Are we absolutely sure....
 

...that Mineral Scanners don't stack with Robotoid Factories?



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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

I'm not sure at all, but I think I remember reading that the only facilities that stack are the System-wide ones and not the Planet-only ones. If this is the case, they would not (Mineral Scanners are planet fac's, but you knew that already...).

I am not running the 1.27 patch, but weren't they supposed to "fix" the stacking of System Facilities.

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

For crying out loud, Spyder. If you didn't believe us in the other thread, go test it yourself! http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif I just took a minute (acutal time) and tested it (again). They don't stack.

Scanners and the robotoid facilities didn't even stack before the 1.27 patch. If you still don't believe me, start a high tech game with no one else, build a robotoid facility, then build a scanner. Note the lack of increase in resources after building the scanner. End of test. I'm not sure what the problem is. http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...s/confused.gif

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

It's not that I don't believe you...it's that it just doesn't make sense. I'm also trying to figure out if it was intentional, and if it was, I was hoping that if we made enough noise they'd fix it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 02 March 2001).]

[This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 02 March 2001).]

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spyder:
It's not that I don't believe you...it's that it just doesn't make sense. I'm also trying to figure out if it was intentional, and if it was, I was hoping that if we made enough noise they'd fix it http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/images/icons/icon7.gif

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

not very likely. they use the same ability type, resouce % bonus. its just that the robotoid have one ability for each resource type. the only way to change it would be to create a whole new ability that does the same thing, otherwise you would end up with people being able to add multiple robotoids per planet.

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

The reason that this doesn't make sense is because it completely eliminates the need to research Minerals, Organics & Radioactives at all. I just need to research Planet Usage to get Monoliths, and Computers to get Robotoid Factories & System Robotoid Factories. Why even bother with the others?



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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

I have to agree, it doesn't make sense. I usually never bother researching any of the individual resource branches. I get the impression that some stuff is just thrown into the tech tree to fill it out, without balancing. Weapons are another problem area.

Maybe they just figured it's close enough and someone else would mod it to balance things better, who knows...

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

Actually, i am all for "dead ends" in the research tree, it makes players looking into what they should research instead of wasting their time.

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Drake:
I have to agree, it doesn't make sense. I usually never bother researching any of the individual resource branches. I get the impression that some stuff is just thrown into the tech tree to fill it out, without balancing. Weapons are another problem area.

Maybe they just figured it's close enough and someone else would mod it to balance things better, who knows...<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

*grumble*

Stupid AI is researching the heck out of Organics right now INSTEAD of Stellar Manipulation.

Somewhere down the line, with Zeno's help, we are going to have a full suite of programs for editing the AI files and will be able to (more) easily edit the tech research files to cutout all the dead end research that the AI currently does.

Since the AI isn't adaptive, the best way to get a challenging game seems to be to re-design their research and ship-desigs to counter the stuff you are going to research and put on your ships.

Someday...

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Spyder:
The reason that this doesn't make sense is because it completely eliminates the need to research Minerals, Organics & Radioactives at all. I just need to research Planet Usage to get Monoliths, and Computers to get Robotoid Factories & System Robotoid Factories. Why even bother with the others?

<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

That's why I advocate splitting "Value Improvement" facilities into three seperate techs and putting those three techs in the upper levels of each resource type. Think about it. Why would ONE technology improve both mineral availability and organic fertility??? Weird. So, have them as seperate technologies in their respective fields. This is much more logical and would give you a reason to research those higher levels. This leaves ONLY atmosphere related techs in Planet Usage. Just drop the Atmosphere Modification plants down to 4/5/6 in Planet Usage and increase the basic research cost a bit.

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

A better solution would be to give us more levels in each individual technology, say add in "Mineral extraction plant IV", monoliths only go up to level three, that way a level IV mineral extraction plant with the sesmic detection stuff you already get at level for of minerals would pull out more minerals each turn then the highest ranking generalized monolith facility.

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

Yep, that is what I was thinking Windborne....give us something that will out produce the monolith. That way if you need minerals, it'll be more efficient to put mineral plants than monoliths.

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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

Specialized facilities ALREADY outproduce Monoliths (at the same tech level, of course). For instance, a Mineral Miner generates 800, 900 or 1000 minerals vs. 500, 700, or 900 minerals from a Monolith. Or did you want the resource-specific facilities to generate triple the amount of a Monolith, to make up for the fact that a Monolith generates some of each resource? Although you should also bear in mind the relative costs to build those facilities in the first place (resource-specific facilities are much cheaper than Monoliths).

The only reason I can see for Scanners (or whatever) vs. Robotoid Factories is the build cost. If you have a planet (or system, for the system-wide facilities) that only produces a particular resource, it's cheaper to build the appropriate bonus facility instead of the Robotoid Factory. HOWEVER, the research costs for the resource-specific bonus facilities may not be worth the cost savings. Especially since you also get research and intelligence bonus facilities while researching the Robotoid Factories.

In all, I think some of the facilities were balanced in terms of a high-tech start, but not in terms of a low-tech start. As for the weapons, there've been weapon balance problems since SE3 and SE2. Carriers in SE2 were practically unbeatable; Ripper Beams in both SE2 and SE3 were fairly useless, but Wave Motion Guns were great; Graviton Hellbores in SE3 cost too much to research for the damage ratio. And now in SE4, fighters seem a bit more balanced (though not perfect, it seems); WMG's may now cost too much to research (especially since you have to get Propulsion 8 or 10 or something just to research High-Energy Weapons, and then do all the research to get WMG's). Graviton Hellbores are easier to research than in SE3; the damage ratio still isn't great, but it's practically the only direct-fire weapon with Range 8 (except for WMG's, Anti-Proton Beam 12's, and some of the Organic weapons).

Ah well, enough off-thread ranting...

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

You are correct, DT, but.....

For the research cost to get there, Miners III are worth far less than Monoliths III because you must research ALL THREE resource trees to gain the 1000, where, with Monoliths you need only research Planetary Usage where you gain other techs as well.

The Monolith facilities, because they'll mine EACH of the resources, are way more efficient overall. The 100 resource difference between the Monolith III and the Miner III is too small. Like someone said below, if we had a Miner IV & V that significantly outproduced the Monolith Facility, we could mine single resource planets because it'd be more efficient then to build Miners V on a planet that only has plentiful minerals, or, in a case where you need minerals very badly.


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

Monoliths are also much more expensive. If you do add more levels for standard extractors you will make monoliths completely useless.

Re: Are we absolutely sure....
 

I don't thnk so Daynarr....first, you need 1 of each type (3 total) of resourcer to produce what one monolith produces. On planets with two or more resources worth mining, monoliths will still be more efficient because of the facility limit. The only time it'd be better for a resourcer on those planets is when you have a huge need for one particular resource.

So, I'd make a IV that yields 1200 resources and put it at least two more hops down the tree from the III and probably not make a V.

This would also tend to put the Scanners back in the useful Category because on planets where you are mining a single resource, those would be more efficient than the robotoid factories.


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Spyder, Chairman of the Arachnid Consortium

[This message has been edited by Spyder (edited 06 March 2001).]