What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Sometimes it seems my rainbow searcher finds a lot of gems that only he can use. It almost always ends up that my god summons magic commanders to use the gems. Most games I eventually use sages, amazons, or druids, but for the most part it seems like I'm wasting gems for empowerment/path boosters. Am I overestimating the value of earning gems in paths difficult for a nation to achieve? Should i stick with the remote site searching spells for the paths readily available for my nation and go with a cheaper more dedicated pretender?

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Hm imo you can't have enough gems http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

With deathgems it is extremely easy cause you get good death casters with a lot of other magics :
Nature : summon lamia queen
Blood : Vampire lord
Astral : Ether gate
With deathboosters you can then summon a demilich and with 3 boosters the demilich can even summon tartarians .

Air is at least of use for the AQs , for boots of flying , SR items and staff of storms for every nation .

Water = Clams http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif and boots of quickness , maybe waterqueens .

Astral you need a lot for items : Starshine skullcap , lucky coin , Amulet of Antimagic , luck pendant etc. for SCs , Ring of sorcery / wizardy for path boosting .
Lategame maybe wish .

Nature i find especially lamia queens useful and there is GoH . If you setup a wish/tartarian factory you need as well GoR .

Earth = Dwarfen hammers etc. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif . Good summons for special purposes . Forge of Ancients http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif .

Fire : lategame flames from the sky , maybe lightless lanters for research speed up , gold , fever fetishes , flamebeaus . Imo the gems with the fewest uses .

Blood you can never have enough http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif.


Imo good site searching , no matter if by accashic record , rainbow mage or single path search spells pays always off in the medium/long run .

Death , Nature , Earth and Water are imo the most important gems .

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I know what each gem can do, but my question is how to effectively use them. By mid game i sometimes have a gem income that needs 2-5 multiple lvl empowered and path boosted sages (for each gem type) casting rituals. Thats a lot of wasted gems. Its not that the gems are valuable, i'm looking to find a more effective use. as i mentioned, I find I end up using all my god's time to summon magic commanders to use the gems. I'd rather he do other things, or not even be rainbow at all.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

What kind of gem income are we talking about? I rarely get that many gems of a type I don't have mages for, but I also don't use my pretender to search much. If you don't have the mages to use the gems, you don't have the mages to use the gems, but there are a few items that can help you get there. Ring of sorcery/wizardry and staff of elemental mastery help you get points in magic types that you are weak in. Then it's easy to blow through those gems. At worst you can trade the gems with someone who needs them more than you do (unless we're talking about single player).

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Boron left out Wind Ride as a major use for air gems. Another excellent use for Nature gems is to crank out Ivy Kings which in turn can crank out hordes of upkeep-free Vine Ogres. Fairy Queens are another good use for Nature. Flames from the Sky alone justify fire gems, but another great use is to create Sceptres of Authority in the mid game and Rods of the Phoenix later on. And you can always alchemize them for gold or other gems. Fire gems have more uses than Boron may think. And I don't understand how Boron can mention all the handy items that require Astral, plus Acashic record, and various globals, nevermind Wish and then not include Astral in his list of "most important" gems. Boron, though, is absolutely correct in saying that you can never have enough gems.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Astrals are also always good for dispelling globals...

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Make a more specialised god, use the searching spells for searching and instead of devoting so much time on getting gems you cannot use anyway spend your efforts on taking some land from the closest neighbour.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Boosters. If you go for a rainbow, check out the boosters.


Maximum skill level national mages of Machaka (FFEED? and FDNN?) can achieve with boosters they and FWWAASS pretender can forge if boosters are used to make more items...

2F? +3 Fire = 6F
? +3 Air= 4A (5A with pretender)
? +3 Water = 4W (5W with pretender)
2E? +2 Earth = 5E
? +2 Astral= 3S (4S with pretender)
2N?+3 Nature= 6N
D?+2 Death=4D
? + 0 Blood = 1

They can summon Mound Fiend (they have 3D, right?) which can further summon Wraith Lords and Demiliches, so they can also get powerful mages of Death.

This is without counting in unique items or Rings of Sorcery/Wizardry, which help a lot. There is an excel file that lists all the boosters, you might want to hunt that down if you are interested...


EDIT: Forgot 2Air from the pretender... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I'm all for using the gems to summon casters that can use them, if your own mages cannot. But let's not forget alchemy! If you can't use your Fire gems, turn them into gold, or into even more gems that you can use.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I didn't list them because once you start clamming you should have no astral shortage anymore . At least astrals should be your biggest or second biggest ( after blood ) gem income then .

If you play a game with houserule no clams or 10 clams or similiar then astral gems become one of the most important gems too imo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

But as long as you have water + death at least from midgame on you can cope the astral shortage with every nation by starting to forge clams with spectres http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .


Imo the biggest shortage i always have in :
1. Deathgems
2. Watergems
3. Earthgems

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I'll never understand your logic. If you forge clams like mad when you're allowed to do so, it's obviously because astral gems are _very_ important to you, and water much less so.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I think it's great to find sources of gems that your nation isn't strong in. They taste great, and can be used to make great hot sauces. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

It is somewhat frustrating to get huge incomes of some gem type that dwarfs what your nation is _supposed_ to have. Water nations that can't find any water, Astral nations who can't find astral, etc - those are the two which have the best chance of finding "alien" gem income, what with Voice of Tiamat and Akashic Record.

Still - path boosters and/or empowerment, or summonings, can really let you take advantage of those gems (especially via Spectres, Lamia Queens, and Couatls).

And, they do make great hot sauce. Nothing like a little Nature in your Picante Verde, and Astral gives a very nice citrus sparkle to the flavors even if it doesn't have the habanero heat of Fire or Death. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

But since clams are forged from water gems to start the hoarding water is more valuable then astral .
Astral itself is not so valuable for me cause i normally convert my huge clam astral income in water for further gems and either wish for blood or convert it to death mostly .

So water is more valuable then astral cause it is the input while astral is only the output http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

The reason I am always low on water gems every game is because I never stop building clams!

I believe clams are one of the most unbalanced artifacts in the game. They ought to require W4 to make for what I believe to be their true value. Or maybe W3S1 or perhaps W2S2.

At least fever fetishs are not so bad since they poison the holder and fire gems are less useful in general than pearls. As for the clams, I bet every MP player tries to get a clam on every researcher and/or scout that they can in most games.

For the fire gems, I find myself making the +6 research lanterns as early as I can. Those make a huge difference in your research speed. They are far better then the +3 air quill pens and are even more cost effective then the +9 death thingies. There is nothing I like better than seeing a pile of sages in my capitol named W1RC or D1RC or whatever since they have both a lantern (R for research) and a clam (C) plus one random school of magic!

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I believe you would be quite wrong. For many people, clams are often used only because there is nothing better to do with water gems and isn't an integral part of their strategy.

- Kel

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

No. That's equivalent to say "when I alchemize X to Y, X is more valuable to me than Y". Or "when I convert raw materials to cars, the materials are more valuable than the cars". You NEED materials to make cars, but it's the cars that are IMPORTANT to you.

When input is more important than output, it's a sure sign the conVersion is inneficient. Err, never mind, just send me ten dollars and I'll teach how to earn five! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smirk.gif

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I see it this way :

For forging a clam you either need 10 water or 20 astral gems converted to 10 water .

So when starting to clamhoard 1 water gem is as valuable as 2 astral gems .

So earlygame 1 water gem has twice the value of a pearl .

Lategame the pearls are more valuable because you can convert them to every kind of gem . But since your main income will be astral pearls from clams it is not as scarce as the other gems .
And if you have 20 natural water income this is better then having 20 natural astral income because you can forge twice as many clams from the water income then from the astral income .

So water is earlygame damn important because it helps you a lot starting to hoard earlier + benefit earlier from it .

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

So i guess the answer to my question is that I should continue to be wasting a lot of gems on path boosters and empowerment. And that my rainbow pretender, although he spends a little too much time in the lab, is worthwhile such that your nation can have a different and maybe unexpected avenue to take our your opponents. Only one person said that the rainbow was not exactly the best use of nation points.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Daemon, why do you consider the expense of path boosters a "waste" of gems? As for rainbow pretenders, it all depends on what nation you are playing and what your particular play style/strategies are. If you are an aggressive expansionist, a rainbow is obviously not an optimal choice, especially if you have good national mages. OTOH, if you think you'll have the luxury of slow, methodical expansion and site searching, then a rainbow might well be a good choice (as having one will help your research and gem income quite a bit). You also haven't said whether you play SP or MP, and that makes a huge difference.

You seem to be looking for a one-size-fits-all answer, and this isn't the sort of game where that applies.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Exactly .
Only if you want to play ermor then you can almost get this with a rainbow GK SC pretender http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

But ermor is the only nation which can do this http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.


A GK almost fits the niche of a lowlevel rainbow + ok SC for some other nations too though .
If you play Pythium you maybe don't need to care about any site searching abilities though cause there accashicing for searching is viable .

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I think that's the important bit: you say a resource is 'important' when it's 'scarce' (which I find odd), while I define its importance after its final use (ie, if I use water gems to make clams to make pearls to make something, for me it's the 'something' that's important).

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

I play both MP and SP. Obviously there are quite a number of path boosters and for the most part they are all a better value then empowerment. It just seems that it takes at least 2, sometimes 4 or 5 sages boosted and empowered to lvls 2-6+ (for EACH gem type) to keep my gem income in check. That's quite a lot of gems spent just to be able to use the gems, and time/money to do this - wasting time for the rainbow pretender to search, initial creation of some boosting items, and summoning commanders.

Ok if they aren't used it's a bigger waste, but I was just curious to see how you guys spend your gems. Of course if you have national, cheap mages with randoms I'd empower/boost them before a sage, but for most nations I end up with a lot of gems invested into making more powerful sages.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

No, it most certainly isn't.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

You need to find the sites that offer mages with multiple randoms or higher paths, then.

Some paths are easier to leverage than others. Death is among the easiest, probably; a death-2 mage can forge a 10-gem Skull Staff, making him death-3, which allows a 20-gem Skull Helmet. A death-3 mage can also summon a D3U3 Mound Fiend; give the Fiend a Skull Staff and Skull Helmet and he's D5U3. That, IIRC, might suffice for a Demilich, which is inherently D4 and thus goes to D6 w/ those two boosters. An additional point of D can be found through the death/blood artifact book, or subbing the Sceptre of Dark Regency for the staff (+3, for 2 points net gain), or a sorcery or wizardry booster. But once you reach D2, add a staff, and D3 mages can summon more D3 mages or D1/?1/?1 mages plus build boosters to make 'em D4 or D2/?1/?1. You might also be able to find D2 indy mages; I can't remember right now whether Necromancers are D1 or D2. Any D1 mage at least can cast Dark Knowledge to find the death sites, as well.

Nature is also good for versatility; Lamias for sorcery, faerie queens for branching into air, witches and similar for small numbers of randoms. It's more expensive to chain-summon and boost than death, however. If you're going to rainbow, you might as well guarantee some access (pretender or national) to death or nature for the branching.

Compare to Air, which is relatively expensive to boost (the helmet and bag each require an air-3 mage and 20 gems, the staves of elemental mastery require A3/E3 and 20/20 gems, there's an artifact book as well, and a RoSorcery won't help) and isn't nearly as good for chain-summoning (only 3 air queens, and you need A5). It's a very nasty combat school school, 'tho, especially for SCs (2E/2A Tartarians cloud-trapezing and mistforming, oh my!). You can find indy 2A mages (amazons, IIRC) but 3A is a bit trickier. Auspex is also harder to cast than Dark Knowledge, requiring 3 levels rather than 1.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Yep, there isn't any really good way to get A3 mages, short of empowerment -- or playing Caelum. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

Auspex is only air 2. The only site searching spell that requires more than 2 in any path is Acashic Record.

Re: What\'s the best way to use non native gems ?
 

There is also Fire-Water staff of elemental mastery, and with it your Air 2 mage can forge both air boosters... Which lets even Air 1 mage make more of them. It is some work, but can in some cases be possibility, and after you get it running it is easy to make more air boosters if you have the gems.