Bards are insane!
 

Never really noticed this before, since I never got friendly with Man, but now I am experimenting with them and liking them, for lots of reasons.

But one thing sort of bugs me: the Bard. That he has nature skills, this is good, that he can instill uprisings with his songs of freedom, also good. That he can glean spy-level info from scouting, is odd in my eyes, but who cares, since you cannot decouple "can instill uprising" and "gets good scouting info" in dom2 (but maybe for dom3!?!?!). But who cares.
What bugs me is Stealth 30. Christ that's good. I did some tests and had bards in enemy capitals with PD of 35 and a 40-man army set to patrol, and the bards still werent found over 10 turns. And 1 bard in your capital is nasty, but 4 bards in your capital is your ruin.
Nothing can help except for Eyes of God, and not everyone can cast that (in the doubled sense: some people are astrally challenged, and only 1 person can have this global up per game).
It also seems a bit illogical to me that the bard has stealth 30. I mean, a spy can pass himself off as whatever, but the bard ... people will be like: Hey, that guy in the funny red hat and the lute, he looks a bit suspicious.
Certainly that would be the case in, say, Dead Ermor or Jotunheim or Caelum or Abysia or Ctis or [fill in the blank], when suddenly in the capital amongst all those lizards (or ghosts or whatever) some dude with a lute pops up and starts asking funny questions about magic sites and wouldn't the king like to hear a nice story?
I dont know, wouldn't a stealth 25 be ok?

Re: Bards are insane!
 

The bard can also cast his reinvigoration song .

But Man has not much than the bard . LoT is forced to chose rather weird scales with luck 1 + magic 1 forced and the tuathas are basically like vans .
In general i would say LoT is like a weaker vanheim .

Classic Man has expect the bard only capitol only mages and those mages are extremely fragile .

Mans troops are very good though but expect in small games Man has not a too good winning chance cause you can cripple your 2 or 3 neighbors with bards but you won't be able to harm the players farer away soon enough .
Then your research + hoarding abilities are among the worst and you are overwhelmed by someone like abysia or caelum or ctis .

The bards are good but Vanheim has much stronger stealthy armies , Ctis or Ermor could attack quite quickly with lots of banelords , Blood nations with a couple of Blood raiding squads etc. .

Imo man is one of the 5 weakest nations . The only thing that saves them from being classed as low as ulm is that they have a good chance to get AQs .

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Man is good in small maps, and bad in large maps (due to good mages capitol only, both themes).

About bards ... well it's fine IMO.
I hope in Dom3 to see reviewed "instill uprising" as covert ops (like poisoning wells, bribing mortal commander, changing road signs to make an army delayed, or such).

Re: Bards are insane!
 

There is nothing wrong with Man's research, base theme can out-research anything but Golden Era Arco. There hording is not great, but the great research means you can quickly get the clam hoarding going with a random water pick. Also, everyone is overlooking one of Man's greatest units, the Monk. I mean, for just ten more gold than a scout you get a stealth preacher and leader, that is sacred so you even save money over scouts in the long run.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

I think the Bards Stealth 30 is justified by the fact that he's basically just a funny little man who goes around singing songs and reciting poetry, so what harm could he do? ^^; That is, until he starts whispering into peasants ears about revolt and rebellion.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

By the way, how are you going to hoard clams without a water gem income?...

Re: Bards are insane!
 

I fail to comprehend how Boron has turned this thread into a discussion on hoarding -- Boron, stop! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

No, but seriously. Tuatha has research problems, that is true, they need sages. But once they find them....

I agree that the Monk is also an exceptional unit, I love monks. I always try to buy as many monks and bards as possible.

@Duncanish: Well, a funny little man with a lute just looks out of place in a town full of lizards, or giants, or undead -- in whose ears is he going to whisper? Stealth 30 is just tough!

@Boron: I have to post this because you cannot stop talking about hoarding. I was primarily interested in the Bard as a plausible 30-stealth-haver, not as to the effectivity of Man as a nation, which is completely beside the point. Nevertheless, I can't help but to be curious. Firstly, whom would you reckon as the 5 weakest nations besides Ulm and Man? Secondly, why a weak Van besides the forced scales for LoT? I can understand comparing Lot to Van, since its mages appear to be very similarly built at first glance. (Look at the Tuatha: he has the identical stats of the Vanadrott, except that he is 10 gold more; instead of a hoof attack, he has a magical Alicorn attack, and instead of the sailing ability, he recuperates, and instead of 1 blood, he has 2 nature. I'll leave it up to you to judge if one or the other may get a better deal.) LoT has serious research problems and needs to find sages asap, but once they do, they are just as scary. And as to troops: Man lacks in absolutely nothing but tramplers. In LoT, the D.Sidhe is a really decent 35 gold sacred unit, and only Flags are cheaper than Cu Sidhe for a bless unit, and Cu are far better than flags, they are also stealthy patrollers to boot. There are any number of tactics Man can use with their very variable army. AIr and Nature as paths happen to work very synergetically with the schools one would normally research as support spells for archers. And there are bards. Sure Van has Earth, cheap randoms, and Vans/Valks, which are all great, and I think Van is one of the strongest nations out there, but I just dont think that Man is a watered down Van.
As to their effectiveness: I really dont know Man well at all, but you could try to challenge PhilDuchon to a 1on1 and let him play Man. Good luck!

Re: Bards are insane!
 

My reasons for saying that were mainly the following ones :
Vanheim gets at least 120 extra points with cold 1-2 and misfortune 1-2 scale .
Furthermore they could also take turmoil + a watchtower with their rather resourcecheap troops .
Then Vanheim has the Allfather as a superb combat pretender .

And finally most important Vanheim has the Van , the best noncapitol only blessed unit .
Mans Daoine Sidhe are capitol only and otherwise weaker then a van also .

And Vanheim base has the very useful dwarfen smith . He can summon Mech men + forge dwarfen hammers + do some good combat spells . You could e.g. combine Mech Men with some Storm demons for a very powerful army .


About the 1on1 : I lose almost every 1on1 because i normally love to hoard and in 1on1 hoarding normally never pays off . So Phil would very likely beat me in a 1on1 .

But i doubt that he easily wins a "normal" game on a map like karan or cradle with 8-12 players involved chosing LoT .

As 5 weakest nations i would chose in no particular order :
- Marignon
- Man
- Tien chi
- Ulm
- Pangenea

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Turmoil? Weird.
Well look, I wont contest that Van is strong, and Vans are one of the best units in the game hands down. I wont repeat stuff here.

Odd, however: I have already beaten you with 2 of the nations you feel are the weakest, maybe we can try Man out next ;-)

Re: Bards are insane!
 

I think Boron meant Sloth.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

I have to admit, that in my mnd(at least)the theme for Mn has changed dramatically. In the first 3-4 game sI thought of them much like their description was. But after my wife (!)pummeled me(as marignon) as Man with a dominion + uprising blitz (taking advantage of my reluctants to attack early)this changed. The monk as cheap stealthy preacher, the bard as unrest generator... is a pretty powerfull comboin early-mid game.
However, it can be dismantled if you expect it... , but Man has just good enough troops to make that strategy NOT a necessity. IF Man gets an early sage or amazon province... they can hold up to most nation (... erm of course just about every nation can do that if they get a juicy province like that...).
Point being... I think the bard is a great unit. But not an unballanced one.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Yeah i meant sloth instead .

That you won with 2 weak nations is not strange because 1st most of those nations have in common that they are good rusher nations like your Marignon and 2nd you like to rush and the maps are too small so i can't start lategame tactics or hoarding http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/fear.gif .

And you are a very skilled 1on1 and earlygame player .
Nevertheless i enjoy our games http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
But they can't be compared to the "normal" 8-12 player game on a map with 150-250 provinces .

Re: Bards are insane!
 

I wonder if there would be much interest in a slugfest game, where quite a lot of players would play on a small map (say, perhaps ten provinces per player or so). Hmm...

Re: Bards are insane!
 

That's my favorite kind of game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Oooh I love those!!! I don't like to play large maps... the game ceases to be fun anymore after about 80 or so turns, depending on the research rate.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Sure, that's pretty common settings which tends to produce fun games. But if you want really aggressive game, 5-6 provinces per player make things interesting really quickly http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Bards are insane!
 

"Certainly that would be the case in, say, Dead Ermor or Jotunheim or Caelum or Abysia or Ctis or [fill in the blank], when suddenly in the capital amongst all those lizards (or ghosts or whatever) some dude with a lute pops up and starts asking funny questions about magic sites and wouldn't the king like to hear a nice story?"

Man's Bards aren't just bards - they're mages too, which could help explain their stealth 30 rating somehow.

PvK

Re: Bards are insane!
 

They've got friends in every town and village from here to the Sudan. They speak a dozen languages, know every local custom. They'll blend in, disappear, you'll never see them!

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Man/Lot Marignon Tien Chi Ulm/BF are my fav Nations. I am a noob, currently in my first three MP games and another 2v2 game, and was knocked out of my fourth first mp game by vanhiem, in thirty turns.

Man is amazing. Bard+Monk+Lord Warden+Warden +N9+GoH. Bards can cast song of relief just put him near the wardens the wardens have N9 and a huge boost in hp from GoH. Cause you have already spammed temples in your provinces. And already have had your other monks preaching in your enemies provinces and bards unresting their capitals. With all your bards/monks you can find weakly defended provinces and spam call of the wild. Once you capture the province pump up taxes if you dont think you can keep.Call of the winds makes great patrollers. They also make great mage killers. With a n9 pretender you can cast lots of good Conj Spells. And you can also easily spam Hauraspex/Wind searching thing in all your provinces.

Lot. Have you ever seen Cu Sidhe(the wolf ones right?) with a n9 blessing. Early on a squad of them slice right through level 9 Independents. Research will be a problem but hopefully you will find a sage site.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

I think the Last of Tuatha Daoine Sidhe are top-notch troops, especially with a blessing. They're really good fighters -- they're an excellent target for power-ups from friendly wizards -- and the ultra-stealth is a significant strategic benefit.

I'm not so keen on the Cu Sidhe, though. In theory their high move would allow for useful flanking, but in practice they seem to die too much (even with Nature-9 blessing). I kind of think that when playing Last of Tuatha I would save all my gold (and all my precious sacred troop building points) for Daoine Sidhe.

By the way, Legacyspy, is that message you just posted effectively an outline of your strategy in the 2v2 game that is about to start? }:-)

I played against arc once and he had a single bard causing unrest in one of my provinces, and I stubbornly insisted that a high enough provincial defense would eventually oust the bard. I ended up spending thousands of gold on provincial defense, spending time patrolling, I never did catch the damn bard, and I soon lost the game.

In fact, I'm not sure *what* the proper response to bard-unrest is. Lower taxes and just suffer the income loss? Launch an all out attack on Man's capitol?

Regards,

Zooko

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Question: Bards

Answer: Call of the Wild, Call of the Wind, Horde from Hell, Slingers, Harpies anything that has decent AP that you can get enmasse.

4 or 5 Call of the Wind's on your troubled province set to patrol do pretty well at discovering those high stealth units and either A.) Chasing them out by Retreating or B.) Killing them.

This type of tactic also works for Wardens/Vans/Valks Bane Venom Spies, etc, though for the actual troops you might want to put a SC/SummonSpammers on Patrol to deal with them when they are revealed.

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Thanks!

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Zooko, in our 2v2 game I am marignon

Re: Bards are insane!
 

Yes... and will be used in a current Faerun game I'm playing.