OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

http://badnarik.org/newsfromthetrail.php?p=1346
Some democratic process, huh?

apologies to whoever wrote this song:
I'm ashamed to be an American
Where I'll only dream to be free
I'd like to kill the men who tried
And took that right from me
But let's stand up proud and strong
And defend LIBERTY today
I'm ashamed to be an American
God DAMN the USA!!!!! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Interesting.

Off Topic:
I was just watching MSNBC and they did a story on this report that came out Friday. Evidently the reason why the French, Russians, and Chinese did not want to support the Iraq conflcit was because they had been effectively bought off.

The truth finally came out. This is just really really sad.

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Sure, it's all their fault (France, China, Russia)! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

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Hey Atrocities... you have 8472 Posts! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

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OT on an OT thread. 5 demerits!

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As oppossed to the USA who was bought in. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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I am just saying its sad what happened. Thats all.

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guess thats better than illegally invading and conquering a country http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

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Nevertheless, their attempts to change the laws should have been entirely legal. I might not always say that when I'm angry, but it's what's right, so that nobody can say that their campain has a stain.

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Are we upset that France and Russia were bought by Iraq, or that the US was outbid? Maybe if we hadn't thrown so much money at Turkey we could have made a better offer for those other countries.

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So who is this guy? I never heard of him http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

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Be fair, he's doing his very best, he got arrested with much noteriety didn't he?

To wax philosopical a moment...what if someone tried civil disobedience, and the powers in charge didn't fall for it? Just let it happen. Wouldn't that be cool? When I take my rightful place as supreme ruler of the world, I'll hire some good stand-up commedians to write me some very funny, snappy come-backs to any people trying to get themselves arrested just to make a point.

To take it to an absurd level. If Satan was a real badass, wouldn't he have instead gotten Jesus Christ a real good Roman defence lawyer? Picture it:

"Do what must be done, as was ordained from the begining of time"
"Aww, that's alright. Just go on home"
"Huh-wha..."
"C'mon. Scoot on home"
"But I will destroy the temple, and ..."
"Yes. Yes. You will, I'm sure."
"But wait, the world won't be saved unless I die ..."
"Yes, that's tough luck for everybody, isn't it"

P.S. Please don't start a flamewar 'cause I got all religious on everybody. I'm just kidding. I'm not ultra fundie-Christian, or anti-Christian. I just think about stuff like this all the time.

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Quite interesting. Just another prove why dont like america in general. No offense !!

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That IS one way to get you name in the paper...however in the role he is trying for that IS NOT the way to go..."I did not inhale"...yea right! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/yawn.gif

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Micheal Badnarik is the presidential candidate for the Libertarian Party, which is IIRC the second largest "3rd party" in the US, after the Green Party. It is just saddening that so many people are unaware of anyone besides the 2 big evils (and often the Green Party)...

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Actually there are something like 7 candidates. CNN showed the other 5 guys. Some people can name 3 candidates but most only know the 2 big ones. They can be candidates but not have enough signatures to be "on the ballot". One party has a vice-pres candidate with no pres which is a choice option many dont consider. I would love to see that someday. YEAH Kerry and Chenney!

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

He got in the papers because the Commission on Presidential Debates set up a police barricade between themselves and the public. Badnarik was acting on behalf of the Arizona Superior Court, by attempting to serve the CPD with an order to appear before the Court. Attempts to serve the CPD at both the debates in St. Louis and at their offices in Washington DC were resisted. So, in effect, they are protesting that the US Government has created an entity that ensures that only Democrats and Republicans have a say in national debates, ignoring all other parties. By trying to serve the CPD with a court order, he was arrested and sent to a medium security prison (rather than the closer city or county jail that one would expect) for doing nothing more than crossing a line while trying to carry out a court order. I think that's the BEST way for him to get in the papers (which he hasn't really, since just about every news outlet has completely ignored the event) -- by fighting against the absurdities within our current government.

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From the sounds of the article, crossing the police line was a seperate protest from the papers served?

Civil Disobedience...
 

Civil Disobedience is an American tradition. What do you think the Boston Tea Party was? (well, vandalism and breaking & entering too, but that was an extreme case)

Civil rights in America only happened because of massive civil disobedience. Ever heard of Selma? Remember Rosa Parks?

If it were not for civil disobedience, black americans would still be sitting in the back of the bus.

But I\'m torn
 

Getting Bushboy Jr out of the White House before he ruins America is important. Important enough to make me hold my nose and vote for Kerry.

But I'd really like to vote Libertarian.

For the record, I voted for Buchanan in 2000, and voted Libertarian the 2 elections before that.

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We should start our own party, call it the GEEK party and what our ranks grow.

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What you americans need is a revolution. You got the guns, now go out and use 'em. Power to the People!

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I agree... I'm just not the one to start that kind of thing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

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Smart man. Of the men who signed the Declaration of Independence in 1776, less than a third were still alive when the war ended in 1783.

Some died of old age and natural causes, but most died of rope burns around their necks. The british were not very forgiving of rebellion, and neither is the US government today.

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I am not sure why I am responding to some of this dribble, yes I am, anger. The US of A is a geat nation liberating more people through out this world than all the other nations combined. Be very careful what some of you seemingly ill informed posters are wishing for. Pick a BETTER country. Remember, friends don't let friends vote democratic.

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The US has it's faults. This thread is about one of them.

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Please be more respectful of other people's viewpoints in the future. Just because they do not agree with your politics does not mean that what they say is "dribble."

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Which was also the claim of England, and Russia, and even Germany in its heyday. Of course, it depends on your concept of liberation. Now people are trying to liberate countries from the US. Crossing another nations borders to liberate them can be a dangerous concept if not done carefully.

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Okay first off I'm a boy from the USA so to the God Damn the USA line I have a big UP YOURS!!! from the USA jerkoff....especially because if you weren't free your dumbass would be in jail for bashing your government.

NOW on to the Civil Disobedience bit there, face it Anti-War Protesters fall under civil disobedience because they are usually a royal pain in the *** that block streets and generally cause a headache wherever they go with all their "Sadam wasn't so bad" and "Bin Laden's a Nice Guy....REALLY" crap so don't even get me started on making it sound like the American Government is a FACIST party sort of deal.....especially because I DON'T LIKE THE GREEN PARY :p

BTW AMERICA IS NOT A FRIGGIN DEMOCRACY look up your history we are a Republic which means "LIMITED POWER TO THE PEOPLE!" you know why? Because unlike Athens where a voice for every man and a man for every voice we have a population of over 300 MILLION (and that's just the legal ones) so a true democracy where eveyone gets to do what they want would be anarchy.....and Civil Disobedience has to be shut down SOMEWHERE especially because those dumb greenparty and Libertarians WANTED TO BE ARRESTED and I'm sure we are only getting their "We are so martyrs!" side of this story.

Oh and under most state laws CROSSING A POLICE LINE IS ILLEGAL! no matter who you are and so they deserved to get their arses busted for that dumb move......so don't even make them sound like poor little angels who were jumped by the Government SS troopers (Stormtroopers were friggin soldiers ELITE GERMAN soldiers who stormed Trenches during WWI so please stop referring to every facist like police force as stormtroopers as they would be closer to the "Gaurd" branch of the SS and NOT even the Wauffin (Field corps) SS)

Anywhoo Gandalf my boy to your little quote

"Which was also the claim of England, and Russia, and even Germany in its heyday. Of course, it depends on your concept of liberation. Now people are trying to liberate countries from the US. Crossing another nations borders to liberate them can be a dangerous concept if not done carefully."

England was trying to "civilize" the world NOT liberate it, the countries they conquered they occupied and established as tax paying provinces (AND DON'T EVEN CLAIM THE US HAS PROVINCES OR I WILL BEAT YOU WITH A STICK :p) and not simply trade partners.
Germany! fah they were trying to "liberate" their "Aryan brothers" not impoverished countries run by dictators who were responsible for OVER A MILLION DEATHS in the course of their reign many tens of thousands of which being at the hands of said dictators secret police force (and their sons who just decided to rape women for the hell of it).
Why the HECK does a country like the US trying to free these people get treated like it's doing something wrong, maybe those big bad European powers should show more concern for the world outside their borders as well and start HELPING rid the world of dictators for a change. WHY THE HECK does getting rid of a freakin dictator now a days become a BAD THING. think about a world with no dictators? Wouldn't that be great.....

And RUSSIA "liberating" their neighbors from rival empires was land grabbing that's all, they too occupied said nations and turned them into paying provinces with no independant government or anything of that sort.


Now moving onto your remark on those terrorist scum crossing the borders to "liberate" Iraq from the US LIBERATION IS NOT THEIR INTENT! they simply want to kill as man servants of "The Great Satan" as they can else wise they would actually try to defeat the army and not just kill women children and their own "Islamic brothers" without discression....that is not LIBERATION by ANY definition.....

Sorry for any spelling errors but I had a total of 3 hours of sleep Last night and political BS like this pisses me off when people don't bother trying to get a second viewpoint into the picture.

YES America has it's flaws but we are also the Strongest, and I have to say most FREE nation on earth and people need to learn to appreciate that freedom and that greatness and their heritage with respect and not try to make our government sound like a damned fascist state.

HELL we have MORE rights then our American ancestors I meam look at the "civil rights" of everyone during the Civil War era....sorry that wasn't that good as only the elites could afford to vote on anything.....anyway I'm too tired to say anything else....sorry for the excessive cussing but I DON'T LIKE MY COUNTRY being bashed....especially by people who don't friggin live here like you limeys in the group :p

Edited for unnecessary rudeness

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http://www.sharedvoice.org/unamerican/

Starhawk, please edit out some of your drugatory words, they are not needed here.

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Oh and this deserves a seperate post:

Democracy DOES NOT WORK for the long term even Republics have not Lasted and most of those throughout history have fallen do to dumbass citizens who pulled so much crap that they were eventually brought under an iron grip because they were seen as too stupid or anarchy ridden to rule themselves. not acusing anyone Here of this (cept Ed)
Either that or they have been conquered by a nation that is unified through force and pretty much shoots anti-war types and makes dissenters disapear.
The United States is the oldest surviving Republic and the most powerful nation in the world so I'm sorry but we must be doing something right....(not to mention that we get the HIGHEST friggin immigration rates of any country on earth) so for all you "US is evil" folks maybe you should think about your own government first......because I can say plenty of things that England has done crappy throughout their history, and Germany, and Russia, and France and EVERY DANG COUNTRY ON EARTH!.

Now I am saying that until hopefully someday something better then both the current "Democracies" (and that means ALL of THEM) and the current "Iron Grip" regimes comes along I WILL GO FOR the American "Democracy" any day....thank you.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

"No....though for some of them I'll say sorry.....I'm tired so I'm a litle testy...sorry......cept for my remarks toward Ed those stand.

I am an advocate of peace don't get me wrong, but as the old saying goes for the country that choses they aren't going to learn war anymore they will be crushed under the boot of those who still learned war.

And again that song is biased they don't exactly give you both views so sorry I don't like biased views like that either.....especially SINCE WE ARE NOT proffiting from the damned war in Iraq....in fact it's COSTING US MONEY....oy.

Like I said USA is far from perfect but it is the better choice out of any other country around."

Oh and my oppinion of Kerry is that he is a flipflopping jackass who wants to win on his "I won three purple hearts!" line.....so BFD my Great Uncle DIED in Nam after staying for two tours and getting hit twice....Kerry got pissant wounds (not even enough to send him home for God's sake or keep him in hospital for more then a few days) and went home after 4 months after writing his own report to make himself a hero......yeah I don't want that guy in office I'm sorry.

Now I'm going back to making my mod and hopefully making people happy with it.....and other fun stuff here.
I like most of you guys so as I said to most of you sorry for getting testy it's just US bashers piss me off especially when hey never point out the flaws of their own countries first and instead focus on us.
Now anyway this is likely my Last post in this thread so http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif cya'll in the more lightheared and fun threads.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested! *DELETED*
 

Post deleted by Gandalf Parker

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

By the way... as far as US territorys...
American Samoa
Federated States of Micronesia
Guam
Marshall Islands
Northern Mariana Islands
Puerto Rico
Palau
Virgin Islands
and until recently the Phillipines

just to name a few. Yes they are territorys. Their citizens can serve US military and they pay US taxes. They have no state rights and cannot vote in elections. This is not propaganda. The US fully acknowledges them as US provinces and always has even though most americans arent much aware of them.


Do you not see that as kindof an opinion? Im not saying that you arent correct but surely you see where the same COULD be said about the US by others. Doesnt mean its true but secret police, atrocities, and freeing someone from one form of government to another should surely sound familiar.

Generally any country crossing into another because they dont like who is in charge has been frowned on. Even when its done for the right reasons it hasnt been liked because someone is bound to disagree with who was chosen and why. Often not the first one, but the second or the third such choice. They all gradually get more and more questionable in the eyes of others.

Again kindof point of view. If you check the list of US territories you find that most of them were areas we occupied after a war for the purpose of helping them recover. And we are still in most of them. To some that would be "spoils of war". Im sure there are good reasons for it, Im just pointing out that the same facts can be worded different ways depending on who is doing the wording.

Wow. Where to begin. You dont expect that to sit as a "fact" do you? The way you worded it? Thats what they are doing and how they see it?

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As far as I was aware Puerto Rico does not pay taxes.

As for US military service anyone can join the US military (as you can gain citizenship through service) so that's not a big deal that these territories can.

A brief bit about the FSM
"In 1979 the Federated States of Micronesia, a UN Trust Territory under US administration, adopted a constitution. In 1986 independence was attained under a Compact of Free Association with the US. Present concerns include large-scale unemployment, overfishing, and overdependence on US aid. "
Not a province as they are not a US territory they are an independent nation.


Wee bit about American Samoa (yeah it's a teritory):

This is a traditional Polynesian economy in which more than 90% of the land is communally owned. Economic activity is strongly linked to the US, with which American Samoa conducts most of its foreign trade. Tuna fishing and tuna processing plants are the backbone of the private sector, with canned tuna the primary export. Transfers from the US Government add substantially to American Samoa's economic well-being. Attempts by the government to develop a larger and broader economy are restrained by Samoa's remote location, its limited transportation, and its devastating hurricanes. Tourism, a developing sector, has been held back by the recurring financial difficulties in East Asia.

They don't pay taxes to us they do however have trade tariffs.

Guam (US Territory no independence)

The economy depends on US military spending, tourism, and the export of fish and handicrafts. Total US grants, wage payments, and procurement outlays amounted to $1 billion in 1998. Over the past 20 years, the tourist industry has grown rapidly, creating a construction boom for new hotels and the expansion of older ones. More than 1 million tourists visit Guam each year. The industry has recently suffered setbacks because of the continuing Japanese slowdown; the Japanese normally make up almost 90% of the tourists. Most food and industrial goods are imported. Guam faces the problem of building up the civilian economic sector to offset the impact of military downsizing.

again sounds like we give them money no mention of taxes being paid.

The Marshall Islands are actually independant:
21 October 1986 (from the US-administered UN trusteeship)

A little on their economy:
US Government assistance is the mainstay of this tiny island economy. Agricultural production is primarily subsistence and is concentrated on small farms; the most important commercial crops are coconuts and breadfruit. Small-scale industry is limited to handicrafts, tuna processing, and copra. The tourist industry, now a small source of foreign exchange employing less than 10% of the labor force, remains the best hope for future added income. The islands have few natural resources, and imports far exceed exports. Under the terms of the Compact of Free Association, the US has provided more than $1 billion in aid since 1986. Negotiations have continued for an extended agreement. Government downsizing, drought, a drop in construction, the decline in tourism and foreign investment due to the Asian financial difficulties, and less income from the renewal of fishing vessel licenses have held GDP growth to an average of 1% over the past decade.

Northern Mariana Islands:
Govermant status: commonwealth in political union with the US; federal funds to the Commonwealth administered by the US Department of the Interior, Office of Insular Affairs

Government type: commonwealth; self-governing with locally elected governor, lieutenant governor, and legislature

Economic status:
The economy benefits substantially from financial assistance from the US. The rate of funding has declined as locally generated government revenues have grown. The key tourist industry employs about 50% of the work force and accounts for roughly one-fourth of GDP. Japanese tourists predominate. Annual tourist entries have exceeded one-half million in recent years, but financial difficulties in Japan have caused a temporary slowdown. The agricultural sector is made up of cattle ranches and small farms producing coconuts, breadfruit, tomatoes, and melons. Garment production is by far the most important industry with employment of 17,500 mostly Chinese workers and sizable shipments to the US under duty and quota exemptions.

Palau:
Independence was given: 1 October 1994 (from the US-administered UN Trusteeship

Economic State:
The economy consists primarily of tourism, subsistence agriculture and fishing. The government is the major employer of the work force, relying heavily on financial assistance from the US. Business and tourist arrivals numbered 50,000 in FY00/01. The population enjoys a per capita income twice that of the Philippines and much of Micronesia. Long-run prospects for the key tourist sector have been greatly bolstered by the expansion of air travel in the Pacific, the rising prosperity of leading East Asian countries, and the willingness of foreigners to finance infrastructure development.

Puerto Rico
Status: Commonwealth

Economic Status:
Puerto Rico has one of the most dynamic economies in the Caribbean region. A diverse industrial sector has far surpassed agriculture as the primary locus of economic activity and income. Encouraged by duty-free access to the US and by tax incentives, US firms have invested heavily in Puerto Rico since the 1950s. US minimum wage laws apply. Sugar production has lost out to dairy production and other livestock products as the main source of income in the agricultural sector. Tourism has traditionally been an important source of income, with estimated arrivals of nearly 5 million tourists in 1999. Growth fell off in 2001-03, largely due to the slowdown in the US economy.

Virgin Islands:
Status: Unincorporated Territory

Economic State:
Tourism is the primary economic activity, accounting for 80% of GDP and employment. The islands normally host 2 million visitors a year. The manufacturing sector consists of petroleum refining, textiles, electronics, pharmaceuticals, and watch assembly. The agricultural sector is small, with most food being imported. International business and financial services are a small but growing component of the economy. One of the world's largest petroleum refineries is at Saint Croix. The islands are subject to substantial damage from storms. The government is working to improve fiscal discipline, to support construction projects in the private sector, to expand tourist facilities, to reduce crime, and to protect the environment.

So a few of the territories you listed are out of date as they are now independent. I'm still looking for their tax paying status.


Though I do suppose you are right about your views on "Liberation" vs "occupation" being a point of view. But if you look at it the US still hasn't fully "rebuilt" many of those territories to where they could function as seperate states as many of them are too poor to function on their own without soon becoming 3rd world nations.

And yeah the fact that the terrorists are scum is kind of a wild opinion that is strictly POV based as I am sure they beleive they are holy warriors and justified.....though I still say they are scum as I'm sure many do.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Hmmmmmm OK that would be a fact. Although the wording of that and the fact that it takes so long for these nations to find a form of government acceptable for independance, is something that people like to look at. I remember the comparisons between these and the Russian countries that we kept calling "satellite not-really-free nations".

Yes I noticed that after I posted it and went to get the source (www.cia.gov/cia/publications/factbook/).
Palua was freed. Nice thing of Clinton. Looks like the only one though. I lost the full list of american governed non-US territorys but thats OK, the point is still made. US does have provinces.

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To Starhawk:
I believe fully in the principles in which the USA was founded. However, the USA today is based on the OPPOSITE of those principles - we have BECOME the Tories, and IMHO it's time for another rebellion! I'm just not the one to lead such a thing... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

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Ever hear of a positive change instead of jumping right into the flag burning government bashing militant?

Sorry but you'll still not get me to agree with you on anything you say as long as you don't even attempt to seek any positive ways of changing things....right now you just sound like a hicksville (I'm from the south so I REALLY don't like the hick stereotype so don't try to sound like it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif) militia nut who wants to lead a revolution that would get creamed in an hour because there are too many people who are happy with the government and don't want people like you or with your viewpoint ruling this or any other country.

To Gandalf yeah we do have territories like I said though it seems they cost us money and give us little in return when I say province I mean taxed (as in we get more mone from them then we spend on them) territory that has the choice of either paying or getting creamed by an invasion force ala British Empire http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

There is a difference between a territory and a province as far as I'm aware though I could be caught up in semantics there.... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Where to begin... there's so much.

First off, Starhawk... we're serious when we say please tone down your Posts. The SEIV Forums will not tolerate extended ad hominem attacks, flames, etc.

The argument about war profiteering isn't about the US gaining or losing money. It's about the military/industrial complex corporations profitting on an enormous scale because of the war, to the detriment of the rest of the economy. The profits are going to Halliburton, BAE, Saab Missiles, United Defense, Carlyle Group, Glock, Bofors Defense, Boeing, Northrup Grumman, etc, etc... These also happen to be the corporate Groups that own the most politicians...

As for all the comments on the "US bashers", "US haters", "flag burners", and so on. The strength of the United States comes from the fact that its citizens CAN dissent. If there is ever a time when there is no dissent, then I will be very, very afraid... because that will mean that the US is truly no longer a free country. All of your comments, which you seem to indicate are directed at Ed Kolis, are completely false over-reactions, the typical frenzied oversimplifications that drive the radical nutjobs on both ends of the political spectrum. People who are generally high on rhetoric and righteousness, and low on critical thinking skills. Examples:

• the Republican mailings in, IIRC, West Virginia, which say that "the liberals" want to ban the Bible and legalize gay marriage... only half of which is sometimes true
• the "think of the children!" Groups, which seem to use that one argument to justify anything under the sun
• Groups such as PETA, who semi-regularly break into labs, dump fake blood on people, all in the name of treating animals fairly
• Bill O'Reily, Rush Limbaugh, Matt Drudge, Ann Coulter (on that Last one, I can't believe anyone sane would really believe that Sen. McCarthy and the communist witchhunts were really a Good Thing)
• the environmental group that firebomed a few hundred SUVs a while ago (six months?)
• Timothy McVeigh, John Mohammed/John Lee Malvo, Osama bin Laden

All those Groups are guilty of mischaracterizing people they don't agree with, some to a much higher degree than others. Don't make their mistake, please.

As for the whole "liberation of Iraq" thing, I have to wonder if the countries we have "liberated" really are better off now. Afghanistan (which we ignored soon after invading and focus went to an Iraq which was all bark/no bite) went from the centralized, organizing... and oppressive... rule of the Taliban, to a short period of rule by an occupying US force, then degenerated into various territories held by warlords, and is in many ways just as bad or worse than before we invaded. The "provisional government" in Afghanistan is a joke, the only power they have is that of the few US troops we left there. In Iraq, we went in because of a supposed threat of Saddam either giving weapons to terrorists, or not having good enough security to prevent terrorists from taking weapons. We find in hindsight that there were no weapons, that analysts were pressured to conclude that Iraq probably had weapons, based only on Iraqi bravado which was meant to keep Saddam's enemies throughout the Middle East at bay. We removed a dictatorship again, and replaced it with chaos again, as we didn't put in enough resources to keep the area stable. We also removed the biggest asset the US had in the Arab world to hold the power of fundamentalist Islamic Groups in check. While Saddam was not our ally, he was a major reason why militant Groups were not forming in the Middle East as quickly or efficiently as they could have, since they were a threat to his secular state. So, based on very bad decisions that no one is living up to, we have two occupied countries that we screwed up, billions of dollars of the economy going to war instead of back into strenghening the economy, 1000+ soldiers dead, 6000+ soldiers wounded, and the biggest recruitment fair terrorist organizations could have hoped for. Wonderful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif

Now, all this terrible stuff has happened because of the hawkish policies of the current administration, and the "shoot first, ask questions later" type of personality the President seems to prefer. And you're calling into question the motives of those who are criticizing this government? The simple thing is, this government needs to change, and as I believe was already said by Atrocities on these Boards before, it needs to change through one of four boxes, in the following order: soap, ballot, jury, ammo. This is the soap box. The ballot box for me is in the mail right now (absentee ballot). I can't really sit on a jury with enough power to change much in the government (SCotUS is pretty much the only one with that power). And, if it comes to it, I may go to the ammo box. But unlike this administration, I have some patience before I will put my finger on the trigger, and even more patience before I actually pull it.

Oh, and on Kerry's "flip-flopping": How can Kerry be changing positions all the time, yet be more liberal than Ted Kennedy, as the Bush campaign claims? And why does changing opinions based on new data constitute a character flaw (I thought bull-headed stubornness was supposed to be the vice)? And what about Bush's flip-flopping? Steel tarrifs, not taking money from Medicare/Social Security, the Department of Homeland Security... hypocrites.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Oh, please. This has nothing to do with Iraq or crossing police lines. It's about the US government only letting two parties into the official debates. That is a fault. If you do not like it, feel free to stick your head back in the ground.

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Starhawk, I'll not comment, I'll just provide the info below...and ask you to read it with an open mind. Not my words.

(source linked at end)

Even if they don't like to say it out loud, lots of Democrats think that George Bush's supporters are a horde of ignoramuses. Now comes evidence that they're right! A remarkable new report, titled "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters," from PIPA, the Program on International Policy Attitudes at the University of Maryland, suggests that rank and file Republicans are more benighted than even the most supercilious coastal elitist would imagine. (link mentioned:
http://www.pipa.org/OnlineReports/Pr..._21_04.html#1)

Analyzing data from a series of nationwide polls, the report finds that a majority of Bush supporters believe things about the world that are objectively untrue, while the majority of Kerry supporters dwell in the reality-based community. For example, Bush backers largely think that the president and his policies are popular internationally. Seventy-five percent believe that Iraq was providing "substantial" aid to al-Qaida, and 63 percent say clear evidence of this has been found. That, of course, would be news even to Donald Rumsfeld, who earlier this month told the Council on Foreign Relations, "To my knowledge, I have not seen any strong, hard evidence that links the two."

Though its language is dispassionate, the report lays responsibility for this epidemic of ignorance at the White House's door. "So why are Bush supporters clinging so tightly to these beliefs in the face of repeated disconfirmations?" it asks. "Apparently one key reason is that they continue to hear the Bush administration confirming these beliefs."

Indeed, it says, "an overwhelming 82% [of Bush supporters] perceive the Bush administration as saying that Iraq had WMD (63%) or a major WMD program (19%). Only 16% of Bush supporters perceive the administration as saying that Iraq had some limited activities, but not an active program (15%) or had nothing (1%). The pattern on al Qaeda is similar. Seventy-five percent of Bush supporters think the Bush administration is currently saying Iraq was providing substantial support to al Qaeda (56%) or even that it was directly involved in 9/11 (19%). Further, 55% of Bush supporters say it is their impression the Bush administration is currently saying the US has found clear evidence Saddam Hussein was working closely with al Qaeda (not saying clear evidence found: 37%)."

These people aren't going to be swayed by the argument that Bush has alienated America's allies and left the country isolated in the world, because they don't believe this to be the case. "Despite a steady flow of official statements, public demonstrations, and public opinion polls showing that the US war against Iraq is quite unpopular, only 31% of Bush supporters recognize that the majority of people in the world oppose the US having gone to war with Iraq," the study says. Bush supporters also think that world public opinion favors Bush's reelection. In a poll taken from Sept. 3-7, the study says, "57% of Bush supporters assumed that the majority of people in the world would prefer to see Bush reelected, 33% assumed that views are evenly divided and only 9% assumed that Kerry would be preferred."

In fact, a PIPA study released in early September found that a majority or plurality of people from 32 countries preferred Kerry to Bush. PIPA surveyed 34,330 people, ages 15 and above, from regions all over the world. A Pew poll released this spring similarly found that "large majorities in every country, except for the U.S., hold an unfavorable opinion of Bush."

Bush supporters are also mistaken about the president's own positions (a pattern of misapprehension that an earlier PIPA report also documented). "Majorities incorrectly assumed that Bush supports multilateral approaches to various international issues -- the Comprehensive Test Ban Treaty (69%), the treaty banning land mines (72%); 51% incorrectly assumed he favors US participation in the Kyoto treaty -- the principal international accord on global warming ... Only 13% of supporters are aware that he opposes labor and environmental standards in trade agreements -- 74% incorrectly believe that he favors including labor and environmental standards in agreements on trade. In all these cases, there is a recurring theme: majorities of Bush supporters favor these positions, and they infer that Bush favors them as well."

According to the report, this reality gap is something new in American life. "So why do Bush supporters show such a resistance to accepting dissonant information?" it asks. "While it is normal for people to show some resistance, the magnitude of the denial goes beyond the ordinary. Bush supporters have succeeded in suppressing awareness of the findings of a whole series of high-profile reports about prewar Iraq that have been blazoned across the headlines of newspapers and prompted extensive, high-profile and agonizing reflection. The fact that a large portion of Americans say they are unaware that the original reasons that the US took military action -- and for which Americans continue to die on a daily basis -- are not turning out to be valid, are probably not due to a simple failure to pay attention to the news."

The analysis says that the roots of this denial could lie in the trauma of 9/11 and people's desire to hold on to their image of Bush as a "capable protector." It offers no guidance, though, on how ordinary Republicans might be coaxed back to reality.

And while "The Separate Realities of Bush and Kerry Supporters" may be perversely satisfying to Democrats in its confirmation of blue-state prejudices, it carries a pretty disturbing question for all rational Americans: How can arguments based on fact prevail in a nation where so many people know so little?


from:http://www.salon.com/politics/war_room/

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

And on your comment about people not criticizing their own country, let me take a moment to say:

[sarcasm]Hey, Canada has dedicated soldiers. That way, they can be brave and bold while their equipment falls apart around them.[/sarcasm]

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Sorry, but I'll disagree with you here. I live in Canada, and I think that as of now, we are more free than the US has been for quite some time. I am more free than you ever will be. At least the police here don't have the right to detain you without just cause indefinitely, like they do in the US. At least my government doesn't invade other countries, killing untold thousands of innocent people (along with the thousands of guilty). My country believes in peacekeeping, not war-mongering. Who's in Afghanistand with their troops, keeping the peace now that the US lost interest and went on to invade Iraq? Canada does.

Give me a break Starhawk. Your attitude seems to suggest that you think America and Americans are the best thing the world has ever produced! That you always were, and always will be the most powerful, most free and best thing ever! Do you also believe in Manifest Destiny, like many Americans seem to? That it is your "destiny" to rule the entire world? That you have right to do whatever you want, simply because there is no one else in the world who has the military might available to stop you? I'm sorry, but just because you're the most powerful, doesn't mean you're always right, like you seem to believe.

I mean no disrespect to you Starhawk, I simply do not understand when people have attitudes like yours. I don't mean to insult you or anything, but I can not sit here, reading this stuff, and not comment. I hope no one is offended by this, and I hope the meaning of my words makes it through the transition from my mind into print!

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Renegade: It's called Patriotism simply put. Not necerssarily a bad thing but not always a good thing.

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The funniest thing about the whole "flipflopping" issue (aside from the fact that it isn't true, but simply the right's propoganda machine at work) is that we're saying that Kerry is not fit to be President because....he CHANGES HIS MIND!

OH MY GOD. They're right. Surely we don't want someone who CHANGES THEIR MIND at the helm of the country.

I mean, just think of it. What if they learned new information or *gasp* intelligence that didn't fit with thier plans? They might CHANGE THEIR MIND!

Or, if they got advice from an advisor that was smarter on a subject than they were and they convinced them that they might be wrong? they might CHANGE THEIR MIND!

Holy cow. Think of the possibilities. It would be devastating to have a president that listened to advice and then made up a decision, and was willing to CHANGE THEIR MIND if the country needed it, or if it made sense. Or if, god forbid, they might have been wrong.

I mean, just think, what if Kerry were president, and we got attacked by Al Qaeda and he knew, just knew, that Iran was behind it and so he started to prepare for an invasion but then one of his advisers or the CIA came to him and said, "Mr President all our intelligence indicates that it isn't Iran behind the attack, instead it's North Korea". What if, under that situation, our President CHANGED HIS MIND?

Where would the US be then?

In a hell of a lot better place than now, I can tell you that.

Remember that Cuban Missile Crisis thingy? Where we went eyeball to eyeball with the Russkies and the whole world watched while we almsot blew it up? Well, JFK was a pretty bright guy...because he listened to his advisors on possible options to deal with the Missiles in Cuba...and he CHANGED HIS MIND and instead of airstrikes he blockaded.

WE know now, given that Russian archives have all been released to the public after the wall fell down, that if he had ordered airstrikes, odds are very good that there would have been a nuclear war.

Thank god he CHANGED HIS MIND.

WE need a President that is not so lugheaded and stubborn that he can't CHANGE HIS MIND.

Get it?

Or, is it possible that you can't CHANGE YOUR MIND?

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

You might want to be aware of who you are talking about if you are including me. Although there should NOT be such a thing as a list of qualifications which give the right to comment, if there WERE such a list then many of us would qualify quite heavily. Hmmmm lets see... US citizen, vietnam vet, military retired, tax payer, functional family man, home owner. Thats quite a list of things I can put me on the "politicians listen to me" list. About the only thing I could add to it that I dont have at the moment is that Im no longer a "small business owner" or "CEO of a large corporation". Thats just me. I thought Id clarify it abit.

Again its not the facts, its the way they are worded and looked at by others than the person who keeps saying them louder and louder. And civil disorders in those territories has caused us to send in troops (same as the british empire).

The scarey part is that most of those were taken in war. They were taken to move out the government ruling them, we stayed in control in order to "lead them to a proper government", (sound familiar?) and now decades later they still arent free nations or states. Im sure its all in their best interest but then most such actions by countries usually are as far as the nation doing it says.

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Minor nit-pick... while the US military can apparently detain foreigners indefinitely, the police could certainly not do this to a US citizen...

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Very true, but rabid patriotism is definitely not good, not when it blinds the person to all other viewpoints.

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Not indefinately. There is a very specific time limit before they must be charged with something and see a judge. One of the very good parts of the original constitution. Of course there were 1700+ arrested during the republican convention and held for 60 hours.

Re: OT - US Presidential Candiates Arrested!
 

Starhawk said:

[/quote]

Is it?

In terms of Economic freedom, it ranks sixth, behind Hong Kong, Signapore, New Zealand, Switzerland, and the UK (see: http://www.ncpa.org/pi/internat/pd012299g.html)

But I don't think that's what he means. (After all, Signapore is a pretty facistic place in some ways, although, clearly, like Mussolini, the government keeps the train running on time)

So, what about other freedoms?

In terms of press/journalistic freedom (based on things like "attacks on journalists (such as murders, imprisonment, physical assaults and threats) and on the media (censorship, confiscation, searches and pressure).[and]... the degree of impunity enjoyed by those responsible for such violations...), the US is ranked as: 17th (Finland is first, France 11, Canada 5) (see: http://www.rsf.fr/article.php3?id_article=4118)

SO, how about political freedoms? It's hard to get a "top ten" for this, since most categorize rather than rank dsicreteley. Given that, Freedom House ranks the US in it's highest categrory (for both Political Rights and Civil Liberties) but details some disturbing trends as well
(http://www.freedomhouse.org/research...atings/usa.htm)

The US shares this highest ranking with a number of other countries, including Uruguay, Slovenia, Norway, France, Canada, and a whole lot of others.

So, is the US the "most free" in the world? Well, it shares the highest Category, so you could make a case either way, really.