Routing bug
 

I just experienced my 3rd routing bug in the
"try something something" game
In all 3 occurences, my army wins the battle, with the enemy routing and leaving the map, with my army and leaders intact, then when I look at the message, it says I lost, and the enemy controls the province.

In the Last battle, I had 13 leaders, most full of magic items, my first 2 casting rounds I cast Blades wind (x2 mages) and killed about 8 of 13 theugs, then the battle progressed to a victory for me, with most of my leaders alive (troll kings, wraith lords, Djinn, high level Vans), and yet when I look at the summary screen, it says I lost 12 of 13 leaders, and the enemy only lost 2. Clearly in contridiction to the film.

has anyone else experienced this bug? am I missing something? my troops were cursed by Doom spell, did this have anything to do with it? if so, this is way too powerful a spell. help appreciated

Wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

clarification
Try something new game
playing on the World map
2 battles were direct movement against another player
1 leader windrided to enemy province
1 leader attacking AI indie that took province several turns earlier with random event
all 4 won on film, lost on main map

Re: Routing bug
 

I have some battle weirdness in heavy difference beetween the battle and the report.
The report is always the correct one.
Not only in that game, and against various options.
Dunno why, I've learned to live with that.

Re: Routing bug
 

Do you run the same Version of client as the server?

Re: Routing bug
 

the latter times it happened, I may or may not have been running exactly the same Version, but the first and maybe second time were early in the game, so I assume it was the same. besides, this still should account for the GROSS descrepancy between results, in the film I kicked ***, and killed a lot of his leaders, with most of mine surviving, and in the message, it said all but one of my leaders died, and he lost only 2 of 20+.
Plus I disagree that the message is the correct one and the film is wrong, (although I admit I may be a little biased) since I watched the battle unfold, and saw weak theugs die as they had bladewinds rain down on them,and I cannot believe the actual battle results would be that dramatically different in that most of them survived. Plus watching the film, you get a since of each die role being made, each hit being calculated, and see the men slowly lose hit points as they are hit, It follows logically how the code is set up. I beleive somehow the results may be calculated, the film generated, and then the results switched when sent to the message board and to the main code/program, which misrepresents them in the main game. (I hope someone can check this hypothesis)
Again, watching the battles, they all play out logically, then the results are way, way off in the other direction.

Any insights appreciated, as I ended up going AI, since I cannot see the fun in playing after spending so much time and resources raisng such a large army with lots of expensive leaders(gems and cash) and lots of large summoned creatures, only to have them decimated by a bug, then watching the enemy move closer to your now unprotected border.
Wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

A single die roll that happens diffferently on your computer from the host is all that it takes to cause the rest of the battle to be widely different.

The results are calculated by the host. It saves the seed to the random number generator at the beginning of the battle. The replay then takes this seed, and runs an identical algorithm to get the same results.

It's not a bug, you just got unlucky.

Re: Routing bug
 

Well... it IS a bug.

The battle report and the replay SHOULD match exactly.

I am curious, has the try something new game been restarted on mosehansen since the upgrade?

Re: Routing bug
 

so are you implying that the host computer and my computer each have different films and different results? this seems highly unlikely, as I have never seen it happen in any other battle except in these few cases where they differ? all the other times in all the other battles, they are the same, and if this phenomenon happened to other people, others would have commented on it and *****ed like me.

I don't see how it is "unlucky" to have a vastly different result on film than in the message.

I could see if only one extra commander died, or a few men didn't make it, that it was maybe a difference in computers or random generation (although if they do differ, then I think this is by definition a bug, as we should see exactly what happened on the host) , but in my battle it was completely opposite, 12 of 13 died instead of 2 of 13 leaders for me, and 2 of about 25 leaders of his died instead of like 17 of 25.

something is wrong for this much discrepancy, I don't think I just saw an alternate result of the algorithm, since my film had such a landslide victory, and I had sooo many good units. again, my first wave of blade winds killed 8 of 13 theugs, on the message it said only 2 leaders died in the ENTIRE BATTLE? with all my firepower, (see above) this just couldn't have happened.
I hope someone who is familiar with the code suggests a reason for this bug, as it make this game (which until now I considered one of the best games of all time) unplayable in my opinion.
Wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

No. The host computer calculates the battle, then kills the appropriate units and sends you a message about it. Your computer then constructs an identical battle using the same starting conditions.

There is at least one inconsistency that can crop up in battles which will cause the replay to be different from the report.

Sure it could have. A single dice roll placing the bladewinds at a different location would be all it takes.

Re: Routing bug
 

I don't think it has been restarted,
but that shouldn't change the real result that much, as I still should have won, although if the code values didn't match, that might create erroneous data match ups and thus result in a bug giving us incorrect results.
3 of 4 occurred against pythium, (one vs AI) but I am not implying he is cheating , as this would be too obvious, since I watch the films and reported it to everyone in the game after each occurrence.
thanks everyone for the input

Wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

A single dice roll actually does matter! As does restarting the server after patching!

Upgrading ongoing games seems to be troublesome anyway, as is mixing Versions: Someone here mentioned that it suffices to preserve the dom2.exe between patching, but this didnt seem to work well. Copying the entire directories seemed much better to me...

Although I wonder why it sometimes notices that the client is of the wrong Version (2.08 vs 2.12) and sometimes not (2.12 vs 2.14)?

Re: Routing bug
 

I was still running 2.12 as I didn't recieve an in game message or see one here that it had upgraded to 2.14
(above, when switched to 48 hours, he questions whether we upgraded)
so I guess this could result in the discrepancy, although my question now is, if I had the correct Version, would I have won on the main computer as well? ie did I see a valid film of how it should have basically panned out since my computer had all the data concerning the armies on both sides and somehow with the different Versions, my armies data was sent to the host incorrectly, so it ran the battle with erroneous data on my army, or would the patch have swung the battle completely the other way? and I think former is probably correct, since it is hard to see how I could have won one by so much and lost the other by so much.
so I guess I got screwed by not having the same Version running (since noone said anything)

in the future, games should probably stay the same Version for the whole game, to prevent these problems, since they basically ruin the game for some people and are so erratic

wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

It depends if the algorithm passes through the branch with altered RNG calls or not. For example, if commander had burning pearl, he would have 100% fire resistance and when he was hit by the fire damage spell or weapon, RNG wouldn't be called. After the patch his resistance went down to 50% and RNG had to be called in that case to determine amount of damage. After that all subsequent RNG calls get shifted by one, which will produce different results.

Example:
RNG sequence:
1
6
6
5
1

Actions:
Mage A casts fire flies and it hits enemy commander,
Mage B casts soul slay on enemy's Air Queen with 25MR.

Server:
- commander has 50% fire resistance, the fire damage rolls uses first RNG number, 1 and deals appropriate damage.
- mage B rolls his number for MR check: 6. Roll again: 6. Roll again: 5. Ok, 11+17=28 total. AQ rolls its MR check: 1. 25+1=26. AQ is dead.

Client:
- commander has 100% fire resistance, so no fire damage roll is needed.
- mage B rolls his number for MR check: 1. Ok, 11+1=12 total. AQ rolls its MR check: 17. 25+17=42. No problem for AQ.

Re: Routing bug
 

Well, you were going up against Pythium. Consider what would happen if a paralyze spell cast against your units succeeded on the host computer, but failed on your computer due to there being an extra call to the random number generator somewhere on your computer.

Re: Routing bug
 

No, your replay would have shown you why you lost that many troops.

Re: Routing bug
 

2.12 and 2.14 have compatible turn files, so the only problem that arise from mixing them is that you won't see battle replays correctly. The results you see are correct according to the rules of the server Version. So if you have burning pearl on your commander, your 2.12 client will show he has 100% fire resistance, but in the battle on the server he will only have 50% resistance according to the server rules. Random number can also fall differently and affect results of the battle.

Btw, if you still have that turn, you can view it with 2.14 client and see what happened in the battle on the server.

Typically, there're few elements which are sensitive to randomness. For example, if you have mage scripted to antimagic, you may lose the battle if enemy flier's reach and kill him before he casts. If the random numbers fall differently and the mage survives, the battle can go completely differently.

Re: Routing bug
 

This is the problem then. The server is almost certainly running 2.14... if you use 2.12 to replay battles on a 2.14 server you will see radiaclly different results than what the server actually processed (which you will see in the battle report).

I took over for Atlantis in that game, and I distinctly remember the server hanging and being restarted perhaps 10 or 12 days ago, which would mean the server is definitely running 2.14.

Upgrading to 2.14 will completely fix your issues.

Re: Routing bug
 

@alexti:

I do not understand why you cite me? I think that I am well aware of how things work (at least I agree with your post)... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

With the line you have cited from me I wanted to express my misunderstanding why a 2.08 client denies to process a 2.12 .trn file right from the start by giving an error message, while a 2.12 client processes a 2.14 .trn file without an error message (but replay inconsitencies)?

I think it should not be too difficult to do that the .trn carries its Version number along which is checked by the client! It would help players who are unaware that the host was updated like in this case. I also think some simple Version control is a necessity.

Re: Routing bug
 

After you were reporting battle replay inconsistencies, I posted that the game was running 2.14 on the Try_Something_New thread. This was on the 18th, enough turns back that you could have, and should have, tried upgrading to 2.14 and see whether or not it made more sense when viewing the battles.

Then again, you might have me killfiled, in which case you wouldn't see my post there (or this one here), and thus didn't see the comment about it being 2.14. After all, since I answered, others didn't.

Re: Routing bug
 

Yeh, I agree - right now there is no good in-game way to tell what Version the server is running. IMO, this is information that should be displayed in the Game Settings screen (where it tells the victory conditions, independent strength, etc). Otherwise right now you have to put two clams or two fever fetishes on a unit for a turn and look to see if you got two gems or one as a result, to tell if it's 2.14 or not.

Re: Routing bug
 

You're quite good when it comes to workarounds, aint you? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Routing bug
 

No particular reason... I was just replying to your and to Wyxard's post, then I've discovered that your questions largely overlap. So I've eliminated duplicates from my replies. After that I've trimmed my replies to about equal size to distribute server load. So, you see every step was logical and that was just misfortune-3 that the result didn't make sense http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

It probably has Version number, but considering that the file format has not been changed, Dom2 proceed. I don't mind it, but it'd be useful to have a warning telling that the turn was hosted by the server running Version such and such.

Re: Routing bug
 

OK different scenario, another bug...

Playing ctis, have 8 sauromancers, 3 inf leaders, each sauromancer with 5 or so bodyguards, and an army of infantry (30 or so). Attempt to storm a wizards tower. The tower shoots and kills a sauromancer. Marignon's mages all cast fire shield. A few xbows fire but completely miss. Everything runs... my mages didnt do a thing... comon 1 mage killed, no other injuries, but they all run?

EDIT: this is a SP game so no host/client issues possible

Re: Routing bug
 

most likely you had your army of infantry on "guard commander" accidentally - all the commanders will rout if one dies if all you have are commanders or commanders and guards.

Re: Routing bug
 

This might be a possibility if I only have mages spamming skeletons. My troops are given an order to guard commander. Commander has orders to cast, not retreat. Why must I have at least 1 guy on attack/fire?

Re: Routing bug
 

Troops on guard commander are considered as commanders themselves, hence they all rout when one dies. Just another one of Dom2's quirks.

Re: Routing bug
 

This is done so that bodyguards don't cause your commanders to stay on the battlefield after everyone else has run away.

Re: Routing bug
 

ok...

I upgraded and watched the battle with the new Version.
the battle did come out as the message said, with the altered ending, BUT, that is because the orders were changed, (which I know because with the old Version, my orders were mostly carried out)and the die roles went very askew .
the updated Version film had all my mass protected trolls, (30) just standing around, not even attacking, getting hit over and over with stellar castcades, and my iron dragons didn't even move for almost the entire battle, just sat there and did nothing, and my spell casting was comletely screwed up. (again, in the first Version, they all moved as ordered, so something deleted their orders)
now I understand that the AI sometimes changes things, but in my Version most went as planned, in this Version a whole lot of leaders/men just sat around getting slaughtered, and very few of my scripted spells were cast.
still, with 40 or so crossbow with flaming arrow, wind guide, relief, and arrow fend, I should have done a lot more damage than the "updated" Version showed.

so... I believe the Dom 2 web site should say using different Versions may "incorrectly" change the results of a battle due to Data Alteration, resulting in a different film , not just that the film may be different. the new film definitely had something wrong with it - hence the completely unbelievable/unlikely/incorrect result

Wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

You should probably sumbit it to Illwinter as a bug. It's not what is supposed to happen accordingly to 2.14 patch notes.

Or you can post your turn file, so somebody can take a look at it.

Re: Routing bug
 

after upgrading to 2.14 I watched the new film that correlates with the server results. The battle runs completely differently than my film using 2.12
Most of my commands are changed, unlike in the 2.12 Version where they are mostly carried out (with the normal variations of the AI), in the 2.14 Version, large Groups of men/trolls just stand around getting slaughtered by spells, not engaging, my iron dragons just sit and do nothing until attacked at the end, my spell casters don't do a whole lot,and when they do cast spells, the are mostly ineffective, essentially it looks like something is wrong, not just a different plausible variation running with different die roles. I can email the turn to anyone that wants to view it under both Versions, as there is a huge difference.
my email is Wyxarddom2@yahoo.com
I will also try and email the turn to Ilwinter
Thanks for everyone input
Wyxard

Re: Routing bug
 

I got replay and took a look at it. In 2.12 Vanheim expertly takes out Pythium's mage who carried Staff of Storms with a blade wind in a first round (he must have practiced right from the birth...). After that Vanheim's flying tramplers wreak havoc amongst Pythium's fodder, in the end Pythium route. In 2.14 Staff of Storms carrier remains alive and with fliers neutralized Pythium mages have little troubles slaughtering Vanheim's army.

Well, yet another reason not to trust Staff of Storms to weaklings...

Re: Routing bug
 

can dragons not move if storm is in effect since they are flying? they should at least move on the ground,
and the trolls still just stood around. the storm also I guess nerfed the wind guided/flaming crossbows.
so the verdict is that the 2 films are just 2 possible outcomes of the same battle? if so, then some of these spells are too strong if they sway an entire battle this significantly. (12 of 13 dead leaders & most army dead vs. overwhelming victory? due to one spell/magic item <staff of storms> not working?)

Re: Routing bug
 

Or it is the flying trampler that are too powerful. Or the bladewind that kills the carrier of the staff of storms.

There are plenty of spells and items that affect the outcomes of battles. Storm is powerful, but so is flying, trampling and shock resistance (if you face wrath of the sky and storm). There are counter measures to most strategies, but some are more difficult to find or utilize.

Re: Routing bug
 

well, I would say that storm/SoS is too powerful for it's cost; but that is true of a large number of spells/items, naturally. It does sound like the army wasn't prepared to deal w/ the standard SoS wielding pythium army, and so the original result seen was likely the flukey one.

As to why the trolls were sitting around, didn't you say they were being hit by stellar cascades? was there fatigue 100+?

Re: Routing bug
 

Very True... the Staff of Storms should be held by nothing weaker then a Spectre which is ethereal by default. Also I'd recommend finding a way to raise his protection just to be safe.

Re: Routing bug
 

Iron dragons were moving, but the pace of their ground movement isn't very impressive. Trolls got stellar-cascaded, and so they were way too tired to move.

Right.

Yep, some spells are quite strong, especially against narrowly-specialized army. Though blade wind is not one of those. You can't rely on hitting the right mage with it. And Pythium wasn't supposed to let weak mage carry the SoS. Especially when he had spare AQ.