Natives
 

I've seen a lot of stuff in another post, I believe it was the wish list, about native civilizations but all the suggestions either made the races pushovers, or told why other suggestions wouldn't work. So I'm starting this post to propose a system I think would work and still provide a challenge. It may have a few bugs, but I think it can be done. Please tell me what you think.
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Native races consist of species which are still confined to their home planet, but are not necessarilly stupid, merely undeveloped. At the beginning of the game you may start out with many of these tiny races each developing in their planetary womb, blissfully unaware of the aliens who have begun to travel from star to star. These races would come in four varieties:

(1) The most basic native race is of course the pushover race with no technology at all, it's civilization hasn't yet reached the industrial age and you can probably take it over really easilly, at the cost of gaining an unhappy population and no new technology at all.

(2) After that comes a race that has reached at least the level of technology we had during the two world wars, they may still be fighting amongst themselves and can build most facilities, small troops, even espionage centers. Destroying them might be easy, conquest would be much harder especially as the game goes on.

(3) Going up on the scale you reach the level where the natives are putting up defensive satelites around their world, they may also be able to build fighters to explore and defend their system. A race with very basic space travel like us in 1985-1990.

(4) Finally you reach a level of technology where the first space stations are going up, this is a race that has just begun reaching for the stars but hasn't yet developed the technology to colonize any other planets or build ships capable of traversing warp the points.

One advantage of this system is that the "Native races" could build up over time as other races died off or were conquered. If a class two race was destroyed suddenly a class one native civilization somewhere in the galaxy might enter the industrial age, and if a class three civilization was destroyed later on that class two might suddenly begin lofting it's first satellites. Eventually class four natives would be elegable to become minor races, and minor races could graduate to becoming full players when I eventually destroy the vile Turlog Empire! LOL

Re: Natives
 

Sounds like a great idea if it can be implemented. Tell MM.

One problem that I see, however, is with your idea of the natives graduating to higher class levels. Keep in mind that 10 turns equals a year, so even if your game Lasted 1000 turns that would only be, in reality, 100 years...that, again in reality, is not enough time for races to realistically develop from one level of technology to the other, except, perhaps in the case of going from your 3rd to 4th levels...even then, it would take the entire game for them to do so.

Still I think most of the concept was a great idea. I have mentioned before that I would also like to see the number of neutrals expanded.

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"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: Natives
 

I like the idea but why do we assume the are underdeveloped? Why not a race of techincally superior beings who have figured out how to make do on only one planet and have no desire to expand?
I'd like to see neutrals who had superior weapons then they wouldn't be such pushovers.

Re: Natives
 

Dirkhowitzer:

Keep in mind how little the tech level changes from one class to another, twenty years from 1950 to 1970 was enough to put us from the world war era all the ways into the space age, and ten years after that Mere was going up. Some races may be smarter then us, others may take much longer to progress, especially if you make the chance of any one race advancing small and only let them advance when a higher ranking race has been destroyed. Of course usually i play with other human players so our games Last a minimum of four to five hundred turns in a large galaxy without the ability to steal/trade techs.
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Nitram Draw:

I didn't suggest such a race because minor races that start out with only one colonizable planet in their system seem to fit the bill perfectly, though it might be fun to create such a minor race with a special text file to make them seem old wise and maybe a bit tired.



[This message has been edited by Windborne (edited 05 March 2001).]

Re: Natives
 

Also consider the option of a native race that *could* develop space faring technology, but is not motivated to do so. Such races could have advanced weaponry, large weapons platforms, satellites, fighters, etc., and just not make space ships.

A race on a single planet, call it large and well developed, with a massive planetary shield generator, a well developed industrial base, lots of high-tech fighters, and a pile of weapons platforms, could be a tough nut to crack.

Just a thought...

- John

Re: Natives
 

I like this idea. It sounds like it could be easy to stick pre-space flight races in. just make neutrals that have no colonization tech.

I think that neutrals should get a bouns on their weapons. Like a racial modifier that gives them insane power or extreme range on all the normal weapons with out having to edit the weapons tables.

Give a neutral race a sphere world in the beginning. They researched all the stuff to make planets and made themselves a sphere world and moved into it. Now that would be a tough nut to crack.

Re: Natives
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windborne:
Dirkhowitzer:

Keep in mind how little the tech level changes from one class to another, twenty years from 1950 to 1970 was enough to put us from the world war era all the ways into the space age, and ten years after that Mere was going up. Some races may be smarter then us, others may take much longer to progress, especially if you make the chance of any one race advancing small and only let them advance when a higher ranking race has been destroyed. Of course usually i play with other human players so our games Last a minimum of four to five hundred turns in a large galaxy without the ability to steal/trade techs.<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

You make a good point. I guess I should've said perhaps natives starting out before the industrial age shouldn't be allowed to advance...after all it took us thousands of years to get to the industrial age. After that things progressed much more quickly. Unless, of course, this particular civilization progressed more quickly than we mere humans;-).

As for neutrals getting bonuses and such, I've always opposed this as well due to another realism factor. In the real world how long would little "neutral" country such as Cuba, Switzterland, Panama, etc...Last against a much larger power such as the US if we really decided that we wanted that country? Not very long...I do think, however, that a diplomatic penalty should be charged to the Empire that slaughters the neutrals because, once again alluding to the real world, if the USA ever decided to decimate some small nation such as Cuba/Switzerland/Panama, etc...the worldwide outrage would be enormous. Trade sanctions would be imposed etc...Therefore I don't think neutrals should be given bonuses, but I do think they should be protected by the fact the the other AI's would hate you if wiped the neutrals out. Kind of like in MOO 2 when the AI's got angry when you used biological weapons and the like.



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"He's dead, Jim."-- Lt. Commander Leonard "Bones" McCoy |Chief Medical Officer / USS Enterprise (NCC-1701)

Re: Natives
 

Another way to protect the neutral races would be to give them special racial techs.

Then if you wipe them out, the techs are lost, but if you keep them alive, you can capture their ships & use the flux capacitor cannon that they put on.

PS: the flux cannon would be somthing like the temporal shift-em-to-beginning-of-time device, but would smear the ship out over all time instead.

Re: Natives
 

Once discovered, natives might advance much more quickly than they would otherwise progress if left undisturbed. That is a dominant theme in many sci-fi sagas. For instance, how many StarTrek episodes mention the "prime directive?"

Remember, in SEIV there are supposed to be scads of independent traders roaming the galaxy. The unscrupulous ones would be willing to trade technology for a green Orion slave girl.

Plus, empires would have their own reasons for "helping" the "natives." I think a good example would be native populations on Earth who encountered European empires. It didn't take the Plains Indians (e.g., Lakota Sioux) very long to incorporate metal knives, horses, and rifles into their culture.

Re: Natives
 

It's hard to imagine a stone age culture STAYING stone age for long after my ships enter the system, for one thing it would be in my best interest to give them a gift of, for example, mining technology so they could trade with me. And if I ever planned on conquering them I'd want to make sure that:

(A) They had something built on the planet I could use
(B) they were somehow defended against my rival human players, ground troops and one of MY space stations in the air at the least. lol

Which brings up a point I had not thought about, how much of my technology should a level 1 culture be able to understand? There should certainly be limits or we'll all simply raise the natives up to full player status in a few turns.

I suggest that we limit them to level one of anything they couldn't research themselves, and block their ability to gain certain techs at all, things like steller manipulation for example.

Re: Natives
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by Windborne:
how much of my technology should a level 1 culture be able to understand? There should certainly be limits or we'll all simply raise the natives up to full player status in a few turns<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>
In Asimov's first Foundation novel, the planets surrounding the Foundation are still using Imperial technology but haven't a clue as to how it works. Later, the Foundation introduces more technology, but in the guise of a religion, with the hierarchy of course all being unbelieving Foundationers. (That's Asimov the Agnostic for you!)

Anyway, my point is that low-tech populations can be taught to use very high-tech stuff. (Like, 4-year-olds who can operate PCs and camcorders [and shoot guns].) Really, if you think about it, how much science and technology does the average American, European, Japanese, etc. properly understand? Heck, I'm a physicist and one of the world's smartest people http://www.shrapnelgames.com/ubb/ima...ons/icon12.gif and I don't understand most of it!

Re: Natives
 

I forgot to say that maybe primitives shouldn't be allowed to research anything, even after being given lots of tech.

But maybe not. Who's to say that primitives wouldn't be quick studies? They might even be inherently smarter than tech-reliant races. Do you really think you're smarter than Isaac Newton, just because you've got better tech?

But some races might react strongly against tech, because of religious or cultural reasons. What if you run the risk of "infecting" your own society with a "Back to the Forests" movement or a pacifict movement? Maybe contacting primitives should have some big risks attached! What other risks might there be?

Re: Natives
 

One risk might be the evolution of the "Pirate races" talked about in a previous post, with their own ai, the natives take your ships, and modify their own tech to learn boarding, suddenly they are attacking your fleets and planets, co-opting them into their own little parasite-empire, entirely reliant on pillage from higher races bacause they are unable to build their own ships or even really repair yours!

Re: Natives
 

One trait or consequence of meeting a native race might be disease. Maybe there should be an increased chance of plague for both the native and the explorer.

Re: Natives
 

Wasn't there a Star Trek episode like that? Where there was a race that would force others into giving them higher technologies by, for one thing, hold Jordi hostage, but didn't really understand how to repair od produce it themselves.

Re: Natives
 

Yes, there was just such an episode.

Relevant episodes from the classic ST:

"A Piece of the Action" -- the one with the gangsters. They were quick studies in imitating the Feds.

title unknown -- the Klingons are giving tech to the townspeople who then begin to prey on Kirk's hillpeople friends.

title unknown -- the Klingons and UFP are fighting over this planet full of primitive pacifists, who turn out to be extremely advanced.

"Spock's Brain" -- the givers of pain and delight (the women) live inside the planet while the men live outside. They are descendants of a super-advanced race, but don't understand the tech at all.

How many relevant episodes can YOU think of?

Re: Natives
 

<BLOCKQUOTE><font size="1" face="Verdana, Arial">quote:</font><HR>Originally posted by dmm:
title unknown -- the Klingons and UFP are fighting over this planet full of primitive pacifists, who turn out to be extremely advanced.
<HR></BLOCKQUOTE>

Ah, yes, the Organians... aka "Big Blue Light Bulbs"...

Re: Natives
 

Yes lots of star treck episodes deal with variations of this, or of the minor races, but the question is how to best put them in the game so they will be interesting and dynamic parts of it, not just roadkill for big empires? LOL

Re: Natives
 

How about random natives, give some or all of the native races some special tech that they either start with or have capability of reaching. However, in order to obtain it you must either capture or have them join you. Then, you have the Tech only from that one planet, if for ship you can only put on ship built at that planet and you only have it so long as you control planet, if you lose planet for whatever reason, you lose tech until recaptured. This would or could make them much more important to control or fight over. just an idea Mac5732

Re: Natives
 

They tried something like that in Birth of the Federation, you built a special facility and the effect was either system or empire wide, it worked pretty well unless you accidentally over did it and killed every one in the system and then it was forever lost, this made the minor races verry important because some of the structures bordered on vital to survive, such as research modifiers, the races then had to be treated carefully and the destruction of one was a loss to the entire galaxy.

The minor races had a cool little defensive mecansism, defence platforms, witch acted like really powerful ships that couldn't leave the system, ie. mines, they could make a ship hurt bad by the time it reached the planet and actually got to take over it was sometimes so weak from battle that it was repelled.

There was also something that was important though for certin Empires (ie. federation) bombarding caused revolts, while with say cardasians it 'silenced dissidents' and made the populations happier. But as a balance the feds could negotiate better so often the minor races got pulled into the empire and became 'members', really they became protectorates from the evil romulans oh noooo!