Global spell tactics ?
 

After reading the most powerful spells thread i am now curious about your habits concerning globals and dispelling http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

A) Which globals are your favourite ones ?
My 2 favourites are FotA and GoH .

B) How many gems do you usually invest in your more important globals you would like to have up for a while ?
When do you cast them ? Do you make them perhaps even a research priority ?

C) How do you normally dispel ? Do you try first with something like only +10-20 gems or with more ? How do you change your habits in lategame ?

D) If your global with only base costs got dispelled can you bring it up again with only using base costs ( if there is still a slot free ) ?
Would you rather try a 999 gem casting of e.g. GoH or Arcane Nexus etc. in lategame or always use something like 355 extra gems hoping your enemies try dispelling it with 500 or more gems each time and this way wasting gems ?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Haunted Forest and Astral Corruption - for the fun factor. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

I'd spent everything I have, but I don't rely on GEs much in multiplayer. I've played dozens of MP games since early 2001 and I remember casting only 2 GEs total, both Haunted Forest (that's including the one you heard of, when I subbed for that dying Pangaea).

When I think it annoys my enemies the most http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif.

Never in multiplayer. Except one time - I entered a game as Abysia, with Astral Corruption in mind, but the game ended before I could cast it.

Depends if I know the opposing player enough to play the outguess game. Otherwise, if I really want that GE to be dispelled, and have absolutely no clue about how many gems have been invested to buff it, I'll burn everything I have. Although I'll ask for assistance (extra gems from other players) first.

Of course, the 'ideal' way to dispel a GE would be to cast the same GE for yourself http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif, but I never had an occasion to do so.

Eek. I never played a long enough game to amass that many gems of one kind, even when taking alchemy into account! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

When you're casting a spell and all slots are full, does it attempt to override the weakest existing spell, or does it pick one at random? Presumably if you're attempting to hijack a spell that's already up by recasting it, it will have to beat down the old instance of itself, but otherwise how does this work?
I've never been clear on it, and didn't find any answers searching the forum. Thanks!

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

My Favorites are probably astral corruption (fun for "locking things down" when you've got the majority of your forging and summoning done) and The Wrath of God (for the monthly report of how many enemy units died).

I've heard that it picks one at random and attempts to override it. That seems to be correct from my experience.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

It's also what's been given as the official answer by the devs at IW.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

hmm, my understanding was that it would attempt to override your own globals first. can that be confirmed?

ie.

1) tries to override current instance of said global

if no current instance, then

2) tries to override one of your own globals, randomly chosen

if you have none, then

3) tries to override a random global.

but i'm not actually sure about 2. I've had it happen that way, and Norfleet claimed it, but i could have been unlucky...

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

My favourite is Stellar Focus. It is so apparently useless that nobody bothers to dispel it (and who would want to spend 30 astral gems to have a chance to bring 30-gem worth GE down?). By the time all slots are filled, according to Murphy laws, each next GE cast chooses the strongest existing GE (which is certainly not a Stellar Focus) to contest. Thus, Stellar Focus stays up forever http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

It doesn't override yours first. Its random.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I think that Forge of the Ancients is really cool, primarily because it gives your Forgers a +1 boost in every magic path, even the paths they have 0 skill in. That really opens up a lot of forging possibilities.

Burden of Time is a fun one to cast as Ermor. Of course your opponents will pool their resources and get rid of it within a few turns. But I like to imagine their reaction when they see that you've cast it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Some day I aspire to cast Utterdark with a ton of extra gems on top of it to keep it from being dispelled.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Burden of Time is merely a mild nuisance for living nations. Utterdark is hundreds of times nastier, this one surely won't Last long whatever you put in it. Ermor can hardly afford either anyway.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I disagree. When you have very expensive, well equipped, and very fragile mages, like for example Pythium, Burden of Time can cost you thousands of gold in one turn. In a MP game I am still in, Arcocephales cast Burden of Time after he lost a major battle, I guess as a way to get back at his enemy.

The Burden of time got dispelled the next turn, but no less than two artifacts appeared for forging in that turn. Some of my expensive Drotts were diseased as well, although they survived long enough for my Fairy queens to heal them. I had a pact with the player who had Gift of Health up, so I could not take it for myself.

Burden of Time is so devastating for some nations, and such a pain for every living nation, that anyone casting it in a game I am in can not only expect to have it dispelled in one turn but also to be destroyed as a matter of principle in the next few turns.

I do not expect to see it cast by anyone who is still in the running... unless he is firmly on top of the heap.

As for how many gems I put into globals, I usually invest only the minimum if I have no enemies, and the global is not too powerful (i.e. not Forge of the Ancients, Arcane Vortex, etc...)

If it is a gem generator (Gale Gate, Well of Misery, etc...) I throw it with as much gems as I can afford when I research it.

If it is one of the game winners, then I wait until I have at least 500 extra gems before I throw it. After all would you throw a Arcane Vortex with 150 gems, so that someone else has an even chance of dispelling it with 30 pearls?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

That's a very extreme case, and as such it doesn't invalidate my point. I've been at the receiving of dozens of BOTs myself (mainly because the AI used to have a great liking for it), and I've never been close to losing *thousands* of gold in a single turn because of it, not even a single thousand. A small hundred would be a more accurate figure.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

You would be losing thousands only from unrest and population deaths it produces (well, unless you have a small empire). Getting your mages and troops killed is just an insult to the wound. The worst thing about this spell is that your dominion provides no protection from it (unlike WotG).

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Speaking of globals, "Wild Hunt" doesn't seem very useful for such a cool sounding spell. It targets enemy priests, but it isn't an assassination type battle, and the Lord of the Hunt isn't that tough. Can it kill priests inside castles?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

If I had an empire and armies big enough to lose 1000s of gold EACH turn to BOT, I wouldn't care - because it would mean I have won the game already.

On the other hand, losing 1000s each turn to Utterdark is easy. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Not if you play on large maps. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif
Even smaller maps then Faerun (like Cradle) will produce significant loss. The trouble on larger maps is that it's harder to actually get in and kill offensive mage so you usually have to take the losses or try some long-range attack. Long-range attacks usually don’t do much good against BoT casters since they are usually either pretenders or powerful mages that you can't kill with seeking arrows or flames from afar.

Then there are losses you get if you collect fetishes, clams, etc and your carriers keep getting killed from old age.

Not arguing Utterdark, though. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Cradle looks like a rather large map to me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Significant loss, yes, but over time. In a single turn the loss amounts to a small fraction of your income - and that's not even including gem income, bar the odd clam. Ditto with old age and afflictions: they will affect only a small percentage of your troops each turn, and most of these afflictions won't have a significant impact on leaders. A limp, one-eyed, battle-fraught sage can still research just as well as an healthy one.

Keep in mind I was replying to something who wrote:

So BOT is a nuisance, sure, but since it brings no direct benefit to its caster, since it affects other nations as well (I'll always have more enemies than allies), and since its effect on my econ and manpower is only marginal, it comes in the Last tier of my own 'to dispel' list. There are several other GEs I'd want to dispel first.

Clams maybe, although I'd bet a clamhoarder will still churn them out faster than he loses them. Fetishes carriers on the other hand, are usually undead leaders who don't really care about BOT. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I didn't say its small, just smaller then Faerun. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif
LOL, I placed it as an example of a large map, so there is no need to tell me its large. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Well, no global spell has much effect in one turn. Over time effect is what they are all about. And this one produces unrest which either forces you to drop taxes or live with high unrest which also produces less gold income. Now, maybe to you at least 10% less income in each province looks like marginal thing if you have no upkeep, but if you want to pay for what you have and buy a mage or two that you lost due to the old age - you will feel it. Best way to see how BoT affects income is to cast it an watch the income graph - all nations will get noticable less amount of gold. A few turns is acceptable, but it mounts up in time. Of course, the real effect on someone depends on what nation he plays and his style of play. Some nations are far more vulnerable to BoT then others (not counting undead nations). E.g. Panganea can live with it far better then Ulm.

BoT doesn't only give afflictions; it kills your weaker troops and commanders instantly. Mages usually suffer from it mostly (low HP) so losing even a 1 or 2 of them per turn is a lot. If you don't consider that to be nothing more then nuisance then you have such large empire and income that you have already won the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif (or playing faerun). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Note that I'm talking about BoT's effects in general, not strictly from MP or SP aspect, so that's probably why our opinions differ.

There is a reason why people don't cast it often in MP, and there is an even better reason why it tends to be dispelled in a few turn once it's up. Simply put, people don't like seeing their mages get afflictions and get killed, risk their pretender get a nasty affliction (getting rid of them is never easy if you are not Arco) and see their income drop by at least 10% per turn. And when someone does cast it, people usually pay him a visit with a couple of their armies to see WTH was he thinking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Well, it's usually on my no. 1 to dispel list (unless something nastier is up, like Utterdark). I try to take out offensive global that can kill my troops on the other side of the world before I try to reduce someone's gem income. :p
Of course, it does depend on what nation – theme I play.

The caster is usually undead nation (Carrion Woods, Desert Tombs, Ermor), which can even benefit from it by getting more corpses in provinces.

Depends on whom you use as carrier. You can use undead to carry clams and scouts for fetishes. Depends what you have access to. Undead are always better as carriers of course (no upkeep could be one of the reasons http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) but you use what you can. Chances are that most of the guys in MP won't have enough death gem income to use undead as carriers so they will resort to scouts and other cheap means. BTW my favourite carriers are spectres. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I cannot see the point of discussing whether Burden of Time is a minor
nuisance, or a devastating cataclism. It is blatant aggression, and anyone
casting it will have my main army on top of his capital the next turn...
even if I do not get the chance to make sure that I will be the only
teleporting there.

I dispell or override Arcane Vortex, Forge of the Ancients and Well of Misery
as a matter of principle. I will tolerate most other globals until I attack
the owner. But in the case of Wrath of God, Burden of Time, Underdark, etc...
'until I attack the owner' means 'this turn'.

As for the losses Burden of Time inflicts... Even with Gift of Health, I was
losing three-four mages per turn to outright death from old age in an Inland
game I was nowhere near winning. I was a newbie at the time, but I still
invaded the offender (Pangaea) and got away with it, because everyone else did
as well.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

The Eyes of God? Thetis Blessing? Sea of Ice? Utterdark? Perpetual Storm? In one word, all the 'strategical' GEs?

And then there are globals you can choose to cast "just for a turn", when you haven't the gems to buff them, if you can get a bargain from that single turn - Forge of the Ancients being the most obvious example.

Maybe 'marginal' isn't the most appropriate word here - I say 'marginal' because it's a small fraction, be it 10% of 1000 or 10% of 100000 - it's always 10%.

Size has nothing to do with it. And I've never played Faerun - way too big for me. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif I forgot about that - but there are cheaper ways to get fresh (and better) corpses.

Anyway, since it's so little used in MP (except occasionally by near-extinct nations who just cast it to annoy their more succesful enemies! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif), I think we're giving BOT an undeserved honor with this lengthy discussion.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Lol, ok. Lets give BoT proper burial. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Just a question - who is Albert von Ulm in your signiture? A name you give to your (Ulm) pretender?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Albert Einstein was born in Ulm, a German city.

One of the quotes he's famous of is "Quantum mechanics is certainly imposing. But an inner voice tells me it is not yet the real thing. The theory says a lot, but does not really bring us any closer to the secret of the Old One. I, at any rate, am convinced that he does not throw dice,", or shortened, "God does not play dice."

I love what något has done to it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

At what phase of the turn the globals come into effect and when do they disappear?

For example, casting sequence is:
Mage A casts Astral Corruption
Mage B casts something.

Does Mage B risk to be attacked?

Another sequence:
Mage A dispels (successfully) Astral Corruption
Mage B casts something.

Does Mage B risk to be attacked?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

That’s a good question. I would like to know the answer too.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

well, you get the effects of a global, for instance gems, on the same turn they are cast, so that would argue for "after" spells.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

IIRC, it has been stated earlier by the developers that rituals take place in a completely random order. (I.e. all rituals are queued, the order is randomized, and they are carried out one by one). As such, if mage A casts Astral Corruption and mage B casts another spell, it is random who goes first and mage B may, indeed, find himself at risk. Depending on algorithm (:D), mage B should have about 50% chance of mage A acting before himself. Same goes for for Astral Corruption is up, mage A dispels it, mage B casts another spell - again, either A or B may go first at random.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I suggest you read page 3 of your manual. The relevant information, which every player should know by heart (:D), is as follows.

Resolutions phases:
RECRUIT
RESEARCH
EMPOWERMENT
FORGE
RITUALS <--- Your global enchantment is cast here
MAGIC BATTLES
SEARCH
PRAYERS
BLOOD HUNT
LUCK
ASSASSINATIONS
FRIENDLY MOVEMENT
MOVE BATTLES
STORM CASTLE
ENCHANTMENTS <---- Your global enchantment works here
MAGIC ITEMS
SNEAK
BUILD
SPECIAL ORDERS
INCOME
STARVATION
UPKEEP
DOMINION
SITE EFFECTS
HEAL
MERCS
SCOUTING

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

which is exactly what i said, I believe, though in a much less long-winded manner.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Then in the case of Astral Corruption, when the battle is resolved? During Enchancement phase? There's no other battle phase in the same turn, so it's either then or the unit is marked to be attacked the next turn. Or is it resolved during magic battles phase, but only if GE is in effect?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Attacks from horrors during Astral Corruption are not enchantments. They are probably activated under rituals and forging as it is rituals and forgings that attracts them.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Thanks. Than that means that the forgers are always safe from the new Astral Corruption, but casters may get attacked from just established AC if they're later in the sequence, right?

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

The situation I had in my game was as follows:
I ordered my Air Queen to Cloud Trapeze and Wrath of the Skies the Ulm capital, on the same turn the enemy ordered his VQ, Vampire Count and some devils and vampires to fly from his capital and attack my army in another province.

In the following turn, my Air Queen defeated the PD and besieged the Ulm capital while the vampires flew away and attacked.

Since Magic battles come first, I thought that vampires' movement orders would be canceled as they were now besieged and unable to leave the castle, but that wasn't the case.
BTW, they didn't sneak away, but moved (there were non-sneaking troops in the army anyway)

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Fliers can leave the castle even if it's besieged. They just fly away. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

though fliers cannot enter a castle if it is besieged...

which is a bit of a contradiction.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Ummm.... they can't. Just doubled-checked to be sure. Put winged shoes on sauromancer in a besieged castle and nothing. he can't move. He's not an 'intrinsic' flier, but that shouldn't matter.
Sneaking flyers can sneak away, but that wasn't a sneak order in the game I wrote about.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Globals are a long investment, like Clamming.
Only they're easily "killable".
Some globals are very powerful, like Arcane Nexus, and Forge of the Ancients. Some others are aimed only, like Purgatory.
Others aren't so good because they could be useful to you, but damage many other players, so they're so rarely casted. (like Second Sun)

About dispelling, the two most important thing are:
Dispel is anonimous.
Dispel could be cast in "communion".

Personally I try to shoot down Forge of the Ancients and Arcane Nexus if I see them casted, even if I'm at peace with that nation.
However I've to use my gems, and it could happen that your resources are needed for something else (like you're at war with Ermor and you need harbingers and such stuff).

If you're at peace, I try always to get 1 gem producing spell that isn't Spell Focus (it gives a too low gem income, but I can think about too if nothing else is avaiable).

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Yes they can. I checked it also and in one of my MP games I had my VQ fly from besieged castle attack a neighbouring province to prevent enemy retreat. It worked like a charm.
Maybe being "intrinsic" flier really does matter, or maybe something changed in most recent patch.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I am pretty sure that flyers cant fly away from a besieged castle, while stealthy troops can even if they do not sneak but merely move!

I am besiged in a current MP-game as caelum, and my seraphines can 'move' away, while my seraphs cannot. I think that this is also on purpose, since a stealthy unit should be able to sneak out and attack another province, hence the sneak/move should be independent on the starting provinve.

Nevertheless, I assume a bug: A seraphine cannot leave a sieged castle with assigned troops and she looses her sneak order when getting troops assigned; but she does not lose her 'move' order if she gets troops assigned - so I am curious whether my non-stealthy blizzard warriors could leave the sieged castle being led by the stealthy seraphine... (havent seen the next turn by now)

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I've just made a test and it seems that we were all right. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif
Normally, a flier can't leave a castle. However if a flier has stealth ability he can even if he's not sneaking. That's why my VQ could go in and out at will even while attacking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Sorry for the confusion.

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

I can confirm the bug now: A stealthy commander set to move out of a besieged castle can take non-stealthy units with him! (all were flying, but I dont think that this is important) I post it in the bug thread as well...

Re: Global spell tactics ?
 

Personally, I believe in overkill with many of the globals. It's hard to tell how much of a benefit is derived, since I don't believe you get a notification when someone tries and fails to either dispel or overwrite your global (unlike domes stopping spells).

I know that in one game that recently ended, Vanheim and I (Last of the Tuatha) both cast a spell the same turn - I think it was Forge of the Ancients, but it might have been Gale Gate.

His spell went up. My spell overwrote it that very turn; it then stayed up until the immortal pretender who cast it died twice in the same turn.

Sometimes it's a little extra into a spell - say, 15 extra gems, just enough to frustrate someone who theorizes that I might have put 10 extra in.

Othertimes, it's an extra 50-80%, even on gem producing spells. With enough extra added in, other people will almost certainly be wasting a good quantity of their gems if they attempt to take mine down, and I also believe it means that my global is less likely to be burned if someone casts a 6th hoping to open one of the slots.