ok, I think I should put these matters out of my head for now, or I may have difficulties eating my breakfast. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif


Answering your question about pretender - I don't think so. ASAICT when your Last province fall, you will join all dead Gods in the Oblivion. There will be no return due to your Last desperate followers sneaking around, hoping to conquer some faraway province and use it as a Last heaven for their forbidden Deity.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

With good dominion and a living pretender, I was banished when my Last province fell - the pretender was in stealth mode, about to snag another province, but game over for me.

So yes - it can be very worthwhile to nail the provinces to eliminate them.

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

Cool! Up, up, my blizzard warriors: High ho, high ho, up in the air we go! :battlescream:

(err, this forum is lacking an important emoticon!)

Re: WindRide, CloudTrapeze and MindHunt???
 

You mean something that would display the large flock of frozen chickens rising up from the ground? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif