spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M/S
 

Is there any point in Niefel Jarls casting Breath of Winter, or do they already have all the cold aura that they can get? (I guess there must be a benefit from doing it or else they would refuse to do so.)

If I Mind Burn my enemy Communion Master, will it also damage the slaves?

Or to put it another way -- my enemy has got way too many communion spell casters and I'm trying to figure out which spells my spell casters should try to counter them.

Mind Burn is negated by magic resistance, but maybe if I give my Mind Burner lots of Astral Pearls...?

Thanks!

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M/S
 

More questions:

Suppose my Paladin has a Broadsword (damage 6) and Strength 13. Now suppose my pretender has Fire-9, so the Paladin, when blessed, gets Flaming Weapons. Flaming Weapons says "8 a.p. damage". Now is my Paladin going to do 13 + 6 + 8 + d, all 27+d of which is armor piercing? Or 13 + 6 + d, plus 8 armor piercing? Now suppose my enemy's pretender has a ring of fire resistance and 100% fire resistance. If my Paladin strikes him, is it going to do any damage? 27+d? or 19+d?

My Wish for Dom 3 is that these kinds of questions can be answered by playing the game instead of by asking on the forum. I don't think all such questions could be answered by the manual. It would be too much to write, too much to read, and anyway it is sometimes fun to discover things by playing that you can't discover by reading.

However, these questions should be answerable by playing the game. There should be some way I can determine whether my Niefel Jarl has more winter aura after casting Breath of Winter than he had before. There should be some way I could tell how much of my Paladin's damage is negated by the enemy pretender's fire resistance. Okay, that sounds challenging to design and code, but that's my Wish.

(I guess the third question *is* answerable by playing -- if I successfully Mind Burn the enemy Communion Master, then I will notice whether some of the Slaves also go poof.)

Regards,

Zooko

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M/S
 

AFAIK:

1) Breath of Winter does damage to non cold-immune things, chill does not, so Jotun Jarls do benefit from Breath of Winter.

2) Damaging a communion master with a spell (even a mind-affecting one) does nothing to the communion slaves.

3) The flaming weapons bless effect is a separate attack indepedent of all other attacks the blessed unit has.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

1. Err, did you mean that breath of winter damages cold-immune things and chill doesn't?

Does that mean Breath of Winter could damage my own cold-immune Jotun troops?

2. Any suggestions as to how to attack communion mages? My next attempt is "hordes of militia set to start at the front line and attack rear". Also some archers set to fire at enemy archers.

3. So, the broadsword stays unchanged and the Paladin makes another attack which is 8 a.p.? Does it add his strength? Does it increase his fatigue from making an extra attack?

3. b. How do you know this?

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Oh, I'll bet you meant that Breath of Winter does *damage* to non-cold-immune things, and Chill only increases fatigue of non-cold-immune things. Got it.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

BoW is, in fact, especially useful for the jots as their own regular troops are immune to it's effect.

the F9 blessing adds a bonus 8ap attack, no str added, to each of the sacred unit's attacks. it does not increase fatigue - i don't even think it has a seperate attack roll (ie one attack, two damage rolls).

as to taking down communions: area effect spells, flying units, flanking cavalry...

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Just clarifying the above post, were your blessed paladin to use a weapon in each hand, a flail or Sword of Swiftness, or otherwise have two or more primary attacks(Attacks which aren't #bonus, like horse hooves), he would get two or more 8 independent ap attacks.
By "independent", I mean that damage for these attacks is applied seperately, but methinks the jury is still out on whether or not they get their own attack rolls. Though obviously it'd make more sense for them not to have their own rolls.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

or, if you wished for a nataraja, gave him 4 swords of swiftness and boots of quickness and shroud of the battle saint, he would get an extra 16 8ap damage attacks... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

If he had four weapons (4 attacks), and each of the five items doubled the number of attacks he got, wouldn't he have one-hundred-and-twenty-eight attacks? Plus 128 extra 8ap fire attacks?

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

archaeolopt:

How do you know this? I mean, how did you figure out that the fire-9 bless effect added a separate damage instance instead of increasing the damage of the normal attack?

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

The Sword of Swiftness does not bestow Quickness on its wielder; it simply gives two attacks per turn. What would be even more fun would be this Natajara with Heroic Quickness, and a very high absurd value of 400% Quickness, or something along these lines.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

The devs told us a few months ago. I believe that the +8 AP attack only applies to attacks with the primary weapon however, so a unit with a flail will get 2 fire attacks, but a unit with two swords will only get one such attack.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

So there's a lot of information which is sort of "oral tradition" -- the devs talking about it on this forum. Illwinter and Shrapnel should keep in mind that that information is not part of the game as experienced by the "mass market" -- the majority of Dom 3 Users will probably never read this forum...

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

heh, yes, but for some this is part of the game's charm. even people who have been playing since Dom I are unsure about so many specifics...

heck, even the devs don't know a good proportion of the time http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

I'm okay w/not explaining the math everywhere, but I also wish I had some better understanding of some of these things. The damage determination calculations are very tough to understand.

One of the posters here, Liga has done a GREAT job of documenting most of these in his "FAQ" document (60 pages long, download available from the Illwinter Games website). But there are some (somewhat more basic) things that are just not real well explained, that I'd hope to see some kind of explanation for.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

I wonder if my Paladin's lance gets the fire bonus.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

I think all attacks from a blessed unit gets an extra fire dmg roll (flails having 2).
The fire attack always hits, as does poison on a poisoned weapon, but the poisoned weapon must also wound if the poison is to have any effect.

No secondary effects need a second attack roll IIRC, but some, like poison, must wound the target.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Yikes -- the fire attack always hits even if the attack misses? Sweet. No wonder my blessed flagellants tear into the enemy ranks so nicely.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Oops, I didn't mean that. But it hits regardless of damage done. You must still hit the target with the primary attack.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Hrm. I'm sorry, but I don't understand. Suppose my flagellant attacks the enemy, succeeds on the "to-hit" roll. Now he is going to do flail damage + flagellant strength + 2d6-OE - enemyprotection - 2d6-OE. Right?

Now suppose he is blessed and gets the fire attack. Then he does the above, and then after that he does 8 + 2d6-OE - (enemyprotection/2) - 2d6-OE ?

I guess that makes sense.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

yes. the flag will get an extra 8AP fire attack each time his weapon hits; whether or not the initial weapon attack actually does any damage.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Speaking about poison, I have found that blind Slayers are quite cabable of killing Mystics that have Quickened, Personal Lucked and Body Etherealed themselves. It seems the poison goes through every time. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif Has someone else noticed this or something similar?

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Yet another question about fire-9 blessing. Is the normal sword attack considered magic and can ignore ethereal? I guess it must be, because if the ethereal forces the normal sword attack to miss then the fire attack automatically misses, which would render its magicalness moot.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

New Communion question. When my Communion Master cast Body Ethereal, he became ethereal but the Communion Slaves didn't. I guess this is because Body Ethereal isn't "Area of effect: caster" ? Likewise, he could cast Personal Luck and thus help the Communion Slaves, but not Luck. Am I right?

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Yes, you are right: spells which target the caster affect the slaves too. I do not recall if Immolation worked at all, but it might be worth trying... Especially if coupled with Phoenix Pyre (if *that* works, that is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif )! Hmm, you could get rid of fatique by Earthpower, Earth blessing and Relief... Pity the Relief-caster will probably start casting Barkskins/Protections. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Not sure about the sword, I would gave saud that only the fire damage is considered magic but it doesn't seem to work with the answers of this thread... Good point with that.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Phoenix Pyre does indeed work on the communicants, but be warned that the results can be EXTREMELY ugly if your army is not entirely fire-immune.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

I think Phoenix pyre works.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

So what *should* work is anything with "Area of Effect: Caster", and what should not work is anything with "Area of Effect: something other than Caster". Right?

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Right.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Phoenix Pyre affects everything, even those fire immune. So you can't protect yourself really from it except with Phoenix Pyre or high regeneration/life drain.

Exploding communicants/slaves are particularly effective against anything that spams summons of any vareity. As long as you have a relief caster you can, for the most part, tire any SC/Army out except those with life drain.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

Oh... Sabbath Master and Slave would work too, right? And Vampire Counts/Lords have Blood, and are immortal... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Using WAE+FD pretender Black Forest Ulm could use Alteration buffs up to 4 or 5 and Ehterealize their units, and after level 7 and some Skulls of Fire + random picks... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif SP stuff, but could be fun!

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

i'm not sure what you're suggesting endoperez.

sabbath master/slave is currently not that useful. i don't see how immortality fits in w/ the discussion??? or why you are interested in skulls of fire

sabbath slave gives 100 fatigue, which makes it not so useful for phoenix pyre, unless you have a relief caster as well. not to mention micromanaging all the communion slaves.

Re: spell questions: Breath of Winter, Communion M
 

archaeolept
Oh, that's true... Damn. Reinvigoration doesn't work, does it?

I didn't realize Vampires would go unconcious at the first moment. I thought that I would be able to fly/stealth group of them to a nice position in positive dominion, then attack. If I somehow got *anyone* with atleast one fire and either blood or astral I could make him lead communion, and with Skull he would be able to cast Phoenix Pyre. I quessed they all would most probably die, so I would just give them some slaves while they fly out of the citadel to meet another flaming death...

Skulls wouldn't have been very good choice, though, as I now realize a single fire gem would be enough. It would have been nice to set up some major carnage with Vampire Counts exploding all over the battlefield, but it would only have been some strange single-player fun. I think those Counts would become feebleminded quite fast...