Frozen Heart
 

This spell looks very powerful : at first I thought it did "cold" damage, but I saw Banes die to it, is it really "undescript unprotectable" damage ? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif
In this case it's not logical either that it should affect undead, they should be immune... And it's a definitive SC counter on the plus side http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/Injured.gif

Re: Frozen Heart
 

I've noticed the same thing, it looks like it's bugged. Same thing as Blindness affects fire immune creatures, which just doesn't seem right...

Edi

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Hmm, I presume that a frozen heart should be somewhat uncomfortable to an 100% cold immune seraph as well. Maybe serpahs should not be 100% cold immune, or maybe FrozenHeart should affect cold immune beings, but should not work on heartless beings...
(Maybe lifeless should be immune then, but freezing the mechanics of a mechanical man could be nasty too?)

(I think I already said somewhere else already that I do not like 100% immunities happening too often anyway... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

Re: Frozen Heart
 

IMHO a "freezing heart" attack could affect cold-immune beings but not those not relying on an heart to function, so Undead and Lifeless should be immune, but Demons and Seraphs, Niefels and so on would be affected.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Are you saying that nothing, neither magic resistance nor cold resistance, will protect you against a spell that is usually cast twice per turn, with decent range, ridiculously low casting requirements, and damage that increases with caster level?

I'm off to try that. Somehow I doubt it...

Re: Frozen Heart
 

It's offset by the fact that the AI often decides not to cast it, even with a valid vulnerable target. My seraphs, scripted for haste / FH x4, aren't frozen hearting at all, and die to miserable R'lyan assassins with bronze breastplate.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

I would say ideally, say for Dom 3, there might be a new property for which units have and need hearts or not.

Meanwhile, it's not the ultimate SC killer. I tried it as TC with abundant mages who can cast it, and it seemed to me it was being resisted by magic resistance, although occasionally it did some damage. It's an OK counter, but not an ultimate weapon. Ethereal crossbows and massed flame arrows worked better... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ... at least without any missile counter-magic.

Frozen Heart is a really strong spell though... in Dom 2, I think it would be best if cold immunity AND magic resistance both offered protection.

PvK

Re: Frozen Heart
 

It only targets one unit, requires alteration 6, and does less damage than both incinerate and thunderstrike. It's also the most likely spell to be resisted of all three of those, since it does cold damage. Making it also require a MR check would unnecessarily neuter it, since none of the other damaging elemental spells require magic resist rolls.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Shouldn't lightning be resisted by lightning immunity and magic resistance then also? After all - it gets researched _much_ earlier in the game, also does armor negating damage, and has a much more useful longer range.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

This thread is confusing me. So is Frozen Heart resisted by CR or not?

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Yes but I think Incinerate is affected by FR and TS by SR, or isn't it the case ? (else I'm an idiot, if I had known that I'd performed better against those damned Ice Devils w/Ring of Lightning) ! [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Well it would seem like frozen heart should only work on things that don't like cold. If cold-immune undead are being hurt by it, than I expect cold-immune ICE ELEMENTALS are too, no?

Whether various undead types should be hurt by frozen heart or not... seems unknowable - one would just expect the devs to decide and if you're lucky, to give hints before you have to try it in practice.

But there are some other effects in the game which mention hearts, and some creatures which might not be expected to have them (vine creatures, golems, claymen, elementals, mummies, horrors, illusions, ghosts, spirits, etc.) or not to need the ones they might have (undead), or not to mind them being frozen (ice creatures, undead).

The reasons I suggested MR AND CR for Dom 2 were that:
1) PDF reported CR was not protecting, but it seems like it should, especially since in Dom 2, I expect it is the only way to specify that a creature should be immune to it, like an ice elemental or mechanical man.
2) MR does already seem to protect against it, or so it seemed to me when I tried it. So I assume that is the devs intent, and wouldn't argue with it. Also, it seems correct, as it is a Water-1 spell, even if it is Alt-6, so otherwise it would be seem to me a really cheap automatic hit.

As for comparing to lightning, shock resistance IS currently working there, and it also requires hitting with a missile effect and accuracy (doesn't frozen heart automatically hit?).

As for comparing to incinerate, well that too is a weenie auto-hit spell which I believe is resisted both by fire resistance and by MR. IIRC, it requires more fire magic, but does more damage. Seems in line with frozen heart being resisted by both MR and FR, to me.

PvK

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Most of the problem would be solved by making all lifeless creatures ignore heart affecting effects (like heartfinding), and just adding the lifeless tag to all undead and elemental creatures (elementals, seasonal spirits, elemental royalty). In this case the vine creatures are still shafted, aswould logically be manikins, mandragora nad carrion creatures (which are arguably a special case of undeath due to the vine animation). Then redefining Frozen Heart as not affecting lifeless cretures.

Edi

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

Lightning has +7 precision, and the fact that it's A2 requires that you will already have a base precision of at least 12. 19 precision spells don't miss very often.

Incinerate is certainly not affected by MR, and it tends to do less damage than the other fire spells anyways, so that doesn't matter too much.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Forzen Heart is armor negating.

Instant hit killing one (non-cold-resistant) human or comparable unit is not that frightening by the time one has level 6 spells. It is almost always two because you'll already have Quickness when you get Frozen Heart, but unless your enemy has all-undead armies lead by few living mages I don't think it will be automatic win.

This was written as if cold resistance worked against it, as I think it should. Frozen Heart already doesn't affect any inanimate targets, by the description. I think that means Statues and Golems, and might include elementals and the like. On the other hand, I think it *should* affect elemental royalties. Both thematically and by game mechanics.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

> Are you sure you aren't just seeing the results of a good armour roll on the part of the targeted unit?

If it were, then twere another bug, since Frozen Heart says it's armor-negating.

> Well, it's not like water has anything else going for it on the battlefield, so that's really not that much of an issue.

If it's not an issue to you to have level-1 skill give a spell that can kill or greivously injure humans regardless of armor with practically no failure chance, then your tastes in game balance are simply quite different from mine. Which is what it is and ok.

> Lightning has +7 precision, and the fact that it's A2 requires that you will already have a base precision of at least 12. 19 precision spells don't miss very often.

Ok, but it can miss, and I've seen it miss many times. AFAIK it counts as a missile too and so has another resistance. It appears Frozen Heart can't miss.

> Incinerate is certainly not affected by MR,

Ah, thanks.

> and it tends to do less damage than the other fire spells anyways, so that doesn't matter too much.

Well, to me, it is a good spell to compare too, and an importantly deadly one compared to others - even other fairly good (but not great) fire spells. Again, because it never misses and skips armor, and does enough damage to kill most human-sized targets in 1 or 2 shots. I've seen many folks get into the hall of fame just by loaning them a Phoenix Rod for a few battles.

PvK

Re: Frozen Heart
 

That doesn't matter. You still get damage + 2d6OE - 2d6OE even when a spell is armour negating.

If a mage that costs 100 or more gold can't kill more than that cost in units during the course of the battle once you've done much spell research, then you have a balance problem. A single expensive unit is vulnerable, and has to be able to do more (hopefully much more) damage than its cost in order to be worthwhile.

Spells always hit if they land in a square with a unit. This includes the spells with single target areas of effect like lightning and nether darts.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

That doesn't matter. It's still damage + 2d6OE - 2d6 OE, which can fairly easily work out to little or no actual damage with the small damage potential of frozen heart.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

I've just ran some tests with frozen heart and Version 2.14. I tried it out against non-lifeless, non-cold immune troops such as ghouls and archers, against lifeless cold immune troops such as longdead, and against caelum troops. It will target longdead, if there are no other suitable targets, but will not damage them. It does not damage Caelum's troops either. It will kill non-cold immune troops, but not always with one hit as they may roll a lucky number for their damage reduction.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Thanks for the tests Graeme. That does help clear things up.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

> That doesn't matter. You still get damage + 2d6OE - 2d6OE even when a spell is armour negating.

Ok, good to know.


> If a mage that costs 100 or more gold can't kill more than that cost in units during the course of the battle once you've done much spell research, then you have a balance problem. A single expensive unit is vulnerable, and has to be able to do more (hopefully much more) damage than its cost in order to be worthwhile.

Not really, for several reasons, such as:

* Mages can do other things besides kill units directly in battle.
* Hopefully, your mages don't die every time they appear in a battle.
* It's just not true that a unit has to do more damage in terms of gold than its own worth to be worthwhile.

Also, that reply doesn't address what I see as the main point of my remark, which was that there was extremely little chance of failure, and practically no way to counter, according to the original observation about Cold Resistance not working. Of course, recent observations refute that claim anyway, making this whole thread a bit silly at this point.


> Spells always hit if they land in a square with a unit. This includes the spells with single target areas of effect like lightning and nether darts.

Ok, but Incinerate and Frozen Heart have Precision 100, which means they always do hit their target square. Lightning has Precision 7, meaning there is a reasonable chance to hit, or sometimes to hit your own units. Huge difference there.

PvK

Re: Frozen Heart
 

And about the Ghouls (or other non-mindless undead) : are they targeted ? Killed ? I'm pretty sure I saw a Bane killed by FH (that was the reason of the thread..), was I wrong ?

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Ghouls aren't cold-resistant, so yes, they are targeted and killed.

Re: Frozen Heart
 

Shouldnt it affect ghouls anyway?

I am somewhat unsure about a ghoul's metabolism, but since they are not amphibians unlike other undead, it suggests that they need to breathe. If you need to breathe, then you should better have a functioning heart as well to pump around the stuff you got out of the air, no?

Re: Frozen Heart
 

> Spells always hit if they land in a square with a unit. This includes the spells with single target areas of effect like lightning and nether darts.

This is not entirely true. Some spells (mostly projected missiles like blade wind and fire darts) don't. Lightning is an exception to the projected missile rule as bodies attract lightning.