PBEM game: King of the Hill (Over)
 

The roster for the game is as follow:

- Cainehill: Abysia
- PhilD: Man
- Rainbow: T'ien Ch'i
- RonD: Pythium
- Sedna: Machaka
- The_Tauren13: Ermor

The definitive settings for this game are the following:

- Map: Theater of War (weights 6 mo), or any other symetrical game if such maps exist. I may have to make adjustments to this map however; more on this topic below.
- Number of players: 6 players.
- Independent Strength of 6.
- Difficult magic research.
- Zen's Pretender mod 1.81.
- 15 Hall of Fame entries.
- Special starting locations are switched on, and will be more or less identical.
- Graphs are off, but you will be given the rankings (and only the rankings) of all nations every five turns, unless all players would rather completely kill the graphs, and solely rely on their spies for intelligence gathering purposes.

The victory condition is to hold a central province, called the Hill, and to keep it under your control for 20 turns, not necessarily in a row. This condition starts from turn 10 onwards. Note that you will have to be in actual control of the province, or to be besieging it; being besieged does not count towards the victory condition.

A Last note about the hosting specifics, a.k.a. "The annoying part you are probably not interested in":
- The host (myself) will not be playing in the game, and will only set up the game and run the turns.
- If a player misses a turn, I will play a partial turn in her stead, if only to make the standard recruitment and putting the mages on research. If this absence is expected, I can make a more complete turn by following the orders of the missing player.
- The deadlines will be at a fixed hour, so any turn running earlier than expected will result in a longer deadline for next turn. In other words, if a game is scheduled to turn at 2000 GMT, and I received all the files at 1400, the game will run at 1400 and the next deadline will be on tomorrow at 2000. The game will only go ahead of the schedule if we gain a full day; for example, if I receive all the files by Sunday 1800 instead of Monday 1800, the next deadline will be on Tuesday 1800 and not Wednesday 1800 (as it would have been otherwise).
- Two mails will be used for this game; one of these addresses is very reliable and fast, but does not bounce when it fails to deliver a mail, while the other is just the opposite. Simply replying to my mail delivering the turn will use both mails by default. If one of the mails has bounced, feel free to resend it on both addresses, even if I have likely already received it on my other mail. It is far better to send twice the same turn than to stale the turn.
- Mails are sent individually, so you do not need to have a password since only you will get the file for your nation. The turns are sent in Zip files because of their supposed stability, but above all to help me avoid sending the turn files for the wrong game, and to warn me if I have forgotten to put back the current file in your mail. All turn files are backed up in my computer, barring a computer collapse.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I'd be interested - Theater is a neat map, especially if tweaked for 6 vice 12 players.


Getting the standings every 5 turns seems like a great compromise to the graphs, incidentally; I'd think that'd satisfy most of the people who either require or hate the graphs.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I have forgotten something about Theater: only land nations can play, as there is no sea province at all.

Cainehill, do you prefer the standard setup (where the Hill would be directly accessible through your fortress province), or the indirect access mentioned in my first post? I am not sure if the normal access makes the Hill too vulnerable, or if it is fine because of magical movement and the like.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Actually, the Version of the Theater map I have has the connections going to the small circular provinces on the outer edge of the inner sphere - following the white arrows, as you mention.

That leaves a good amount of maneuvering room as people attempt to get to the "Hill", which I think is better than having the capital fortress directly connected.

In particular, it changes the normal dynamic of expansion, since even if there are some appealing provinces in your sphere, you can't dawdle too long or someone else will get to the Hill and possibly win. Having 30 provinces all in your home sphere doesn't do any good if someone else took 7 provinces in a straight line to the center and got the hill.

I do think the SE sphere (Plains of Ermond) should be tweaked, even in the base Version of the map, because its connection is unlike all the others, which go deep into the outer sphere; the SE is a "shallow" link.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

This sounds like a fun game. I think it would clearly encourage early fighting which is often (in my fairly limited experience) absent as people decide to take independents rather than do anything interesting. For this reason I favor a shorter starting time— 10 turns versus 20.

It'll be very interesting to see how this develops. Will it Last long enough to be purely a battle of SCs and anti-SCs on the hill? I'm sure it will always prove interesting to have a scout sitting on the hill to watch...

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Interesting Cainehill. I wasn't aware of this modified map; could you please send me the map file? Thanks!

I believe there would be more or less seven provinces between the closest start point (which will be used) and the Hill, so taking the Hill on turn 10 seems doable. No wandering around of course, and it might actually make more sense to have a decent productivity with this setup.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

There was not a modified map; I should just have my eyes checked I guess.

A gentle bump as we are still looking for four more players.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I'd be willing to play in this. I'm far from being an expert player, but I like losing in MP.

If naming nations at this point is acceptable, I'd go for Man.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Welcome aboard! Feel free to claim dibs on the nation of your choice.

The rest of the settings will remain as usual by default, but can be changed if someone feels a serious heartburn on any of these items.
- Independent Strength 6
- Magic site frequency: 40
- Standard magic research
- Renaming activated
- Master password activated
- Ten entries in the Hall of Fame

I will upload the slightly modified Theater of War tomorrow, after making sure all starting provinces are equally close to the Hill. The only modifications are the change to the SE isle, the addition of the Hill, and the removal of six of the starting positions.

And something I failed to address previously: do you prefer a 24 hour turnaround, or do you need 48 hours per turn?

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Sounds like an interesting game. I would like to join it.

Not going to claim any specific nation just yet. Going to have a look at the map first, once it is uploaded.

24 hour turnaround is fine by me. Since it is a PBEM we can always slow down a bit later if people have problems meeting the deadline.

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Welcome aboard Rainbow!

I have finished doing my basic modifications to the map; it may not be complete yet, as I have not fully tested all six positions to compare their ease of access to the Hill. For example, I had set up one of the nations right in the middle of several farmlands, which would be harder to take than poorer provinces, and there may be other similar occurrences in the current Version.

The main changes are as follow:
- Removal of six starting points, and some changes of a few others (namely the ones that were two provinces away from the central outer province, instead of the regular three).
- Normalisation of the South East outer isle, as Cainehill pointed out.
- The former sea province near the South East isle (128) has been turned into fresh water, as it otherwise slowed down the SE player too much. (I am not too fond of my solution, and farmland seems rather odd in the middle of a lake, but...)

The main problem is that the colours of special provinces no longer matches with their true nature (in the case of a few starting points, and the SE central province). I will give the list of the six starting points when the game starts, as this information is available by simply looking at the map file, but the SE matter is a bit more annoying.

The current map file is attached to this post. You should download the Theater of War map from Illwinter, extract it in your maps directory, and do the same with the theater6.map file (attached to this thread).

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I will join as Ermor if I can convice you to play with difficult magic research.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I have no objection with Difficult research. So unless another player asks for a different setting, it will be Difficult research.

This game is still looking for one more player, and all the spots will be filled.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

This sounds interesting.

I'll take Pythium.

Any interest in using Zen's pretender mods?

I made a test game on the theater6 map in your attachment. Are you supposed to be able to walk across the arrows to the middle? My spy couldn't - or at least I couldn't figure out how to get him to do it.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

You aren't supposed to, although it is what I attempted the first time as well. Instead, there is one central province in your isle, leading to one province in the outer ring of the mainland. Setting the map to show all neighbouring provinces would probably be helpful to check which province neighbours which. The option can be found under Filters if memory serves.

So, the three following questions are left for the settings, and we will be set:
- Anybody objects to using Zen Pretender's mod?
- Are all of you fine with Difficult magic research?
- Do you wish to start with a 48 hours schedule?

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I would like to use Zen's pretender mod.
I would prefer starting at 24h.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Zen's pretender mod is fine with me.

Difficult research is fine by me too.

I prefer starting out with a 24 hours schedule.

I'll load up the pretender mod and have a look. Haven't tried playing with it before.

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I'd like to claim Machaka.

Pretender mod is a good idea, and I like difficult magic research too.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I'd be for Zen's pretenders, for 48QH, and neutral (no vote either way) about difficult research.

(I'd be fine going to 24 after the morning of the 27th, but have other obligations between the 21st and 6:45 on the 27th.)

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I'm OK with either 24 or 48 at the start, and in favor of difficult research.

I'm too much of a noob to actually understand the impact of Zen's pretender mod, but I figured that suggesting it would make me sound mucho sophisticado.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

So, Difficult research and Zen Pretenders mod it shall be. The Version used will be 1.81, which can be downloaded from there .

The initial turnaround will be set to 48 hours then, and will switch to 24 hours on the 27h if all players agree. It could then go back to 48 hours later on, if requested.

A Last remark: I intended to put some decoy VPs on the key provinces, but they unfortunately spread Dominion. Would this be fine with you, or is the effect too important? It would be two VPs for the central province in the outer isles, and one VP for all the capitals, and any value for the Hill. Their purpose would be to show where these provinces are, after the changes done to starting positions and one central province. (This information will otherwise be given in a mail, but that would be less convenient)

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Will the victory points spread dominion if capturing victory points is NOT the game winning objective? Will they be visible?

If the victory points spread dominion, I would prefer not having them.

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Now that I checked, the Yarnspinners game has both the VP icons, and no Dominion spread from them. The win condition is not VP in this game, and the VP icons are not due to the .tga (creating a new game with this map does not result in having the icons).

So, I would believe it is possible to have both, and will be meddling with the map to figure out how to do so. Of course, I could be hallucinating once more.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Feel free to start sending your Pretenders as soon as you want (you may want to wait for all players to choose their nations).

My main address is alneyan[AT]fastmail.co[DOT]uk, and alneyan[AT]gawab[DOT].com is used as a backup mail, and should always bounce when it fails to deliver a mail. (Replace the [AT] and [DOT] parts by @ and .)

The current player list is as follow:
- Cainehill: No nation picked yet
- PhilD: Man
- Rainbow: No nation picked yet
- RonD: Pythium
- Sedna: Machaka
- The_Tauren13: Ermor

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Alneyan, can you specify the exact victory conditions? If we only need to hold the hill for a relatively short time, we have to go for a quick pretender SC and take the hill. If we have to hold the hill for a total of 20 turns AND 7 consecutive, there may be a chance to get to some higher level research and allow for some other plays.

Also, what will the indies on the "hill" be like? Normal for the terrain type, or will there be a very hard group of indes with a hero guarding the hill?

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

The clock for "holding the hill" starts on turn 10, so a *quick* SC would probably not be needed. A SC would likely be needed however. The two conditions were supposed to be a "OR" case, where it was either seven turns in a row (pretty unlikely, but who knows?), or twenty turns in total. The first "in a row" condition could be removed though, leaving the only win condition as "hold the province for twenty turns".

While testing the modified map, I noticed I bLasted *all* the special independents back to the Void (I didn't intend to do it however). In the original game, there are Eternal Knights and a leader or two keeping three provinces leading to the Hill, with the Hill itself having a fairly powerful defence. However, all these three provinces have a fortification, and Independents never, ever, patrol their provinces; there is therefore no need to fight when just travelling through.

Would the players prefer the original setup (where you only have to battle the defenders if you want to take the "full" province), or something more common where all provinces have the regular defenders? The Last option would be to leave the defenders while removing the fortifications, but that would probably put too much focus on flying to avoid these battles (or simply make them "yet another bunch of independents", for powerful SCs).

Lastly, Zen's mod reduces the effectiveness of a few of the most common Pretenders (Ghost King to name but him), so SCs may be a bit weaker than before. And of course, there are five other nations that would love to get you out of the Hill, which should be expected to gather their forces against you. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Just an Idea: Perhaps you could load up the "Hill" with customary anti-SC troops and equipped units. Throwing a magicless Pretender with SC attack equipment (Forcing the Pretender to fight instead of cast until fatigue) with some Mandragoras and some flying resistant units (Bane Lords with equipment might work) to stop the cheese Wrathing of the Hill.

You could also try giving some commanders some Soul Contracts. So as time goes by there is more and more of a force to deal with at the Hill.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

My concern with making the Hill too heavily defended (for a turn 10 offensive) is that nobody would want to be the first one to go in; waiting for someone else to start clearing the defenders would be safer, and there would be a good chance of having a weaker enemy SC to take down.

Soul Contracts are nice, but again the winner of the battle could have one or two of them (if lucky), or nothing at all, which would be a fairly different situation. I suppose the Soul Contracts do not qualify as being "cursed", and do not have a higher chance of being picked up?

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Another Idea could be to put the Chisslick Swamp and Inkpot End in the Hill.

Of course these are just ideas, I'm not saying you should or you shouldn't, but it's always fun to make situations with these type of Take and Hold things.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I thought of putting these wonderful sites on the hill, but I was too gentle when making my first post. Now... Well, that could be a lovely idea, though there may be a problem with Ermor (which would not suffer in the least from these sites). Hmm...

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I'll go with, mmm, Vanheim.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I will take Tien Chi. I'll send the pretender tomorrow.

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

If there's no objections, I may reconsider Vanheim, largely because of Zen's mod - not many of V's pretenders were altered much, and I like having a go with the more mutated ones. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Should have a pretender ready tomorrow - Alneyan, send me an email when/if you have everyone elses and are waiting on mine.

One question - any reason for HOF setting of 10? I realize we only have 6 nations, so nominally 4 non-pretender slots (more if we have arch sages or immobiles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ) but generally HOF 15 gives a little more interest and oomph to the commanders.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

No problem with changing your nation now, as you did it quickly.

I picked HoF 10 because I am lazy, and happen to love even numbers. So it will be HoF 15, as there is no reason not to go with 15 spots.

The Last question (I promise) before being able to launch the game: does anyone want to have some special defenders? If so, inside fortresses (you could get the province with a mere scout), or outside? And along the same lines, would you like some nasty surprises on the Hill, or do you believe the other players should fight to get the Hill themselves?

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

ooh, put nasty surprises around the hill - that way everyone has a similarly irritating path to it.

(not that i'm in the game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif )

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Just sent my pretender.

However you set up the hill and the surrounding areas is fine by me. Go ahead and have some fun. The keeps with strong garrisons sounds interesting. We would be forced to take and hold them or risk loosing routing units from the hill with nowhere to go.

Would give someone holding the hill a chance to consolidate the position during turns where the hill is not under attack.

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Cainehill, it is not true that Vanheim has not been changed! Zen has completely reshaped the female Aesir, and, in my opinion, has made a pretender to rival the pre-nerf Vampire Queen in power, if not in ease to play.

I am playing her in Zombie's Craddle game, and I bet that Cohen is already thinking of how to get her 'balanced':-)

Oh, and if someone falls out before you guys start, sign me in as Caelum.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Yvelina : True, she's been upgraded and improved to where she's quite viable - but the changes, imo, didn't drastically change her nature.

Actually, I'm looking at Cohen's favorite nation - you know, the one he says is so horribly underpowered. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

In fact, I'll go so far as to claim it - pretender to be up tonight.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Oh, the one that Tuidjy took in the other Zombie game, so that he gets a chance to suffer a humiliating defeat? It seems that Cohen is doing wonders for Abysia's reputation.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Eh - I can only think of maybe two people who agree with Cohen about Abysia, and one of them is, like Cohen, a member of the "let's take a watch tower with Abysia!" school of thought.

Heck - despite how many times I've watched (well, helped) his Anya die, I've decided the Virtue can be a solid chassis, so I don't think he's yet disgraced Abysia or Virtues (unlike virtue - I've always said that a good vice was worth 3 virtues).

Say! We need a Vice pretender! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Alas, I believe you can pull out to besieged provindes without trouble, so long as you still own the siege; and a single unit is required to do so (I can never recall if you need a commander). So not taking a Hill fortress would only prevent you from being able to run behind the walls, among other things, and not taking a fortress in the vicinity of the Hill would have no consequence in your attempt to get the Hill. Of course, if the Independents could break your sieges... now that would be so much more funny.

Dibs for you Yvelina if/when someone withdraws before game start.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

The mystery of victory points has been solved. I did not see them spreading my Dominion in Yarnspinners because... well, I have no victory point to begin with. So we will have to do without victory points in this game.

I have made a few changes to the map, mainly making the provinces connecting outer isles and mainland smaller. They were heavily protected in the previous Version, but you could siege the province without any trouble, giving you half the taxes. Since these provinces will now be easier to fully conquer, I have made them generate less income, and they will be easier to take as a consequence (with less random defenders; I had anything between Militia and Slingers to Heavy Cavalry and their ilk).

I decided against throwing some surprises on the map. It was not mentioned in my first post, it would be very difficult to balance out, it may switch the focus from fighting your fellow players to waiting for one of them to challenge the independents, and no player involved in the game seemed to have a strong opinion either way. It will certainly be considered if, or when, I make a similar game, but I preferred not to experiment too much without warning.

The newer map is attached to this post. Barring any major problem, it will be the one used in the game.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Sorry I wasn't active these Last few days...

I haven't had a look at the map yet, but I'm still in (as Man). I just don't even know how to reach Alneyan by email, but I'm pretty sure I'll find a way http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I have given my mail(s) earlier in the thread, but as it may be lost somewhere caught between two Posts about the map... My main mail, which should be displayed in my profile, is alneyan[AT]fastmail[DOT]co.uk (replacing AT and DOT by @ and .)

I also have a backup mail, used because it bounces when it fails to deliver a mail, unlike my main address. This backup would be alneyan[AT]gawab[DOT]com. If Gawab bounces, feel free to resend the mail until it makes it.

Zen's Pretender Mod 1.81 should be used while making your Pretender; it can be downloaded from there .

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Give the newbie enough time, and he will change his mind...

At least I did, anyway - I sent you a new pretender just now (still Pythium - I'm not quite *that* indecisive).

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

On the most recent map, with the fixed starting positions, only one starting position have 5 adjacent provinces, with most others having only 3.

The SW circle (Osaii Valley) has quite a lot of wasteland, with low population, compared to the other areas. Perhaps it would be better to have the capital in province 81 of that circle instead?

That said, I'll be fine with playing with the current setup as well, just hoping I won't start in Osaii. :-)

/Rainbow

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Being in a wasteland could be an advantage, because defenders would tend to be weaker. I could add one better province or two without upsetting the balance though. (Osaii has similar provinces in both provinces)

This starting point should indeed not be there. I will put the starting point in 198 back to 205, which was my initial choice (and the better one).

Any other comments before I release the final Version? That one will be both posted here, and sent in the first mail.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

I will take Marigorn, If you dont mind this being my first mp game, and that i need some one to explain to me how pbem works.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

My mistake. I forgot to edit the first post and the title, to state the game was no longer looking for new players. It was made for six players, no more, no less, and we have reached this number.

The settings post has been edited for clarity, and updated.

Re: PBEM brainstorming: King of the Hill
 

Any ETA on the start date / time?