Water Magic
 

Instead of posting this material to the Dom3 Wishlist directly, I’m posting it as a new thread and dropping a note into the Wishlist. Feel free to comment on these ideas here.

This is a collection of ideas suggested by: 1) the thread to cut down on clam-hoarding by providing alternative uses for Water gems and 2) the threads on providing more scope for “aquatic theme” Water magics (as opposed to “cold theme” Water magics). In particular I’ve taken a shot at providing concrete suggestions for Dom3 design and testing.

Water magic tends to be indirect and subtle or defensive. So those looking for low-to-mid-level flash-bang combat spells won’t find them here.

SPELL SUMMARY LIST

Con
Jellyfish Swarm Con1, W1
Razor Fish, Con2, W2
Reavers from the Deep, Con 7, W4
Razor Fish Tide, Con 8, W4

Alt
Ocean of Air, Alt 7, W6
Curse of Atlantis, Alt 8, W7

Evo
Sea Squalls, Evo 3, W3
Monsoon Rains, Evo 5, W3
Cooling Zephyr, Evo 6, W3
Global Haze, Evo 8, W5

Ench
Sargasso Sea, Ench 5, W5N2
Water Way, Ench 6, W4
Dome of Arcane Reflection, Ench 7, W5

Thaum
Combat Flow, Thaum 2, W1S1
Eldritch Fog, Thaum 4, W3
Combat Tide, Thaum 5, W3S1
Whispering Clams, Thaum 5, W2S2
Thaumaturgic Whirlpool, Thaum 7, W4S3

Blood
Sea Mark, Blood 2, B1W1

NEW SPELLS
The first section is new spells. The second is adaptations of other people’s spells. The Last is a short list of new magic items.

The spell description includes information the players get out of the manual. The design notes show what’s going on with game mechanics. I do think that much of what a spell does should only be hinted at.

Curse of Atlantis: Ritual. Alteration 8. Paths: W7. Cost: 100 Water gems.
One of the great ancient forbidden incantations, this spell reclaims a coastal province/island for the sea. The target province permanently sinks into the sea amid great disruption. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: This spell changes the designation of the coastal province from land to sea, permanently—this cannot be reversed. Since the curse causes the whole province to sink from below, domes do not affect or stop it. A full 80% of the population dies, as do all units and commanders without water breathing ability (survivoring units rout into adjacent friendly provinces). Province structures (Temple, Lab, etc) except Fortresses are destroyed. Province defense is set to 0. Corpse count is set to 0 after this. Unrest is set to 200% after this. Growth scale is set to +3 after this. The converted province is permanently marked with a blue magic effect marker (i.e., a dome marker). Neighboring sea provinces lose 10% population and gain 30% unrest. Land provinces neighboring the new sea province gain 20% unrest and 5% population, and become coastal provinces.]

[Note that no other water spell is a path W7, they all max out at W6. I think a 7 is warranted from a thematic viewpoint, testing mileage may vary.]

[My take on this one is that it’s a late game “weapon of mass destruction” that is useful only in limited situations. In most cases, I think if you are powerful enough to use this, you probably don’t need it. The exception may be a rich target within a province or two of the coast. However, the existence of the capability should mess with the minds of the land power players nicely.]

Cooling Zephyr. Battle Enchantment. Evocation 6. Paths: W3 Costs: 200 fatigue/2 Water gems.
A mass of cool, wet air envelops the battlefield. The effects of hot climate are relieved and fire damage is reduced. Friendly troops are refreshed. This spell immediately counters and is countered by Heat from Hell (En 6). This spell cannot be cast underwater.

[Design notes: Any positive province heat scale is reduced to 0 for this battle. Fire damage is halved. Friendly units receive Reinvigoration +1 and Morale +1 for the battle.]

[It might be fun if Dom3 had a mod tool command to set up “mutually destructive” spells.]

Global Haze: Global, Evocation 8. Paths: W5. Cost: 100 Water gems.
A great cooling haze rises from the oceans, blanketing the world and reversing the effects of the Second Sun global spell (Ev 8). The spell energies drain each other, mutually destroying both global effects.

[Design notes: Disable this on maps with no oceans. BTW I know that the current undersea nations have easy access to Astral gems to go for the dispel, but this is a sure kill and future undersea nations may not always get good Astral magic, so…]

Reavers from the Deep: Ritual. Conjuration 7. Paths: W4. Cost: 20 Water gems.
An independent band of amphibious raiders is magically influenced to attack and ravage the target coastal province. Surviving reavers will stay in the province and continue to pillage it until they are destroyed. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: The reavers are 20 Shamblers (#206) led by a Shambler Chief (#207). The chief has a 1% + 1%/Luck scale chance to have an Implementor Axe. The reavers are independents hardwired with Pillage orders. They are immune to the Lure of the Deep spell. Reavers only attack coastal provinces. The ritual does not function when Sea of Ice global is in effect. “Tiamat whispers, and they obey…”]

Sargasso Sea: Global, Enchantment 5, Paths: W5N2. Cost: 40 Water gems.
Thick beds of seaweed choke the seas. This global spell prevents the Sailing ability from operating anywhere in the world. The effect Lasts until it is dispelled or until the caster dies. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: Currently this would really only effect Vanheim, Marignon CotS, and the Pocket Sailing Ship item, although I think likely that in Dom3 sailing will become more prominent.]

Sea Mark: Ritual. Blood 2. Paths: B1W1. Cost: 1 Water gem.
This spell grants up to 5 Blood Slaves in your laboratory water-breathing ability, permanently.

[Design notes: If less than 5 are in laboratory, then all are marked.]

[Other variations: Fire Mark grants fire resistance=100 (Fire gem). Ice Mark grants cold resistance=100 (Water gem). Sky Mark grants shock resistance=100 (Air gem). Snake Mark grants poison resistance=100 (Nature gem).

[Sea Mark opens up the possibility for an underwater magic site that produces sea-marked Blood Slaves, should we get a Water/Blood theme.]

[Or wrap the whole thing into a spell called Slave Mark, with a secondary popup that lets you pick the type. And maybe add a checkbox to automate it–in other words, all slave marks will be of a certain type until the box is unchecked. Also consider an “Automark Now” checkbox, which marks all your Blood Slaves in laboratories (choice of “all” laboratories or the one “currently highlighted”), and instantly deducts the appropriate number and type of gem. Oh, and add an “undo” button for this function as well.]

Sea Squalls: Ritual. Evocation 3. Paths: W3. Cost: 10 Water gems.
Sailing is not possible into, out of, or through the target province. Squalls Last for one turn. The target province must be a sea or coastal province. The sea squalls appear to be a random event.

[Design notes: Squalls are surface only and don’t affect undersea operations at all. Active squall areas receive a “magic operating” symbol whether magical or natural. Squalls are automatically disabled by the global enchantments Thetis’ Blessing and Sea of Ice (and the appropriate popup appears if you try to cast the ritual while either of these is running).]

[Consider “natural” seasonal squalls. Check each month for each sea and coastal province: 5% in spring/fall, 2% in winter, and 0.5% in summer.]

Thaumaturgic Whirlpool: Ritual. Thaumaturgy 7. Paths: W4S3. Cost: 20 Water gems.
The spell creates a vast magical whirlpool in a target sea province. In addition to its physical destructive power, this maelstrom absorbs and cleanses the area of death-based, supernatural, and otherworldly essences. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design note: The concept is to use the same general targeting as Fires From Afar, but base damage is 12, with specials Armor Negating, and x3 vs. demons, devils, angels, magic beings, and undead. Chance to destroy non-Fortress structures, 10% each. Kills 2% of population and adds 10 unrest to target province.]

[This spell is great cleansing spell from previous times whose function was to filter and rid the primal seas of baleful and alien magical essences. While it wreaks physical damage on normal creatures, those of magic, undead, or supernatural nature are sucked into a bottomless void and supposedly expelled to some extra-dimensional otherspace.]

SPELL IDEA DEVELOPMENT
My tweaks of other people’s Water spell ideas that I liked a lot from other threads. (I’ve listed idea sources, but the specific configurations are my take on the original.):

BATTLE MAGIC and BATTLE ENCHANTMENTS

Combat Flow: Battle Magic. Thaumaturgy 2. Paths: W1S1. Cost: 20 fatigue.
The caster’s defense rating increases as he becomes magically attuned to the ebb and flow of combat.

[Design notes: Defense increases +1 per 2 ranks in the Water path, rounded up, cap at +5. Area=Caster, Precision=100] [rabelais]

Combat Tide: Battle Enchantment. Thaumaturgy 5. Paths: W3S1. Costs: 200 fatigue/2 Water gem.
As Combat Flow, but nearby friendly units have their defense values increased.

[Design notes: Precision=+5, Range=10, Area=5+. Unlike Water Shield and Water Ward, the Combat Flow/Tide spells work on land. Combat Flow/Tide effects do not stack with Water Shield/Ward effects.]

Jellyfish Swarm: Battle Magic. Conjuration 1. Paths: W1. Costs: 30 fatigue.
This spell can be cast only underwater. Summons a swarm of small, slow, weak, highly toxic jellyfish with paralyzing poison and long tentacles.

[Design notes: Area=caster, Nbr eff=2+, say about +2 per additional rank of water magic. The closest current spell is Animate Skeletons, and the jellyfish as detailed below should be about half a skeleton.][Saber Cherry]

[Jellyfish: Size=1, hp=1, prot=0, mor=50, mr=3, enc=3, str=0, att=10, def=10, prec=5, mv=1, ap=1, Specials: aquatic, does not eat, fly, mindless, paralysis (weapon 282), attack every second round.]

[Design notes: I’m guessing that 1 action point means they would move next to an enemy and have to survive a round before getting an attack. I think giving them this type of delay and a slow attack mode would be the equivalent of a slow-moving hazard, without having to mess with the instantaneous underwater movement conventions of the fly ability too much.]

Monsoon Rains: Battle Enchantment. Evocation 5. Paths: W3. Costs: 300 fatigue/3 Water gems.
This heavy rain has all the effects of the Rain spell. In addition, precision is greatly lowered for all units due to limited visibility. No units can charge, and those other than amphibians and flyers struggle in deep mud. This spell cannot be cast underwater.

[Design notes: The precision modifier for units is –4. This rain counts as a storm for storm effects. Normal Rain penalties are increased to 150% of that spell’s level. Effective encumbrance for non-amphibian or nonflying units is increased by x1.5. Action points for all units are halved. The Lance bonus is negated and Trample damage is halved. Aquatic/amphibian creatures are +1 morale, non-amphibian/aquatic creatures are –1 morale.] [Cohen, I think, original source note lost. The spell name is new.]

[Special notes: In cold conditions, the rain turns to snow, and all units except cold resistant ones have their Encumbrance increased by x1.5. The precision, fire, Lance, and Trampling effects remain the same. The morale effects of the base spell do not apply. Action points are not adjusted.]

Razor Fish: Battle Magic. Conjuration 2. Paths: W2. Costs: Fatigue 20.
The target unit, which must be a living creature, is slashed by a small razor fish commanded by the caster. The razor fish dies immediately, but the wound continues to bleed for the rest of the battle. This spell can be cast only underwater.

[Design notes: Rather than stat this out as a creature, this configuration assumes that the creature is only minnow-size and won’t be noticed before it does its damage. The wound is anesthetized by the razor fish saliva, which also prevents clotting. Anyone surviving the battle is assumed to be treated in time to avoid death. Dmg=2 + 2/turn, Precision=100, Area=1, Range=15, Special: Shark schools/sharks without riders in Area=2 around target become berserk +3. Undead and nonliving creatures are immune.][Saber Cherry’s “Bloodletting”]

[The bleed effect should be comparable to poison. Balancer may be to restrict bleeding to a set number of rounds.]

Razor Fish Tide: Battle Enchantment. Conjuration 8. Paths: W4. Costs: 400 fatigue/4 Water gems.
Razor fish attack all living creatures on the battlefield. The wounds continue to bleed for the rest of the battle. This spell can be cast only underwater.

[Design notes: Dmg=2 + 2/turn, Area=Battlefield, Range=Battlefield, Special: Shark schools/sharks without riders become berserk +3. Undead and nonliving creatures are immune.]

RITUAL SPELLS

Dome of Arcane Reflection: Ritual. Enchantment 7. Paths: W5. Cost: 10 Water gems + 1 gem/turn.
This province ward is 65% likely to deflect a spell, sending it elsewhere. Adding additional gems extends the duration of the dome. The dome collapses immediately if the caster is killed.

[Design notes: The reflection effect breaks down in percentages as follows: 01-35 No effect , 36-55 spell redirected into a random province, 56-80 spell redirected a neighboring province, and 81-00 spell reflected back into the caster's province—a somewhat different breakdown from the original. A spell that can’t be cast into the new target province fails.][Cainehill, Vicious Love]

Eldritch Fog: Ritual. Thaumaturgy 4. Paths: W3. Cost: 10 Water gems.
This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory. Commanders in the target province may become confused by the strange vapors of this mysterious fog and do nothing this turn. This spell cannot be cast underwater.

[Design notes: The chance per commander is 20%. All order options are greyed out for an affected commander for 1 turn and any continuing orders are reset to the Defend default. The fog also creates 10% unrest. Pretenders are immune. Consider making the prophet immune, too. A similar Random Event should be inserted.][Partly inspired by djtool’s “Deluge”.]

“A mysterious fog blankets [X] province this month. Everything seems to take longer and people are worried.”

[A footnote for those who are interested. If there are three commanders in the target province, the chance of getting at least one of them is about 50%. I don’t think a base 20% per commander is too low.]

Water Way: Ritual. Enchantment 6. Paths: W4. Cost: 15 Water gems.
This spell allows the caster and the units he commands to travel from one coastal or sea province directly to another coastal or sea province. This spell can be cast only in a coastal or sea province.

[by Gateway103] [The path and cost stats follow Zen’s Concept Mod treatment of Fairy Trod.]

GLOBAL SPELLS

Ocean of Air: Global. Alteration 7. Paths: W6. Costs: 80 Water gems.
This spell allows aquatic creatures to fly and to breathe air, enabling them to move into land provinces. It Lasts until it is dispelled or until the caster dies. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: It lets aquatics fly at their sea move rates. It also allows sea creatures to breathe air. All “cast only under water” spells can be cast anywhere. Items that only work underwater function anywhere.][Vicious Love’s “Ghostwater Tides”, though IMO no ethereal connection is needed—the creatures are not “flying” or “airbreathing”, they are “swimming” and “waterbreathing” in a magically enhanced medium that aquatic/amphibious essences respond to—Water magic all the way.]

Whispering Clams: Global. Thaumaturgy 5, Paths: W2S2. Cost: 30 Water gems.
This spell reveals information about any province containing a Clam magic item as if viewing through an Astral Window. The effect Lasts until it is dispelled or until the caster is killed. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: The information is spy-level, so it would, for example, reveal what’s inside a besieged fortress. This effect is a variation of the Voice of Tiamat spell, focused through the hive consciousness of enchanted clams—a side effect of the magic that makes them gem-producers. BTW, I played around with a ritual Version of this for awhile, but decided that pricing the capability would be just too arbitrary. IMO it works best as a global effect.][Maltrease’s “Seeing Pool”]

[The low pricing is intentional. I see this as a “cockroach” global spell that costs only as much to put up as it does to dispel. This may or may not be a good idea, depending on exactly how global spell replacement works. A more conventional price would be 40 Water gems.]

MAGIC ITEMS

Amulet of the Jellyfish: Trinket. Construction 0. Paths: W1. Cost: 5 Water gems.
This item works only underwater, spamming out 2 jellyfish per turn.

[Design notes: See Jellyfish Swarm spell for jellyfish stats.]

Sharkskin Armor: Lesser Item. Construction 2. Paths: W2. Cost: 10 Water gems.
While the commander wearing this armor is underwater, he will be attended by a school of small sharks.

[Design notes: prot=8, def=1, enc=1. If underwater, the armor automatically summons a school of 5 small sharks at the beginning of a battle. The sharks also show up during assassination attempts if the commander is underwater.]

Shambler Amulet: Greater Item. Construction 4. Paths: W2N1. Cost: 10 Water gems, 5 Nature gems.
The commander wearing this amulet assumes a human-shambler hybrid amphibian form. The wearer can breathe freely in water or air, and can walk on land or swim in water as if a creature native to that environment.

[Design notes: size 3, hp +6, prot +6, str +2, def –2, prec –2, mv=1, ap=11. Special: cold-blooded. This shapechange is magical.]

Pocket Hippocampus Chariot: Very Powerful Item. Construction 6. Paths: 3W. Cost: 20 Water gems.
A commander with this item can move two sea spaces instead of one and can Trample in combat. This item does not function on land.

[Design notes: Magic item fits the “feet” slot. Chariot size=5, Specials: Trample, Reinvigorate +2.]

The Conch Coach (unique): Artifact. Construction 8. Paths: 4W. Cost: 40 Water gems.
This item holds 110 size-units of aquatic units. These units can only enter or leave the Coach underwater. The Coach itself can be taken into any province. If the commander equipped with the Coach is killed, all units in the Coach are lost. It is not possible to fly or move quickly overland with the Coach.

[Design notes: 1) In terms of scouting/scrying, units in the Coach are counted as troops; 2) it is not possible to be stealthy and have the Coach equipped—it represents a 120-ft vehicle, plus draft-slugs; 3) if the commander is attacked while underwater (any province if the global effect Ocean of Air is in force), the units in the Coach automatically appear on the battlefield, grouped as a central mass—you can’t give formation orders to units in the Coach; 4) if the commander is attacked on land, the units do not debark—instead they suffer the fate of the commander—if he is killed, they die. 5) Capacity works out to 55 tritons, or 36 shamblers, or 22 war lobsters, etc.]

Graphic: Giant conch shell on crude wheels, drawn by giant slugs.

Re: Water Magic
 

I definitely appreciate the thought you've put into this, but many of these spells/items seem like they would be nigh-impossible to implement, and most also seem unbalanced, one way or another.
Take Global Haze, for instance. Level EIGHT in a path which water nations seldom have call to research, costs twenty gems more than the base cost of the target enchantment, requires 2 path levels more than Dispel, and offers no secondary, Fate of Oedipusish perks such as burning out the target's eyes. I suppose it might be preferable to dispel under certain circumstances, but said circumstances are of nearly negligible likelihood.
'course, game balance can be rectified, and a few of these spells wouldn't be all that hard to code. Effort applauded, old bean!

Re: Water Magic
 

I vote for Jellyfish Swarm =)

Overall, a bunch of good ideas! Aside from Quickness and water/blood summons - which are very powerful, of course - I've always felt Water could use some more exciting spells.

-Cherry

Re: Water Magic
 

Curse of Atlantis: Overpowered. Let's target the capital of Arcoscephale. Now thay can no longer build Astrologers. Now let's target the capital of Mictlan. Let's hoard 200 water gems to cut the isthmus so the reinforcements from the north can't reach the south. And so forth.
Give it only 40% chance of success at each casting and it will still be too powerful in my opinion. Make it 50% success +5%/dominion point or 100% -10%/opponent dominion would be better. Destroying three provinces in order to destroy the capital of one nation is way too powerful to succeed automatically.

Re: Water Magic
 

I have to agree with LDiCesare...
Curse of Atlantis is way way tooooo powerful... maybe if the cost was 2000 water gems the spell would be okay.

Re: Water Magic
 

Thanks to all!

Vicious Love: Impossible to implement? Certainly impossible to mod in Dom2, we just don’t have the tools. But are they impossible for Dom3? Nothing ventured, nothing gained.

Global Haze: You are right. I forgot to add a benefit. How about +1 morale bonus for friendly amphibious and aquatic units?

On the issue of the rarely-researched school, that sounds good to me. My intuition was telling me Evo 6, but my relative lack of empathy for Atlantis (which I don’t play much) impelled me toward the (timid) decision to mirror the Fire-based global spell. Sloppy move. I temporarily forgot the principle of dynamic equality and didn’t take the preferred lines of Atlantian/R’lyeh research into account. Evocation 6 is better, yes?

This might be an issue for the cost and path assignments for Water Way, as well. Once again, blindly copying a similar spell is no substitute for dynamic balance testing.

Just for grins, a revised Evocation list would look like:

Freezing Touch, Evo 0, W1
Slime, Evo 1, W1
Cold Bolt, Evo 1, W2
Geyser, Evo 1, W1F1
Acid Spray, Evo 1, W2F1

Cold BLast, Evo 2, W2
Rain, Evo 2, W2

Freezing Mist, Evo 3, W3A1
Acid Bolt, Evo 3, W2F1
Sea Squalls, Evo 3, W3

Water Strike, Evo 4, W1
Acid Rain, Evo 4, W3F1

Falling Frost, Evo 5, W3
Monsoon Rains, Evo 5, W3

Cooling Zephyr, Evo 6, W3
Global Haze, Evo 6, W5

Ice Strike, Evo 7, W2
Murdering Winter, Evo 7, W5
Acid Storm, Evo 7, W4F1

Maelstrom, Evo 8, W6

Niefel Flames, Evo 9, W5
Tidal Wave, Evo 9, W5

Don’t you think the Water-gem-generating Maelstrom at L8 is sufficient to draw the aquatic nation player up this list?
-If not, do you think Maelstrom should be a lower level?

Acid Spells: I do think that the acid-series spells (Spray, Bolt, Rain, Storm) might be used more if the Fire element was removed. In my own (solo) play, I’ve certainly never had occasion to seek them out, though I have tried them out of curiosity before going back to more efficient spells.
-Are they as much a dead-end in multiplayer games?

It might be reasonable to reconfigure the whole acid attack form to be fully water-based. After all, swamp-dweller bile breath is acidic and swamps tend to be water-themed (at least much more than fire-themed).
-Thoughts?

Rust Mist (Evo 2): How about making this E2W1 spell a W2E1 spell instead, shifting it from the Earth camp into the Water camp?

Anyone know of a hidden landmine that making this change would set off? If not, it might be worth testing.

On the cost issue, I was looking at Eyes/Fate, and the premium for a 100% kill on the Eyes was 150% of its base cost. Applying that to Second Sun gave a kill cost of 120, and that seemed too expensive. Turns out I misread Dispel—I thought it would take a base cost of 80 to get rid of Second Sun. Having reread the Dispel description, oops, not so. The base cost of Global Haze should have been in the 45-55 range (see below).

Do go on. I value your commentary.

Saber Cherry: Thank you. I always liked your jellyfish idea.

LDiCesare: On reviewing the Curse of Atlantis spell, I agree with you.

Curse of Atlantis is seriously overpowered as configured. Your suggestion about dominion is excellent.

One perception that I’ve developed over time is that it’s harder for the sea nations to amass a pile of Water gems than it is for land nations to amass a pile of their theme gem.
-Would you agree?

That said, a big boost to cost and better controls are definitely needed for this spell.

Benchmarks: The most expensive current spell is Astral Corruption at 166 Astral gems. IMO it is undesirable to match or exceed the highest cost in the best path with a Water spell of any sort.

There are two spells at 150 gems (Looming Hell, Arcane Nexus), two spells at 120 (Illwinter, Three Red Seconds), and two spells at 100 (Wish, Utterdark). I’m much more comfortable nerfing Curse of Atlantis down to a fair value of, say, 150 gems. I am partial to 150, which is like 100 for a Wish, +50% premium for being irreversible.

NTJedi: Thanks for your input.

-Have you ever been in a multiplayer game where a sea nation amassed 2,000 Water gems?
-What is the highest Water gem total you have seen amassed by a sea nation in a multiplayer game?

(BTW: Anyone should feel free to jump in on these questions. Practical benchmarks are important.)

TWEAKS & REVISIONS

Global Haze: Global. Evocation 6. Paths: W5. Cost: 50 Water gems.
A great cooling haze rises from the oceans. It blankets the world, raising the morale of friendly amphibious and aquatic creatures. The haze also reverses the effects of the Second Sun global spell (Ev 8)—the spell energies drain each other, mutually destroying both global effects.

[Design notes: Friendly aquatic and amphibious units receive a +1 morale bonus while this spell is active.]

Curse of Atlantis: Ritual. Alteration 9. Paths: W8. Cost: 150 Water gems.
One of the great ancient forbidden incantations, this spell reclaims a coastal province/island for the sea. The target province permanently sinks into the sea amid great disruption. This spell is risky to cast and much less likely to succeed in areas under hostile dominion. This spell can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: This spell changes the designation of the coastal province from land to sea, permanently—this cannot be reversed. Chance of success is 90% - 10% per point of hostile dominion. Since the curse causes the whole province to sink from below, domes do not affect or stop it. A full 80% of the population dies, as do all units and commanders without water breathing ability. Province structures (Temple, Lab, etc) except Fortresses are destroyed. Province defense is set to 0. Corpse count is set to 0 after this. Unrest is set to 200% after this. Growth scale is set to +3 after this. The converted province is permanently marked with a blue magic effect marker (i.e., a dome marker). The caster is automatically feebleminded and has 3 chances at 30% for additional afflictions.]

The new configuration does several things:
-First, the higher Level and high path means there will be a long delay until the capability comes on line.
-Second, dominion as the principal defense gives the defender more control over his vulnerability.
-Third, the automatic failure chance plus the certainty of affliction (and the chance of multiple afflictions) slow down the rate at which this spell can be used.

Given that the typical multiplayer game tends to be decided in 40 turns or so, pushing the time scale for the effective use of this spell this far out may be too much control. A casting of once a game in 20 multiplayer games or twice or more per game in 50 to 100 games is the frequency benchmark I’d like to see this spell hit.

Now a question for the experienced MP’ers:
In all your MP games that included Atlantis, in what percentage of them would it have been feasible (not necessarily smart) for the Atlantian player to drop 150 Water gems into a single spell?

-What about R’lyeh?

Re: Water Magic
 

It's blood slaves, not astral gems.

But I agree that Curse of Atlantis is still too powerful. It's just too much of a do-everything spell. It would be the best province disaster (80% population dead, better than Black Death!), best army destroyer (kills all non-waterbreathing units including SCs!!!), best unrest causing spell all-in-one, and gets rid of temple/lab as a bonus, which I think would be rather against the spirit of the game, regardless of what costs you impose on it.

Re: Water Magic
 

Point taken.

I thought Second Sun and Global Haze cancelled each other out? 50 gems may not be all that much, on a global mojo scale, but I still can't imagine anyone shelling out 50 water gems for no more than a +1 morale bonus to the rank-and-file.
At any rate, evocation 6 sounds good.

Speaking of shelling out, you'd think Maelstrom would be some sort of incentive, but you forget that
A) Astral pearls will always be more valuable than water gems, even with these new spells available. I'm not saying astral needs to be nerfed, I'm simply saying it's more powerful. It's... thematic. Not all paths were created equal.
B) Clams can be produced long, long before a Maelstrom can be evoked, and yield a comparable return on investment.
C) Clams cannot be dispelled, and are unlikely to be lost. Actually managing to lose clams and researchers is one of the first signs of being doomed, doomed, doomed. Unless you've simply forgotten to research domes. Not a single one of which is an evocation.

Obviously, Maelstrom is worth casting, if you've already researched evocation 7 or 8 for unrelated reasons, but it would probably be unwise to squander one's research on a school which can't even summon Queens of Elemental Water.

I imagine Caelian high seraphs and R'lyeh's starspawn make good acid flingers, what with the combo of water magic and a random. Removing the fire would take away the spells' STYLE, it would, and not lightly does one impoverish Dom 2's groove.
Besides, I'm told they're downright awesome. No resistance protects against them, and damage is more than halfway decent. Remove the fire, and you give water an immense advantage in precisely the area in which it should be one of the weakest paths. You also make fire just an ickle bit less valuable as a battlefield path, which is an awfully counterintuitive thing to do. If anything, we should be enhancing the power of burnination yet further. Or teaching anathemants to actually hit the friggin' target, but that's another issue altogether. Bloody Abysian precision.

Nope, it's natural. And wet, as well, depending on whether you spit it out or summon some beasties to spit it out for ya. Pay attention!

Works for me. Wouldn't even deprive earth of all that much.

Not an experienced player, but I'd have to say "The ones in which they don't blow all their water income on clams and Water Queens". Anyone ever seen that happen?

Re: Water Magic
 

Well I think the spell would be fine if it had a (70-enemydominionstrength*10 + friendly dominionstrength*10) % chance of success.(after all it costs as much as three waterqueens), so it should be powerful It would very rarely suceed against enemy capitals and generally wouldn´t help much offensively, but it would be an awesome spell for defense.
Right now it is rather pointless to have a 6+ water mage, so water magic needs some nifty highlevel spells.

Re: Water Magic
 

Re Curse of Atlantis,
I don't agree much with the % chance of success idea : any spell costing 100+ gems and having a sizeable chance of *not* working will never be cast (except maybe by hoarders lol) !
The spell has to be made "balanced" but with 100% success chance, rather than ruin the game for one player either by succeeding or by failing !

Re: Water Magic
 

Well with my formula it would have 100% chance of success in your dominion3 provinces. If you want to have it "kill" a capital or research center deep in the enemys homeland you have to pay for the risks. Plus it would make for very interesting sneaky dominion spreading strategys.

Re: Water Magic
 

Vicious Love:

Global Haze: Now I’m curious. What would you consider a fair bonus for the 50-point global? A +2 morale bonus? Something else? Enquiring minds want to know!

Astral vs. Water: I certainly agree with you on this. Astral thematically is the dominant path and that needs to be protected. But I would like to see a sea nation that can successfully stray from the Astral/Water combination.

Acid Spells: I was wondering if something like that might be the case. Just thought I’d raise the question. If the effects would be as significant as you say, then these should probably be left alone. You do tempt me to go back and play with those spells some more, though.

MP Question: Your thoughts mirror mine. I was hoping to get some concrete numbers to promote a rational discussion of the point. Exchanging opinions is interesting, but at some point data is needed to anchor things.


Deccan:

Doh! Yes, it is blood slaves, not astral gems. My bad. Thanks for the catch.

The extreme effects of the Curse of Atlantis spell stem from the nature of the event itself. It sinks a whole province. The game effects flow from the basic event. Would you have the PD continue to operate after the province is underwater? Ergo, the PD is reduced to 0. The event caused by the spell is supposed to be a more extreme disaster than those created by current spells—and the caster should be paying accordingly.

Let’s look at your notes:

Best Province Disaster:

Spell: CoA vs. Black Death
Path: W7 vs. D5
Gems: 150 vs. 15
Death 80% vs. 50% population loss
Unrest:200% vs.9%
Afflict 1-4 vs. --

Are you getting 10 times the punch from CoA? Not in terms of population death, though maybe in unrest, which repairs itself much faster than population.

Best Army Destroyer: No worse than invading the sea under Thetis’s Blessing and having it dispelled out from underneath you. But there’s certainly room in the nerf toolbox to soften that 100% loss of airbreathers. See below.

Best Unrest Spell: Looks to me like the unrest effects, as written previously, bite the sea player a lot harder than the land player. However, the peripheral unrests could certainly go away—I’m sure they would be somewhat tricky to code—I can’t think of any similar effect in Dominions 2.
-I must admit that in doing the 200% unrest, I was thinking about taking the province economically offline for 6-8 months, and not comparing the unrest effects of other spells (I am just beginning a new analysis of the spell tables and I estimate about two weeks before it’s bashed enough into shape to really use—and I wanted to get this thread started sooner rather than later).
-Actually, the 20% population left after the sinking is not remnants of the original population; it’s the initial repopulation of the new sea province by aquatic inhabitants. So a case could be made for dropping the unrest result completely. Seems reasonable to me.

Temple/Lab: Seems irrelevant to me—if the sea player takes it, the temple is razed anyway, and the loss of the lab is an equal disadvantage to both contenders.

Special Thanks: Your post did drive home one important fact to me. I neglected to say that the target province becomes independent. I should have.
-It was never the intention for this spell to give the land player a cheap, trashed sea province. It was intended to scorch the earth (so to speak) before the sea player moved in.
-There are certainly many ways to drive a province independent (and most of them cost about 25 gems), and none of them trash the target province the way this spell does. That trashing is part of the price of casting this spell. What’s left is no real prize, and that's intentional.
-As a side note, this spell also has a political cost in MP. It paints a nice target on the sea player who uses the capability in the face of significant opposition. It’s likely to put the user at the bottom of a big dogpile made of everyone else. And that should not be discounted.


TWEAKS & REVISIONS

Curse of Atlantis: Ritual. Alteration 9. Paths: W8. Cost: 150 Water gems.
One of the great ancient forbidden incantations, this spell reclaims a coastal or island province for the sea. The target province permanently sinks into the ocean amidst a great cataclysm. The spell is risky to cast, and much less likely to succeed in areas under hostile dominion. It can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: The target province becomes a sea province, permanently. The spell’s chance of success is 90% - 10% per point of hostile dominion. Since the curse causes the whole province to sink from below, domes do not affect or stop it. The following effects apply:

- 80% of the population dies.
- Provincial structures other than Fortresses are destroyed.
- Provincial defense is set to 0 and the province becomes independent. The converted province is permanently marked with a blue magic effect marker (i.e., a dome marker) to indicate its sunken status.
-Corpse count is reduced to 0 and Growth scale is reset to +3.
-All units in the province have a 20% chance to be killed outright (+/- 2%/Luck scale) in the cataclysm. Death counts as a single fatal hit with respect to luck items (which function normally).
-Surviving air breathers without water breathing or flight have a 50% chance to be killed by the inundation (+/-3%/Luck scale). Death counts as a single fatal hit with respect to luck items (which function normally).
-All survivors automatically rout as if defeated in battle.
-The caster is automatically feebleminded and has 3 chances at 30% for additional afflictions.]

I really like the feedback on this spell so far.

Re: Water Magic
 

Another way to ruin a province, this time using water gems. That's really what the game needs, as there are way too few ways to do that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

What about creating some water spells that actually build up a province (s population) ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

On the other hand I must agree that your suggestion has a way better chance to acutally find it's way into the game. Seemingly the developers are just to fond of weapons of mass destruction http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/stupid.gif [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Envy.gif[/img] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/evil.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif

Re: Water Magic
 

Curse of Atlantis should be depending on your dominion. Each point of your dominion raises the chance of the spell working by 10 percent, e.g. dominion 9 means 90 percent chance of success.
But of course, there should be an earth spell working in the opposite direction

Re: Water Magic
 

I thought acid spells were kind of moot until I began playing Tien Chi. Celestial Masters of all themes are practically designed to cast Acid Bolt - a really great and accessible artillery spell. With a water bracelets or a lucky W3 master, you can cast acid rain, which is also quite powerful.

Re: Water Magic
 

If the developers added such an overpowering spell which sinks an entire province into water while ignoring domes then yes the cost would be set accordingly. The spell can instantly destroy entire armies, multiple SC's, pretender, temple and lab. Also imagine the power of pushing the altitude of an entire mountain where its actually below sealevel and then covered underwater without altering water levels elsewhere... 2000 water gems is accurate.
Practical spells get practical benchmarks.

Re: Water Magic
 

Well, lessee. The so-called "secondary effect" has to be worthwhile in it's own right. The whole "dispels Second Sun" thing is irrelevant, as it's either the dispel, or the global, effectively two entirely different spells with the same research and path requirements. I mean, I suppose there is SOME weight to the fact that a fire nation would have to dispel this or replace it with one of their own globals in order to avoid wasting a casting of Second Sun, but methinks that's nowhere near just cause to cast a sub-par global spell.

The Eyes of God is one research level lower than this, and costs 50 gems. Despite the Achilles' Heel, methinks it's still far superior to +2 morale and a bit of reinvigoration. I mean, keep in mind this will only affect amphibious and aquatic troops.

There are some pretty awesome aquatic troops out there, but a water nation shouldn't need to resort to a global to dominate the oceans. As for amphibians, there're a bunch of assorted SCs* and ubermonsters(Doom horrors, vastnesses, and other not-all-that-marine beings which happen to be able to enter the water), and the water nations' national troops, which range from pretty hardcore, but not in a way that'd be enhanced by this spell(Illithids), to pitiful and unworthy of the expenditure of 50 gems(Everything else. Except meteorite guards and ubershamblers, I guess).

Also at research level 5, you've got Gift of Health, which only costs 40 gems, and is one of the most desirable globals in the game. Mind you, it is one of nature's chief selling points, and so should be more powerful than most spells of that cost and research level, but there's simply no comparing a measly morale boost to the HP-boosting, affliction-healing goodness that is GoH.

On top of that, you've got Dark Skies, which, much like this spell, is only useful in those stages in which armies are more important than mages and SCs. Has anyone ever actually cast this spell?

If I had to make this sort of spell competitive, I would either
A) Make it give all friendly aquatics unbreakable(But not mindless) morale. This wouldn't really affect SCs, and half of R'lyeh's troops are already mindless, but I suppose it would be a boon to Atlantis, if they actually have any use for those troops of theirs by the time you can cast this. Not that this is remotely thematic, but that's what happens when you try to justify a 50 gem price tag on making the world a slightly damper place.
B) Have all battles(Or perhaps all battles in friendly dominion, to keep this from totally crippling fire as a battlefield path for a mere 50 gems) be affected by rain, mist, or some combination thereof. Maybe give aquatics and amphibians a bit of fire resistance, to boot.
C) Throw in a bit of protection, magic resistance, and maybe a miniscule amount of affliction-preventing regeneration.
D) Some combination of the above.




I don't think Oceania'll have astral.
Yea, verily.

I dig the various incarnations of Curse of Atlantis, by the way. Considering the disadvantages, 150 gems might be more than a bit overpriced. On most maps, it'll take more than one casting to actually reach a player's capitol, and it takes no more than a bit of luck and a few domes(At lower research levels than this monstrosity) to make an oceanic adversary waste two Water Queens' worth in gems.

* Methinks this spell should not affect undead and lifeless, by the way. Nor "poor amphibians", since they're usually swampdwellers or magical constructs, rather than marine beings.
Then again, most proper amphibians have next to nothing to do with the ocean, and really should not benefit from a glorified ocean breeze. Not sure whether horrors are amphibians, or poor amphibians, but I'm sure there are plenty of similar cases out there.

Re: Water Magic
 

The curse of atlantis spell is unlikely to appear in dom3. Not because it is a bad idea, but because it would probably be too powerful. Also because it wouldn't be possible to graphically represent it on the map the way it should be.

When we worked on dominions 1 we intended to have spells that would change the map. The pixelated maps of dom1 changed with temperature and growth. Initially we intended spells to change the map as well. Mountain ranges, forests etc. We also intended the atlantian dominion to flood coastal provinces by slowly replacing pixels into blue ones. The problem with this (one of them) was that the trn files would become huge as they would have to include changes to the maps.

This is actually the part I miss the most from dom1. The changing terrain. On the other hand there were not many effects of terrains on the game.

Re: Water Magic
 

Whoops, didn't realize this thing ignores domes. That changes things.
Still, Lure of the Deep, Flames from the Sky, and Murdering Winter all have comparable army-killing potential(In proportion to their costs, I mean), and the dominion penalty is enough to protect the capitols of those players not already doomed by dominionsnuff.
I suppose some sort of troop-saving strategic autorout might be in order, but methinks 100% certain elimination of all non-amphibians is the least you could ask for, considering this spell's prohibitive cost and likelihood of failing in high enemy dominion, or even low friendly dominion.
If one's SCs aren't already amphibians, one could always waste one of their misc slots(Or a body slot), or just make a point of avoiding coastal provinces. Since I've seen Lure of the Deep take out pretenders and 22 MR SCs, this is hardly an order of magnitude above and beyond existing deterrents.

Re: Water Magic
 

After thinking about for a while, I find that I would feel better about "Curse of Atlantis" if it were a kind of ultra-powerful global that has a small chance every turn of causing a random coastal province in the world to be submerged, though strong dominion would help protect against it. Now that would be a declaration of war against land nations. Hmm...

Re: Water Magic
 

I would love to see changes to terrain from turn to turn graphically represented. Perhaps there is some way to make this a game option to give players with fast connections (or SP games) the ability to see some gee-whiz effects, while letting players with slower connections play as well. Think of it as just another graphics setting (albeit a complicated one).

Re: Water Magic
 

I've wanted those for a long time. I can see perfectly good ways of doing them.

Nature: province-wide healing spells prevent folks from dying -- if births and deaths were balanced before, now there's growth
Astral: mass luck means fewer accidents, etc
Air: something like "village wind ride", moves population from one province to another

For water, I could see something that provides perfect irrigation to farms or or healing springs, or... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Water Magic
 

To All: This post has a significant new tweak. Please base comments on latest incarnation. Oh, and there are spells in this list other than Curse of Atlantis, if you want to go there.

Turin: Thanks for your Posts. You are right. At the stage the game would be when this spell is available, it should go through a weak enemy dominion. Not sure I completely follow your formula, though. But perhaps a revised formula should be considered (see next).

PvK: I agree with you that in most cases, a spell should work as advertised. I also consider a 10% failure chance to be acceptable if the spell description says that casting the spell is “risky.” A failure chance under 5% is not significant enough to warrant the description “risky,” unless something else is going on. It’s quite possible that the current dominion-based percentage swings are too linear and too extreme to serve this spell well.

My alteration would be to use the following tweak:

Success = 92% – (enemy dominion + enemy dominion cubed).

The results would be:

Pos/ neutral dominion: 92%
Enemy dominion 1: 90%
Enemy dominion 2: 83%
Enemy dominion 3: 62%
Enemy dominion 4: 24%
Enemy dominion 5+ Fails

Arralen: I sympathize, but having an obvious nuke to work toward does spark interest.

I agree that something should be done about province growth, and in particular the replacement of population lost to events and magic.

I am not convinced that spells are the proper medium to try this. If this approach was taken, the obvious choice is Nature magic, not Water magic, which is why I didn’t do anything on it for this thread.

Growth/Death: But going off-topic for a moment, I’d favor starting with the Growth/Death scale and the way the campaign world models population dynamics.
--First, maybe peg 0-population growth to Death 3, and scale positive population growth up from that.
--Second, revamp the world model to have higher birth rates at lower populations, tapering off to maybe an average (scale 0) annual growth of 5% at the 30,000 mark.
--Third, put in a default multiplier to apply for maybe a year after a major population loss. The multiplier’s value would increase as a function of population loss (the greater the loss, the higher the multiplier).
--Fourth, give players a tool (maybe an order) to shift population around the map.
--Then, see if there is still a problem.

Magical Means: Evil Dave covered a lot of these. (I like the “wind ride” idea, maybe Earth could conjure some deranged Earth gnomes to do essentially the same thing for that magic school!). The big problem I see with using magic is the near impossibility of being fair and balanced for everyone.

Back to topic…

Kristopher O: I know that graphics is a challenge, but if this whips into shape properly it’s not going to not going to happen more than a few times in a game, so a spell marker should be sufficient.

Power is mutable, and there are still tools left in the nerf-bag. Are we getting closer? What would it take to get into range? Care to play professor to this open class on spell design?

For example, how feasible/welcome are the minor Luck-based tweaks to broad effects as proposed occasionally in this spell thread?

Deccan: Thanks for giving me a chance in this thread to look at something and say: “Now that’s too powerful!” lol

Vicious Love: As always, I appreciate your comments. Another tweak to Global Haze, below.

TWEAKS & REVISIONS

This time, changes are rendered in italic, as usual, but salient features are also rendered in <font color="blue">blue.</font>

Curse of Atlantis: Ritual. Alteration 9. Paths: W8. Cost: 150 Water gems.
One of the great ancient forbidden incantations, this spell reclaims a coastal or island province for the sea. The target province permanently sinks into the sea amidst a great cataclysm. The spell is risky to cast, and much less likely to succeed in areas under hostile dominion. It can be cast only from an underwater laboratory.

[Design notes: This target province becomes a sea province, permanently. The spell’s chance of success is 92% - (enemy dominion + enemy dominion cubed). The following effects apply:
<font color="blue">-Domes do not affect or stop this spell</font> (the land sinks from below)
<font color="blue">-The spell always has a minimum 5% chance of failure, and always fails against enemy dominion 5+.</font>
- 80% of the population dies. (This represents the migration into the province of aquatics equal to 20% of the original population.)
- Provincial structures other than Fortresses are destroyed.
- Provincial defense is set to 0 and the province becomes independent. The converted province is permanently marked with a blue magic effect marker (i.e., a dome marker) to indicate its sunken status.
-Corpse count is reduced to 0 and Growth scale is reset to +3.
<font color="blue">-All units in the province have a 20% chance to be killed</font> outright (+/- 2%/Luck scale) in the cataclysm. Death counts as a single fatal hit with respect to luck items (which function normally).
<font color="blue">-Surviving living creatures without water breathing or flight have a 40% chance to be killed</font> by the inundation (+/-3%/Luck scale). Death counts as a single fatal hit with respect to luck items (which function normally).
(Note: This means army losses of roughly 50% if you have no flyers and no water breathers. Misfortune 3 scale losses would be about 65%.)
-All survivors automatically rout as if defeated in battle.
<font color="blue">-The caster is automatically feebleminded and has 3 chances at 30% for additional afflictions.]</font>

Global Haze: Global. Evocation 6. Paths: W5. Cost: 40 Water gems.
A great cooling haze rises from the oceans. It blankets the world in continuous monsoon rains, which creates poor visibility and muddy ground throughout the world. The haze also can reverse the effects of the Second Sun global spell (Evocation 8)—the spell energies drain each other, mutually destroying both global effects.

[Design notes: Monsoon Rains has all the effects of the Rain spell, plus the following:
-Normal Rain penalties are increased to 150% of that spell’s level.
-Effective encumbrance for non-amphibian or non-flying units is increased by x1.5.
-Precision modifier for units is –4.[Consider -50% precision reduction and 25% of missiles discarded. This is a cut-down Version of the Storm spell]
-Action points for all units are halved.
-The Lance bonus is negated and Trample damage is halved.
-Aquatic/amphibian creatures are +1 morale, non-amphibian/aquatic creatures are –1 morale.]

[The above will undoubtedly have to be tweaked some more, since I’ve never been able to find out exactly what the Rain spell does. <font color="red">Anybody know?</font>]

Everyone Else: Thanks!

Re: Water Magic
 

Rain = Double Fatigue for Fire Path Spells, removes the "Heat" Special Ability Trait on units during combat (I.E. No AOE around the Heat units that combusts and gives fatigue).

Re: Water Magic
 

Thanks, Zen!

Re: Water Magic
 

This is a bit of OT but I also miss that great feature.
I think maybe if you didn't add the map to the turn file but instead add some kind of data struct that represents which pixels should change (thin matrix for example) and then have the game engine of the clients apply those change to the map, then bringing that feature back might be feasible.

just my two cents.

Re: Water Magic
 

It would not be feasible with painted maps of dom2. Only on pixel maps (and the trn files would still be quite large). Since we abandoned pixel maps in dom2 it is not going to happen in dom3. Other cool features will be added instead http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Water Magic
 

I can hardly bear the waiting without this insidious teasing http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Water Magic
 

What cool features are you referring to?

(maybe he'll slip...)

Re: Water Magic
 

Here's a selection of water spells I devised a while ago. I'm quite proud of them, because they're simple and straightforward, whilst still being reasonably thematic.

Discipline

Grants friendly units in a square +4 defence. Basically a water variant of protection. A costly 'mass discipline' could be available as well. This could a rather powerful spell, so an associated pay-off (like protection's fire vulnerability) may be in order. It's a mind spell, so it won't affect mindless units.

Weakness

Enemy units become weaker as their muscles soften and their joints sieze up. Reduces strength by 4 points. Magic resistance negates. Available in single square, small area and large area variants.

Memory Focus

This enchantment opens and nourishes the casters mind. His memory becomes as clear and malleable as water itself. The caster gains greatly increased experience points from each battle, perhaps triple or quadruple. There could also be an expensive army-affecting Version of this spell, or even a ritual which grants this ability to all your units everywhere in the world. The ritual spell would be a very nice research booster as well.

Amnesia

The opposite of memory focus, this spell clouds the memories of enemy units. When hit, their experience is washed away and a unit of battle-hardened veterans becomes as inexperienced as raw recruits - but with several battles worth of afflictions. Magic resistance negates, probably. There could also be a ritual spell which causes experience to wash away across the whole world; except for your soldiers. Soon, you'd own the hall of fame.

As well as these memory affecting spells, there could also be water items with related effects. An item that grants permanent memory focus, and a sword that drains enemy experience, for example. That'd be quite a combination...

Summon Sirens

I'd envisage sirens as a sort of aquatic combination of hama dryads and wailing ladies. Aquatic, awe, ethereal (maybe), steal strength and an area affecting siren song which could have all sorts of interesting effects. They can be summoned anywhere. It's similar to sea nymphs, but I reckon sirens are cooler.

Sea Witch's Coven

Summons a sea witch and her coven of twelve sirens. The sea witch has powers of water and death, and her song is especially powerful. When in a water province, she can summon lost sailors to her cause. The lost sailors are poor amphibians, but still have some fighting skills.

Re: Water Magic
 

About Discipline - working pay-off would be "magic resistance negates". It wouldn't work on supercombatants or most magic units, but on the normal units it would be just fine. Most of the weak summons that can be massed would also be shut off by mindlessness. I like it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I would like to see more water+other combinations. Water already has some great multi-path spells (Acid spells, Bone Melter) and items (Tome of Water Breathing, Jade Armor), but I would like Water to have special part as *the* multipath path.

Also, spells that need only one point of water in addition to more power in some other magics would be nice. Look at Rust Mist (EEW) and Foul Vapors (NNNW) to see what I mean.

Ghost Captain
Enchantment 5-7
DDW - 7 gems
Summons ethereal Ghost Captain who is undead, has sailing and can only lead undead. Probably high Fear rating as well.

Rust Cloud
Evocation 4-6
EEEEW - 100 fatique, 1 gem
Battlewide Rust Mist. Works like Foul Vapors, so armors of whole armies are not destroyed in only few turns.

Astral Window (Enchantment 3) changed from SS to SW and name changed to something more appopriate.

Air-Water spell would be nice, atm I only remember Freezing Mist (WWWA - Evoc 3). N-W has Bog Beasts and Foul Vapors, but there are no nature-cold spells. Earth already has Earth Grip and Meld (Alt. 3, 4), so we can't use Water to ensnare.

Some underwater-only spells would be nice, especially for battle.

Re: Water Magic
 

Good ideas Sandman. I especially like Amnesia since that would be a way to put "the fear of water" into buffed up heroes. It would be good to be able to clear out the Hall of Fame.

I'll add a few of my own.

Summon Leviathan
Ritual. Summons a massive aquatic dragon-turtle. It's basicly an underwater flying trampler with high protection, huge bite damage and 250 hp. Water could use a high end summoned creature.

Jaws of the Abyss
Battlefield summon. Draws the attention of a megalodon (giant prehistoric shark). The monstrous creature will randomly attack any creature on the battlefield until it is slain. The spell is powerful enough to shield the casting mage for a short time (3 turns).

Strangling Kelp
Battlefield attack. Animates strands of kelp in an aoe 2 attack. Units become entangled and suffer three str 10 tentacle attacks.

Mermaids Gift
Ritual. Commander without amphibian, poor amphibian or aquatic recives the ambhibian ability.

Armor of Ice
Battlefield Enchantment. Grants additional protection for the caster. Protection is higher in colder provinces.

Path of Icefloes
Ritual. Caster gets sailing ability for one turn.

Clarity
Battlefield Enchantment. Caster recives +50 precision for the next spell or missile.

Waterform
Ritual. Makes the caster permantently etheral, stealthy and aquatic. Doesn't work on Pretenders.

Quench the Flame
Battlefield attack. Does tremendoes damage to a creature with a heat aura or a Fireshield. It also extinguishes burning units in an area. Could be a Caelum specific spell.

Well of Youth
Global enchantment. Morale is greatly improved inside dominion, growth scale increases. Cancels out the effects of the spell Burden of Time inside your dominion.

Sunken Treasures Arisen
Global enchantment. All water provinces inside your dominion have a chance to yield additional gold each turn. The amount of gold depends both on dominion strength and luck scale. Exceptional results includes gems, magic items and possibly units.

Call the Vortex
Units inside a large area on the aquatic battlefield are tossed around randomly on the battlefield, damaged and fatigued.

Waterspout
Battlefield Attack. Hostile Unit gets hurled trough the air and lands in a random square. Suffers moderate damage.

Re: Water Magic
 

I dig these immensely. That is all.

Re: Water Magic
 

Well, that means it won't work all that reliably on even regular troops; although it is a good spell, so that wouldn't matter. There would be all sorts of groovy wierdness with penetrating items, which is nice.

Discipline would also help the water-using nations inject some much needed pep into their otherwise dismal troops.

Yup, I like Amnesia as well. Memory-affecting spells would be a decently thematic addition to water's repetoire.

I'm not sure whether Amnesia should be resistable or not. On the one hand, it'd be annoying to definitely lose experience points on a powerful hero or elite units. On the other, it's not like Amnesia is any worse than curse or horror mark; and it can be 'cured' by regaining experience.

Re: Water Magic
 

Zen: Rain spell redux: The effect on flyers is also doubled encumbrance?

Sandman: I really liked most of these spells, especially Memory Focus and Sea Witch’s Coven.

Discipline: If Water gets a defense+ spell, would a protection+ spell as well be too much?

Amnesia: I would hope that Pretenders would be immune to this one. A Hall of Fame cleaner is a nice idea. Like reflection, this is a great potential water theme.

Endoperez: I like your thoughts on multiple paths, and this might have some T’ien-Ch’i-strengthening fallout as well.

My growing sense is that unless the Dom2 conventions are shaken up a bit, a Water magic track might always to lose out to an Astral magic track for the sea nations.

Astral gems are not only the most valuable gems in the game, but they have by far the most accessible gem-producing magic item in the system. Most gem-producing items are dual path, or unique, or penalized. In the specific case of the sea nations, the water-gem-producing item is unique, requires good fire-magic, is cursed and causes an affliction, which seems a pretty thorough lock-down to me.

But since the Astral gem-producing-item is not multipath, has the low cost of only 10 gems per item, and can be built in unlimited numbers, there isn’t room to do anything cheaper that wouldn’t be too cheap in comparison to the rest of the game.

Under normal circumstances I wouldn’t consider suggesting the following, but it seems to me that an edition change is precisely the time when a change this significant might be considered.

My thought would be to look at shifting the Clam of Pearls item up a notch (Con 4, W3, 20 gems) and stick in a lower-tier effect, such as:

Triton’s Horn: Lesser Item. Construction 2. Paths: W1E1. Cost: 5 Water gems, 5 Earth gems.
The horn produces 1 water gem per month. It can be constructed only in an underwater laboratory.

[Earth gems seem to be fairly available to sea nations, so ramping up Water gem production (and thus later Astral gems) might not an insurmountable penalty. At the same time, the Horn would offer sea nations the chance to choose a straight Water game instead of going for Astral gems.]

[A possible additional control to the Horn would be to require a strategic order (monthly ritual?)—so that creating the Water gem would be the user’s only action that turn, and also letting the horn cancel any user stealth when active.]

Reference List of Items Producing Gems:

Astral: Clam of Pearls, Con 2, Water 2, 1/ gem turn, no limit.
Fire: Fever Fetish, Con 2, 5 Fire/5 Earth, diseases owner, 1 gem/turn, no limit.
Earth: Blood Stone: Con 4, 20Blood/5 Earth, 1 gem /turn, no limit.
Death: Sickle/Crop of Pain, Con 8, 20 Death, 1gem/kill, only one per game.
Water: Ruby Eye: Con 8, 20 Fire, 2/turn, cursed, affliction lose an eye, only one per game.
Air: none.
Nature: none.
Blood: none.


Wauthan: Liked many of your ideas, too. The combat summons (Leviathan, Jaws) would be nice upper level effects.

Strangling Kelp: This would make a good W/N multipath spell.

Mermaid’s Gift: This one I’m not too crazy about. Aquatic water spells should, IMO, primarily benefit the sea nations. Like Thetis’s Blessing, this spell is of far more use to a land power gearing up to invade a sea power. I'd rather make the commander use an item slot to get waterbreathing capability.

Armor/Path: As ice spells, they are off-topic, but interesting, nonetheless.

Clarity: The +50 looks like overkill to me. Aside from the automatic casting hit, defined as precision=100, my reading of the existing spell list indicates that variable spell precision ranges go from –3 to +5, and the greatest spell enhancement to precision is +5. I could maybe see Clarity at +5 precision, possibly even stackable with the other precision-boosting spell, but +50 seems off a bit to me.

Waterform: I really like this idea—I think it’s the best variation on a water form spell I’ve seen.

Well of Youth/Sunken Treasures: Both way cool.

Call the Vortex/Waterspout: I think these could have some really nice-looking graphic effects in play in Dom3. Not sure that they wouldn’t make Water magic a little too tough on the battlefield, though. Worth a test.

All in all, very nice.

TWEAKS AND NEW STUFF

Call Lobster: Battle Magic. Conjuration 2. Paths: W1. Cost: 40 fatigue.
This spell calls a giant lobster to aid the mage in combat. After combat, it returns to the deeps. This spell can be cast only underwater.

[Design notes: Calls one lobster: rng=10, fatigue=40, prec=0]
[Lobster (642), weapon=claw (29), armor=none, sz= 5, hp=34, prot=20, mor=15, mr=4, enc= 2, str=20, att=6, def=5, prec=3, mv=3/8, Specials: animal, aquatic, trample.]

[I don't have a good sense of balance on this spell, yet. The creature is powerful, but it's slow and very vulnerable to magic. I thought about a ritual spell, but it seemed to me that Conjuration 2 would be the appropriate level, and Summon Sea Serpent is already there. The lobster stats, of course, are out of the unit database.]

Mass Swim: Battle Enchantment. Enchantment 7. Paths: W4. Cost: 200 fatigue, 2 Water gems.
This spell grants all friendly units the ability to swim like aquatic creatures. It can be cast only underwater.

[Design notes: area=battlefield, fatigue=200-/2 Water gems. This is an underwater “Mass Flight” spell.]

[I thought about a low-level caster Version of this, but that had such limited application (basically, it would prepare the caster to flee the field) that I decided not to stat it out. The Mass Swim spell would be useful to mobilize slower moving aquatics against land-based invaders, and would would be the equivalent of a fly spell if the aquatics get a land-invasion global spell.]


Note: This next one is a bit off topic, but if Rusting Mist is modified along lines suggested earlier (WWE), then Earth has no 2nd level Evocation, so:

Stone Spikes: Battle Magic. Evocation 2. Paths: E2. Cost: 30- fatigue.
This spell creates a field of sharp magical stone spikes in front of an advancing enemy. A unit that tries to move through the area takes damage and may be crippled. Flying creatures are not affected by this spell.

[Design notes: rng=15+, dmg=2 ap, area=2+, prec=3, fatigue=30-. Those wounded must make a successful mr check (+2 bonus) or receive the “Limp” affliction. The dangerous area Lasts 3 battle rounds.]

Monsoon Rains: Battle Enchantment. Evocation 5. Paths: W3. Costs: 300 fatigue/3 Water gems.
This heavy rain has all the effects of the Rain spell. In addition, precision is greatly lowered for all units due to limited visibility. No units can charge, and those other than amphibians and flyers struggle in deep mud. This spell cannot be cast underwater.

[Design notes: The precision modifier for units is –4, and 25% of missiles are discarded, i.e. Air Shield (25). The monsoon counts as a storm for the purpose of casting other spells. Normal Rain spell penalties apply. Movement and melee encumbrance for non-amphibian or nonflying units is doubled. Action points for all units are halved. The Lance bonus is negated and Trample damage is halved. Aquatic/amphibian creatures are +1 morale, non-amphibian/aquatic creatures are –1 morale.]

[Special notes: In cold conditions, the rain turns to snow, and all units except cold resistant ones have their movement and melee Encumbrance doubled. Action points are not adjusted. The morale effects of the base spell do not apply. The precision, fire, Lance, and Trampling effects remain the same.]

Global Haze: Global. Evocation 6. Paths: W5. Cost: 40 Water gems.
A great cooling haze rises from the oceans. It blankets the world in continuous monsoon rains, which creates poor visibility and muddy ground throughout the world. The haze also can reverse the effects of the Second Sun global spell (Evocation 8). The spell energies drain each other, mutually destroying both global effects.

[Design notes: See the Monsoon Rains spell for the battlefield effect of this spell.]