Beams v Missiles
 

What is the general thought on beams vs missiles. It seems that missiles, before PDC are developed are the way to go. Once that occurs, you have to go to beams. Any comments?

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I like beams even early on the game, i do everything i can to get phased polaron beams, or duc & ofcourse i research pdc as soon as possible.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Yeah, once you have larger hulls, and the max level of PDC, missiles are kinda weak. Devnull mod has a lot of variety, just to keep it interesting.

I like to use at least one missile on my late game weapon platforms. You end up with lots on your larger planets, and that might saturate the PDC of a smallish fleet, and let some fighter craft get some lucky shots.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

yeah, on weapon platforms i generally use missile, but it's rare to see me using them on ships.... but i'm talking about stock game....

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

On a side note...

FOr some mod concepts I'm working on, I modded an upgraded Version of the du cannon into devnul. It's called the gauss cannon and does, at highest level, a damage of 80 at a range of seven. And that's before mounts come into play. It doesn't outrange beam cannons, but does pack a huge punch when teh range closes...

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I use Missile Cruisers with 4 Capitol Ship Missiles on each, organized in fleets, with a carefully modified "Max Weapons Range" strategy for glassing planets I won't be conquering. How can you beat 120pts damage per missile at a range of 16? You can't. Combine that with good shielding and some PDC for the flak coming off the planet and I'm out of range of your puny little beam weapons.

I get to Phased PB's as fast as I can for my attack ships. Once the rest reach Phased shielding, I'm well into my HED's.

I'm talking about stock game too.

Bring it, Meat.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gifTurin

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

One large weapons platform loaded with PDC. Or many small weapons platforms loaded with two large mounted weapons and two PDC each.

Brian

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I usually don't use missiles. There's no mounts for them and you don't get experience from destroying enemy ships with them. I try to get anti-proton beams as soon as possible.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

APB's kind of take a long time to research before they're as good as DUC's.

DUC's are cheap and inexpensive to research and at 50 damage at 1-5 range they're good for early and even middle game. I try and research heavily into another type of weapon, at least more damage and more range than DUCV before I start deploying them. APBI is useless.

Brian

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

yeah tell me...., i've researched APB's instead of DUC and my ships suffered the consequences.....

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Yeah, those ducks are dangerous.

Sorry, just the image of people throwing ducks at each other 'in earnest'. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Missiles suck period. The moment you get Point defense weapons missiles become utterly useless.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I'll say it too:

Missiles suck period.

You can't say it too often.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

About the only use I have for missles anymore is for early game scout frigates. People around here have developed a nasty habit of setting their colony ships to ram instead of waiting patiently for my DUC frigates to blow them away. I have a strict policy that any ship captain stupid enough to get himself killed by an unarmed ship gets his purple heart posthumously revoked. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

A missle frigate set to max range does a nice approximation of the missle dance in simultaneous games and about half the time in my experience will stay far enough away from the colony ship to not get rammed into oblivion. They also do nicely for glassing those border colonies before the other guy gets his mine fields up or his PDC WP's built.

Definetly an early game weapon only against a human player.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Interesting....

I usually put 10-25 satellites up with 2 capital missles a piece to help defend important frontier planets. Its generally the first defense system I get into place. It seems to do fairly well for small fleets (20 to 50 missiles). Warfleets of course are another story but I dont expect my planets to initially be able to handle a warfleet.

Again.. stock game.

Has anyone else tried this? Satellites seem to be useless for anything else but spying.

Rasorow

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

So play a mod like Adamant where missiles definitely do not suck. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/icons/icon14.gif

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I have, with mixed results. A lot of times I've found the enemy can get in and kill the planet before the sats can get to them. The missles might take them out anyway, if they don't have sufficent PDC, but trading a colony for a handful of ships usually is a bad trade.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Missiles are good early in the game. My first research project is usually DUC up to LvlV and use them (sparsely) on my early warships. As soon as my APBs surpass DUCks, (hahaha very funny Narf http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif ) I use them. I don't usually build much warships in the Early Times, but I usually start building them with APBs Lvl IV and later, in the End Times I use APBs as my main weapon. I rarely use HEDs, specially because WMGs have such a slow reload time. Missiles? Mostly in the Early Times, but also in the Middle Times. (Took these from Homeworld2 (Demo)) Missiles are useful for glassing planets early on and in the Middle Times, when forward colonies have no WeapPlats and I have no troops. I rarely capture planets btw http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif I usually just glass them and then recolonize them. Especially if I can't colonize them I just glass them.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Is this post still alive?

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

You might also check out this thread, Beams v Missles We ended up with two threads with the same name, and there are some possibly helpful comments in the other one.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I still think Missles are useful throughout the entire game. The reason is that A combined arms approach allwos you a chance to defeat the talisman or the crystal defence. And if you achieve industral superiority then missles become even more effective. If you saturate a defender with missles then after the point defense has fired the defending ships start using beam weapons to take out missles then your beam ships have a better chance to approach and fire. Combined arms missles drones fighters and plenty of Fleet ships can win against any specialty weapon. But the logistics and micromanaging nightmare is a factor.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I do not believe any beam weapons can target missiles other than PDC...

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Geo you linked to the same thread!! Are you trying to confuse me?!?

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

No I didn't. I linked to the other thread with the same name as this one. That's the point.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

We could always change the title of this thread to "Beams vs Missiles II" to clear things up...

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Oog, my brain. I asked the same question 20 days apart... I am getting seriously sleep deprived.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

i.e. I posted the same category question. I forgot that I had posted it already.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

If you are playing against the AI, you can use missiles for quite a long time because they don't research PD early in the game.

Human opponents always research PD early in the game so your few early research points are better spent on improving your direct fire weapons. And don't forget that you only get experience from direct fire weapons...

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I too like to play with combined arms tactics (like Gozra). So although beams are the weapons of choice for main combat, I also find the missiles can be a great help to.
I find it frustrating sometimes to send fighters after a well PDC protected ships only to have their numbers cut down quite a bit before they reach their target. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/mad.gif(Fighters are an integral part of my combat tactics.) So that's where some missile ships come in. They'll basically launch some missiles at a time to provide cover for fighters, so that my fighters that are equipped with rocket packs and beams can actually get at the target. Most times I get acceptable losses in my fighter squadrons, which shows that missiles shouldn't be dismissed too quickly. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

One thing not mentioned...

Beam and missile research is parallel with organic races. So, you do not lose any research when researching organic weapons if you want to convert to missiles later.

About the only reason why you'd research missiles, researching conventional missiles seems stupid because it sets you back hundreds of K of research points that are useless later on when they adapt and mount PDC.

And, you can do the nasty tactic if you're really rich of retrofitting all your ships in the middle of the battlefield to missile boats and annihilating your opponet if you notice they don't mount PDC to save space if you're organic (I have yet to pull this off though).

Brian

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Except that the missles are inferior weapons which are providing cover for your fighters which also inferior weapons. In the stock game against a moderatly skilled human player you are throwing good money after bad so to speak. Fighters and missles are both inferior to beam weaponed ships. Adequate PDC will illimnate the threat from both, and your fighters will be targetted by beam weapons in addition to the PDC.

Fighters and missles both have their place. Early in the game for sure, and in very specific situations they can be moderatly useful in the late game, but neither is good as a front line weapon. Combined force tactics simply don't work in late game stock SE4. Against an enemy in even roughly equal numbers, you will lose. In fact, using fighters and missles are a force multiplier for your enemy. Use them and you will find youself losing battles where you have the other guy outnumbered.

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

I haven't gotten that far in my game yet, so I may not be the 'late' as you describe it. I also play stock games more than I play against Human players(there's never enough time to do the fun stuff). (I sorta have an affinity for fighters, those one-man ships fighting to win and survive.) But I understand what you're saying, and I'll keep your comments in mind, if and when I do get time to play that far.
Maybe, making PDC a little less accurate could be put into SEV, which could make fighters important again for everyone! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Thanks for the input,
Aris http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

Quite a few mods address the problems with fighters and missiles in stock SE4 and make them actually be useful. You would be surprised what making PDC actually be a balanced device can do. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

In Capship PDC's can only take out missiles, so that's pretty balanced (combined with another weapon capable of taking out all but seekers) and I've also created two new missiles... one with 70kT damage resistance, and one with 100kT. Makes missiles useful later on - heavy weapons with extremely long ranges which need at the very least two PDC shots to be destroyed. And that for a 50kT weapon!

Re: Beams v Missiles
 

My solution, using Proportions, was shorter range for PDCs (3 combat grid, same than fighter's weapons), only PDC can fire on fighters (so the AI don't waste shots on fighters and actually destroy my fleets), and straight flight for missiles, so they can be shot upon by PDCs only once in their flight path.
It works pretty cool.
Maybe too well.
There is no way to conquer a Homeworld, which ussually has 1000 plus WP, without having a large number of frigates for the sole porpouse of provinding missile defense, and a humongous missile fleet to overwhelm the planet's PDCs.

In other words, the cost of war have skyrocketed.