10 Turn Challenge!
 

I am a newbie learning the ropes. One exercise I've been trying against the AI is what I call the 10 Turn Challenge. The idea is to experiment with different setups and strategies to get a strong start, yet keeping the map and settings constant. If anyone is interested in comparing their results, I'd love to get an AAR.

Use the Talis map against one AI-controlled nation with Normal AI. (I have been playing against Jotunheim, but the opponent will be far enough away that it shouldn't make much difference in the first 10 turns.) Set independent strength to 6 and keep the rest of the default settings. Create your pretender and play 10 turns. Play with the idea of creating a position that would be strong in many different situations, not of crushing the particular opponent in this map. Use the information at the beginning of Turn 11 for your report.

Here is an example. I'm setting the bar pretty low. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

1. Pretender/Setup

Great Sage, F3 A4 W3 E3 S4 D2 N4 B1, Arcosephale Golden Age, Sloth 1, Dominion 5, Watch Tower, vs. Jotunheim.

2. Results

Research (73 rp): Conj 4, Alt 2, Evoc 2, Con 2, Ench 2, Thau 2, Bl 0
Gems: A 22+2, E 22+2, S 11+1, D 8+1, N 8+1
Treasury 139, Total Income 196, Upkeep 57
6 provinces
Magic Sites outside home: Arena, Chillsick Swamp

3. Future Goals

Continue territory expansion with mercenaries plus 1-2 mystics. Continue to recruit one philosopher or mystic per turn for research. Continue to concentrate on Conjuration research for summoning spells. Build a fort to secure the middle of the continent.

4. Evaluation and Comments

Expansion was below par. I was recruiting mostly commanders (almost all researchers), with only a few troops to make up for early casualties. For expansion, I relied on mercenaries, which were less frequently available than usual. I lost one battle and barely won another battle. In the past, research has been about 20 rp/turn higher because of finding a library and recruiting sages.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

I took this data from a game in which I was testing something:

Caelum: (turn 11)

Pretender: Vampire A3,W2,E3,S5,D3,B3 (level 4 by turn 11)
Research: 104rp - Alt2, Const4, Evo4+
Gems: A39+4, W2+2, S18+5+2(clams)
Gold: 305, income 348, Upkeep 113
Provinces: 8, only two pretender searched, except for arcane probing

Notes: Prophet dead, I forgot to change his script when I should have.


Jotunheim: (turn 11)

Pretender: Son of Niefl A5,W3,E3,S5,D3 (level 3)
Prophet: Niefel Jarl level 2
Research: 60rp - Alt2, Const3+
Gems: A5+1, W1+5, E10+2, S12+0+4(clams), D22+2, N5+1
Gold: 674 (lucky event on turn 11), income 345, upkeep 111
Provinces: 9, most of them pretender or prophet searched

Notes: Temple burned down.


These is not a very good start against the AI, but I consider it a good start
for a multiplayer game, where you do not want to appear too big or too strong
too early. If you are really looking for impressive numbers, some nations, like
Abysia, can easily hit twenty provinces by turn 11, but then, at least when
played by Cohen, they hit 0 provinces by turn 30, after having pissed off their
neighbors.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

caelum: (turn11)
pretender: ghostking fire3/air5/water1/earth3/death4
order3/sloth3/cold3/growth3/misfortune2/magic3/dom6/watchtower
Research:55 (conj1/alteration3/const2/enchantment1)
gems: +13 total per turn(no clams yet)
gold:816 income:435 upkeep 122
provinces: 15 most of them searched by high seraphs.

notes: found magic pike on pretender, he got 2 afflictions(chestwound and weakened). Bad luck with magic sites, only 6 found, but one is the steel oven. Going to build 2nd castle there.
Only a couple of gems spent on wind guides, clamming just starts now. Going for air queens, which mr ghostking can cast.
I played vs easy ai ulm though, don´t know if normal would have made a big difference.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Pretender: Pangaea New Era, Medusa 9E4N, 3 order, 1 prod., 3 death, 3 misfortune, 3 magic, 80 point/40 admin castle

Research(86 points): Enchantment 2, Conj. 3, Thaum. 1
Gems: 44+6 nature, 2+1 water, 2+1 death
Income 481, upkeep 132
17 provinces

Though light on site searching, this setup could still work very well for a 2 person (or 1 person 1 AI game). While seeming somewhat weak later game, having a lot of provinces early means a great chance of finding indie mages (I found Amazons, Sages and Lizard Shamen). Also nature magic can branch off in a lot of directions with a bit of reseach.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Explosive C'tis (Turn 11) - don't try in MP with more than 1 opponent http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Pretender: Scorpion King 6F7E, 3 order, sloth 2, heat 1, misfortune 2, magic 3, fortified city.

Research: Ench 3 (total 138RP)
Gems: 5+1 air, 3 earth, 33+3 death, 37+5 nature
Gold: 2278, income 865, upkeep 143
20 provinces

Fast start is supposed to compensate for lack of certain magic paths. More fortresses, temples and lans should be coming soon, sauromancers busy in the field (fighting and searching) should soon settle and boost research.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

whoa that´s twice my income. Does c´tis start in the upper half, or is that income boost explained by miasma domain and the 5 extra provinces?

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Wow! Now I have some idea of how far I have to go. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/redface.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

Would anyone care to give a turn-by-turn summary? Even if I won't always want 15+ provinces by Turn 11, knowing how to accomplish that seems important.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Well I just researched alteration 2 and sent the gk out on turn 3. A force consisting of one high seraph/your starting commander and your starting troops + ~25 built blizzard warriors gets also sent out.(with some air gems for wind guide) that nets you 2 provinces per turn, so you come up with 15 at the start of turn 11.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Turn 1: I set my medusa to research (enchantment, to get to personal regeneration), and made my starting commander my prophet. Recruited a dryad commander and 3 dryad hoplites, and a satyr hoplite.

Turn 2: Put my new troops under the command of my prophet, and sent him toward a plains province whithout knights (most nations need to avoid knight provinces early). The battle orders set a single satyr hoplite in the front and a ways away from the seat of my troops (to attract arrow fire). The rest of the dryad and satyr hoplites were set to attack closest. The none-hoplite troops I started with were set to hold and attack closest, to avoid them being killed right away and forming a sort of reserve. The prophet was set to cast blessing fot two turns to get the most out of the dryad hoplites, then he would attack closest. Meanwhile, I recruited more dryad commanders and hopilites.

Turn 3: As long as the army I described befor avoids hard provinces (knights, barbarians, amazons, lizards), it con keep taking provinces for a long time without adding more troops. By now I have my pretender and 2 dryads reseaching, I set one of them to forgeing a thorn spear for my Medusa. And again I recruit more dryads and dryade hopilites.

Turn 4: The thorn spear is ready and personal regeneration is reseached, and the medusa is ready to start taking provinces. I give her the thorn spear and script her to sit in the back casting personal regeneration, cast panic a few times, then attack archers. This is only a good strat if you can find indies with archers or crossbowmen, but she can fly so it is very likely she can reach one, and again avoid knights. Meanwile a lot of dryad hopilits have piled up at the capital, so I set them under the command of a dryad commander, and they can start expanding as well (very simple orders, troops attack closest while commander blesses). Finally, I continue to recruit dryads of both kinds and switch research to conj. (lots of nature spells).

Turn 5: By now I have 3 forces taking provinces (Mendusa, starting army, dryad army), if none of them run into problems, they will have conquered 15 provinces by turn 11, plus whatever I had before turn 5. And every 3 turns or so you have another dryad army ready to go. At this point I will probably have found a province or two with indie mages (the best would be amazons, lizard shamen and sages), go ahead and send a dryad to build a lab there and start recruiting them for reseach and site seaching. This may mean not having enough gold for dryad production for a little while though.

Turn 6-9: Simply keep taking provinces and building armies and reseachers. After I get to conj. 3 or 4 I may want to switch to thoum., to start remote site seaching.

Turn 10: By turn ten, using this strat you should have a lot provinces and research, and a big pile of nature gems. You may want to recruit a Panii for casting call of the wild to disrupt your opponent, or you may want to save the gems for mother oak or lamia queens.

Anyway, I hope it's helpful http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Setup:
Standard Ulm
GK F2A4W2D4N2
Order 1, Prod 3, Drain 3
Dominion 6
Fortified City
0 points left

Results:
Research (30rp): Alt 2, Con 2 Ench 1
Gems: 17E +5
Treasury, total income 543, upkeep 134
8 provinces
New sites: Arena, Great Silver Mine, Library
New unit types: Onyx Amazons, Sages, Short/long/crossbows, Barbarians

Army:
68 good units, 8 mages, thug pretender, 2 strong thug commanders, assorted others.

Notes:
* I haven't started to actually recruit sages or Amazon mages yet, nor forge research or power boost items, so research and gem income will be improving a lot with time.
* I made some mistakes, especially losing my prophet and a strong army early on to the Onyx Amazons - I could have just sent the Ghost King, though that would be risking getting decayed.
* It was interesting that the GK pretender even with equipment and buffs, while able to wipe out most armies by himself, did get in trouble fighting 53 barbarians, even though his defense was at 25, prot 16, and only fatigue 28. I think maybe his Chill and/or fire shield were getting them berzerk, giving them a better chance to hit him, and/or the swarm bonuses and they got lucky. He still beat them, but only barely.
* Ghost Kings need to be careful to Move and not Sneak into target provinces...
* This nation is in a good position to get a lot better in the next 10 or so turns. Hasn't really gotten forging, searching, researching, etc yet, but it is in good shape to do so.
* The GK has not yet used any Death or Nature magic. However, they do allow Fever Fettish and undeads to hold them, and several other neat tricks.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Yep, I've started in the upper half. I didn't have miasma domain. I think that besides 5 extra provinces the difference mainly came because Caelum needs Cold-3 and at that rate of expansion most of your provinces were probably far off of that optimal value

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

My plan was very simple, just plain old rush. I've set Scorpion King (SK) to research enchantment, until I've learned what was in the next provinces. So on turn 2 I've sent him to conquer indies. He was taking one province per turn going by perimeter (and avoiding things like knights). On every turn I was hiring a sauromance and set him to research enchantment. When the ench-3 was about to be ready I've sent extra sauromancers with few guards forward, so that I could expand not from the capital. After that everybody went into the battle with raise dead, 2 Groups went right away, 3rd couple of turns later, after that freshly hired sauromancers were searching for sites. By turn 8 or so Jotunheim has attacked me (trying to take provinces with some remote spells). And along the way I was hiring all mercenaries in sight, it wasn't very successfyul though, 2 companies has perished achieving nothing and only one company has taken few provinces.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Thanks for the details! They really help. I think I have the basic idea of how to use a SC pretender in the early game.

Does anyone regularly use a pretender that isn't SC? If so, I would love to see how you spend your first 10 turns.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

I very rarely use a pretender without use in combat, but there are still more intersting things to do than a standard SC. For instance a Van F9W4 moloch makes awesome artillery (quickness + fire darts), while making your sacred troops and commanders fighting machines. Also a different tactic is to use a monolith with 9S4W3N; research teleport, body ethereal, astral shield, and breath of winter (note: add fire for fire shield when facing undead nations). While it has some obvious drawbacks, it can be very powerful when used correctly.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

Setup
Standard Pythium
3 Order 3 Prod 3 Cold 3 Mis
Dom 6
Fortified City
Crone 2f2a2w3e3s3d3n

Research
Conj 2 Alt 2 Const 2 Thuam 1 (51rp)
Gems 4A 2W 2E 5S 2D
Treasury 660 Income 633 Upkeep 116
8 province
Notes: Library
Expansion Accelerating

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

1. Pretender/Setup
C'tis Desert Tombs
Order-3 Sloth-3 Heat-3 Death-3 Fortune-1 Magic-3
Dominion: 8
Saurolich: 9D
Watch Tower

2. Results
Research (37 rp): Evoc-2 Ench-3 Thaum-2
Gems: 11+1 F, 18+4 D
Treasury 251, Total Income 329, Upkeep 100
5 provinces

3. Future
When I have enough poison slingers I will have two armies of slingers and undead. Get to enchantment 6 and reanimate archers.

4. Comments
I will be converting death gems to pearls to search for astral sites. I'll be using fire gems to search for fire sites. If I get a hero I'll search for nature sites.

Re: 10 Turn Challenge!
 

1. Pretender/Setup

Zen's Conceptual Balance, Recruitable Rebalance
Argaia
Marignon, default settings
Order 1 Prod 2 Growth 1 Magic 1
Dominion 6
Virtue: Air 4 Astral 6

2. Results

Research: 43rp, Conj 3, Evoc 2, Con 2

Gems: 4F, 1S, 1N
Magic sites: 1 at home + 4 abroad, 2 of them are Arenas
Treasury: 643, Total Inc. 526, Upkeep 126
10 provinces: 4 of those were lightly guarded swamps, 1 Jade amazon Province, two Lizard provinces
Forces: 7 Witch Hunters, 2 Grand Masters, 1 Friar, 2 Fire Drakes, 7 Pikeneers, 32 Crossbowmen, 45 Men-at-Arms, 1 Spy, 1 Virtue

3. Future

Abuse Amazons and Lizards. Research Enchament and Evocation, then Construction. Start to use Virtue in combat after I get Copper Plate.