OT: Words fail me
 

http://www.livejournal.com/community...cks/72457.html

http://www.petitiononline.com/mod_pe...gi?ptb&101

I've checked, the game exists.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Talk about messed up! And to think, people thought GTA was bad.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

And written by a woman, no less. *shakes head and wonders off*

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

To be honest I think it has humour in it. Haha... I would be stunned if the game will ever sell.
But why wouldn't they make such a game, sooner or later the game will be made and if nobody buys it, it's no big deal.
Just look at it with a grain of humour and all will be alright.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Its JUST A VIDEO GAME When people start taking offense to things like Tunenomi (Catoon Networks long standing name for its afternoon cartoon shows) because they think its offensive, its time to tell the sensative liberals to "suck it up and deal with it."

Its just a video game get over it. Geeezzz

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Nice! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Congrats with your 10k posts!

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Unfortuantely, it's the logical progression of the popularity of games like GTA. As long as there is a market for tastelessness, people will try to fill it.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Some clarification: It is a collectable card game, made by white wolf.

I'm the one who's brilliant plan to be able to go to bed early is to not go to sleep untill tonight and I can keep track of that. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Its just a game suck it up and deal with it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

My god if they have a problem with it, don't buy it. What next, will they try and pass a law to protect us from our right to choose what kind of card / video / other game we want to buy?

"Oh I am sorry sir, but the liberal politically correct left and uber religious right have passed laws protecting you from this kind of game."

I am an adult, I do not need someone to tell me what I can and cannot buy for myself. I am able to make the choice my self and do not want interferance from some politically correct liberal law maker and their holly than thou moral ethical standards force fed to me through laws that are designed to protect me from my rights.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

AT, you're right, you have every right to buy (or not) a game like this if you wish to. However, the people behind the petition have every right to voice thier opinion and ask the game company to not produce this game. No one said anything about trying to outlaw tasteless games, as a supporter of free speech I would be against that.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

A valid point of view, but consider -- the game is a card trading game, so anyone could make it in their own home. It exists, and this petition won't change that. Maybe the protest raised just raises awareness, makes people think, and has a positive effect on people who might want to play it once just to see what it all means.

I'm thinking this is a similar situation to Ghettopoly -- first there's game creation, then publicity, outrage, then in sequence protests, petitions, the manufacturer stops making the game, and some fly-by-night outfit takes over. Then the game is forgotten, 'cause its a stupid premise anyway.

Opinion: If games don't hurt our mind and culture, then protests and outrage don't rob us of our freedom. It's all just stuff that happens during the day.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

I heard about this one game, it's disguting. In it, you play the part of some fascistic dictator who seeks to expand his (or her, the game is at least gender-equal) own territory by wantonly devouring natural resources, invading other nations and the use of spying, political intrigue and even genocide! In the light of immeasurable grief caused by real-life warmongering bastards throughout history, I think this game should be outlawed altogether!

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Indeed, they have a right to make it and you have a right to buy it. I don't want to interfere in that. I'm simply saying that for me, that game crosses over a line. The choice of wether they listen to that will ultimatly be up to their conciounce and/or market possibility, the same forces that are a part of any market descision where greed and/or morals exist. And, of course, you have the right to protest the petition, just as people have a right to make and sign that petition.

In other words, there is nothing there that doesn't already exist in a market economy, and I wouldn't support a law to ban it.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Would you say the same if it was a game whose object was to see how many 10 year old boys you could sodomize in order to win?

The point being that it's not just *your* opinion that matters, at a certain point one has to admit that society, *as a whole* is harmed by things like this. An analogy: I don't think the FCC should be in the business of busting Janet Jackson for her breatshowing, but what if they showed, instead, a preist buggering a boy, or some giant explicit anal sex orgy on prime time TV, or they had a gameshow where the object was "Who can rape as many goats in an hour wins a million bucks!" ("who wants to be a goat-raping millionaire?" by Fox of course)

The point is, again, no one cares what an individual thinks. We should, and many people do, care about the overall impact to our society - especially as it impacts those members of society least able to protect themselves. We owe it to the children, at the very least, to have some sort of standards.

Do you oppose movie ratings as well? Howabout explicit pornagrphy in high schools? Take your pick - the point is: where do you draw the line?

I personally tend to draw the line by saying that NO ONE has a right to tell ANYONE else what to do in the privacy of their own home as long as all parties are adult and willing participants. You want to get chopped up and eaten like that guy in Germany? Hey, as long as that's ok with you, go to it.

But don;t do it in public. And this game is somewhat public, no?

Remember Rome? I'm the *last* person to be conservative, but neither am I going to accept the uber-Libertarian viewpoint that the government has NO role in society and protecting its weakest members.

That to me is the real measure of the worth and quality of a society: how well does it treat it's least protected members? And that is the real issue here.

Alarik

Oh, and PS: stop blaming liberals for everything you don't like in the world: this is a right-wing nutjob issue - to use your own phrase, look at it with an open mind and you'll see that. When was the last time you heard liberals yell about Hollywood standards?

ta ta

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Hear! Hear!

Though we may debate where the line is... there is a line. There is some point where the thing becomes harmful to society through physical hurt to others, emotional hurt to others, etc. When you endanger/hurt someone else in the public then society has the obligation and the right to tell you that it is wrong and not permitted. (please note the word public.. in private is another matter open to debate though I would argue you never have a right to harm another regardless of consent.. but thats a very narrow opinion)

Rasorow

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

You do know you'll be drawn and quartered for trying to outlaw Space Empires V on these boards, no?

Fantasy vs Reality
 

Alarikf and Rasorow seem to be confusing fantasy and reality here. As Dogscoff illustrated in his roundabout way, even with a game as "violent" as Space Empires, where entire "star systems" are ravaged and literally billions of "intelligent beings" are "killed" or "enslaved", NO ONE is actually harmed (aside from voluntary sleep deprivation, perhaps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif ). When the "emperor" gets up from his/her computer, yawns, and crawls into bed, lo and behold: the universe remains as it was. Birds still sing, the planets remain in their orbits, and billions of "dead" people go about their daily business, oblivious. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/cool.gif

Now from what I've read of this "Pimp" game, it's pretty much the same. The "pimp" makes "money" by playing certain cards to "abuse", "exploit", and "addict" certain game objects called "women". When the game is over, however, the player (or "pimp") has no more of the real-world commodity we call "money" than he (or she) started with (and probably less, having paid some to the game's manufacturer), he doesn't drive a real-world "pimpmobile" (unless he already had one), and he hasn't done the slightest microscopic iota of harm to any real-world creatures we call "women". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now let's examine the game "outrage". In this game real people see a real fantasy product (game, movie, novel, rap album, whatever) that "exploits" some real-world "problem", and decide that it "offends" them. They decide to try and stop this product's production and/or distribution. They join like-minded players, express their "outrage" to news media, politicians, and fellow citizens, and organize petitions and so on, in their attempt to "stop" the product.

Sometimes the players succeed in their "quest", sometimes they fail, but players usually "win" the "outrage" game anyway in the sense that they feel they've "done something" about the real-world problem in question. They haven't of course, http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif because the "outrage" game is as much a fantasy as "space Empires" and "Pimp". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Hey Hunpecked, you might be onto something there. You should work up a protoype for your new game there and suggest it to Shrapnel, they might want to sell it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Wrong.

There is a *very* real difference in the two cases you describe. There are no space faring races in our lives. There are no billions of inteeligent beings being enslaved by alien empires. These are not, at all, analogous to events or people or places in our own reality.

Now, if you had a game that was "How many Hutus can you kill?" or "How many Serbs can you Rape?" then, yea, we're talking similar things.

This is analogous to the game "how many women can you rape" "How many women can you pimp out"

When I play SE4, I play with certain game objects called "planets" and "starships" and "planetary populations"

When I play this pimp game, I play with certain game objects called "women".
(That last noun clause is quoted from your post, BTW)

This is the fundamental, crucial difference. And it is especially so becuase pre-teens play this game.

I'll stop there but say lastly that for what it's worth, I am not entirely convinced that this game in question is problematic - ALL I am talking about is the existence, or non-existence, of some "line" that is theoretically crossable or not. Is there such a line? That's all I'm asking.

Is there such a line? If so, where? If not, is this a good thing?

Alarik


Actually, one last question: why don't we hear from the majority of the earth's population and see what they think about it. Any women reading this? Hunpecked, you married or have a GF? Ask them what they think. I can't speak for them. Maybe I am too uptight.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Blinks

Reads the Posted Links

Oh, It's White Wolf....Can't say I'm suprised

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Let me quote that last one again. You claim that "he hasn't done the slightest microscopic iota of harm to any real-world creatures we call "women". "

If we are engendering, even in the slightest, a generation of boys who treat women like "objects" then don't you think that we are doing at least some damage to "the objects we call women"?

I mean, shoot man, women are already treated like objects whose only real worth is physical in almost every magazine ad, movie, and other form of media. Now we sound like we're actually going to take that one step further and tell young boys that women are of even *more* value if they are your prostitutes?

Don't think that's the world we live in? Don't think the media is like that? Try this thought experiment: go see a movie. Take an action movie. Look at the genders involved and how they react and, more importanly, how YOU react to them.

Now, take that EXACT same movie and replay it, in your head, but with the genders reversed. And see how you react to that. Odds are, if you're honest with yourself, you'll react very differently to each of these movies. Why? Think about it. And think about how it affects the opposite gender, growing up with the roles as they are.

I repeat: I am *not* sure if the game in question is problematic. But I am pretty sure that there must exist *some* line of common decency, which, if we cross it as a society, there is some measure of injury. To say otherwise is to imply in part that we as humans develop completely free from any social norms or pressures that might mould who we are later in life. But, that is patently ridiculous. if I had grown up in different circumstances, then surely I'd be a very different person than I am? I can tell you for sure that if I hadn't gotten the boxed D&D game when I was fifteen, I'd be very different than I am today.

Who's to say what I would be like if, instead of D&D I got this "Pimp out women" game when I was fifteen?

No one can ever say (except perhaps the big guy upstairs). But I am not willing to say that such influences make NO difference to a person's attitudes in life and towards women.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

alarikf I think the law about child molestation would apply to your example. So long as it is not illegal, I can see no reason for "banning" a game that you are free to choose not to buy.

Now if it was being force fed to me like spam email or pop up adds, then yes, I would be for passing laws to prevent it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I agree with the rating system for games. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Its a very useful tool for parents. And I agree that any parent that would buy such a poorly tasteful game should be beaten if they bought it for their kids to play.

I agree that some things are harmful to society as a whole, but when ever we as individuals have the ability to decide for ourselves, government should not step in. Like I said, if this crap was being forced upon me, via tv, radio, bill boards, phone calls, or emails, then yes, I say put a stop to it. There are some lines that should not be crossed.

But when we start passing laws that do away with our freedom of choice, we give up that which makes us free. I would never buy a game like this, but my neighbor might. I would never presume to tell him that he is wrong for buying it, because it is his right to choose what he buys. I would choose not to associate with a sick SOB like him in that situation, but I would never support a law that limits his freedom to buy such trash.

I guess living in America, and not under an imperial state, has somewhat spoiled me. I do apologize if my desire to keep my right to choose offends any one who feels that I as an adult should not have such rights.

And personally, I would have thrown the book at Janet Jackson for what she did. A ward drobe accident my arse.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

But, my entire point is that it's not YOU who I would be concerned about - it would be the kids who get the game, what types of people they grow up to be because of it, and how that affects all of us since we are part of a society.


I don't get your point about child molestation. Child molestation, by definition, is not the act of two consenting adults. (mayeb I forgot to say "adult" - my bad if so). Can you elaborate on what you mean?

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

See, we agree in part. I think, fully, that two consenting adults, in their own privacy, hey, let them chop each other up and make stew out of themselves. I don't care.

But I am not talking about that, at all.

When you say "I do apologize if my desire to keep my right to choose offends" you're using loaded language. No one is talking about taking away your right to choose anything in your own life. You can totally stay home and play your own version of "pimp out chicks" - whose stopping you? So long as you and your GF both consent, you can do anything you want (as far as I am concerned, not sure about the limits of the law, but this is my opninion here).

It's the effect on *society* I'm talking about.

But, hey, how do you square your statement that :
with your beleif that this card game is just fine? I mean, you're really going to tell me that the former is worse?

Oh, but here's a cogent and funny article you should read about it:

"U.S. Children Still Traumatized One Year After Seeing Partially Exposed Breast On TV"
http://www.theonion.com/news/index.php?issue=4104

I mean, woo hoo, an exposed breast! Call out the cops! Can't have that! (but, hey, headless bodies, blood and guts, that's fine...)

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

If my comments in this thread seem vague, flippant and self contradictory, it's because I'm not sure where I stand.Nevertheless I'm going to rant on authoritatively.

I believe that ppl should be able to make films, books, games, whatever, about anything they like, as long as access to negatively-influential material is restricted to adults. That there is a significant market for sick stuff like this pimp-game reflects a greater problem in society, but that shouldn't be allowed to interfere with freedom of speech. I guess I'm saying that I see this pimp-game as more of a symptom of the mysoginist attitudes prevalent in society, not a cause.

I'm reminded of some utter cretin of a woman I saw on TV a few years back. She was complaining about South Park, saying it was disgusting that stuff like that should be marketted at children. What she totally failed to grasp was that South Park was NOT aimed at children- however she had clearly ignored all the "18" stickers and bought her kids the video without a clue as to its contents, and THEN complained about the content.

This game will suffer from similar problems- in the hands of well-adjusted adults, it probably isn't harmful, and the game's age rating will reflect that. THe problem is that moronic parents who can't be bothered to consider how they are raising their children will go out and buy this game for their eight-year olds. Well, maaybe not in the case of a board game, but certainly in the case of a computer game like GTA. I guess many parents still look at computer games and think that they can't be any more sophisticated or influential than space invaders.

Spare the children, eat the parents. That's what I say.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Alarikf writes:

>> These are not, at all, analogous to events or people or places in our own reality.

[shrug] OK. Forget "Space Empires". How about "Grand Theft Auto"? Are any real-world vehicles stolen? Any real-world police killed? Any real car wrecks, blood, or money?

>> "How many Hutus can you kill?"

I haven't played the game, but I'll bet it doesn't let me kill any real-life people whatsoever. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

>> When I play this pimp game, I play with certain game objects called "women".

Yes, and these "women" are EXACTLY as real (or unreal) as the "Planets" in SEIV.

>> This is the fundamental, crucial difference.

Um, there is no difference. Both are unreal game objects with familiar names. It's kind of like naming a chess piece a "king", even though it has no resemblance to one.

>> And it is especially so becuase pre-teens play this game.

I assume pre-teens could get their hands on this game, just as they can "Tom Clancy's Splinter Cell" and "Combat Mission" and "Grand Theft Auto". So?

>> Hunpecked, you married or have a GF? Ask them what they think.

If I ever listened to my SO, I wouldn't be a game player now, would I? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Seriously, if she showed any interest at all she'd roll her eyes and say if I buy the game then she can buy [insert trinket here] for herself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif She has no sympathy for women as "victims".

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Yeah, I agree fully.

Censorship or governmental attempts to control social values or mores are a terrible thing and, in my opinion, should be avoided at all costs. South Park the mOvie was all about that - and was, incidentally, one of the best movies I've ever seen.

All I was trying to get at was

1) The debate over where, if anywhere we draw that line of deceny, and
2) The fact that it's ridiculous to say that such things have no effect on society at large, and
3) the concept that, no matter how much a lkot of people would like, we all do live in a society not just a bunch of individuals in the same geographic location. And that has implications for our individual actions.

Alarik


3)

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Ok, drop the games analogy and think about hard core porn? Good for society? Bad for society?

I would never advocate censorship...but in the case of child pornography, well, I think maybe I would.

All I am saying is that it is patently naive to think that a proliferation of games that degrade or humiliate a segment of the population has NO effect on that population.

I mean, come on, do you REALLY beleive that it doesn't matter AT ALL that the vast majority of surfing is porn? Or that GTA is the highest selling game (IIRC)? Does it REALLY matter ZERO?

If that is the case, then does it still matter zero if we constantly show hard core porn or rape on public TV? Or cable, if you think that's more appropriate?

Like I said, I would march for all of these rights for everybody. I am an extreme foe of censorship. But I also an extreme foe of knee jerk naivete in the name of some political beleif. Sure, this is all about the first amendment - but that's NOT what I've been talking about.

Ah, nevermind. I guess I'm not making myself clear - and I'm tired of trying.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Does it have anything to do with generic vs specific?

Eg:
Nuking the Purple Team's base to glass ...vs... Nuking the Pentagon to glass.
Mowing down generic pedestrians ...vs... Mowing down stereotypical Canadians.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

The thing that drove me to protest was not that it was a game about pimps - it was that it was a game about pimps that attempted to turn prostitution into a joke.

Space Empires doesn't turn the murder of planetary populations into a joke. If it did, I wouldn't play it. It's true it can be played that way, but that's a matter of personal use.

And quite frankly, I consider military strategy and political options benificial things to learn (So long as you don't actually start acting like a dictator)

The petition isn't trying to make the game illegal; it's simply expressing societical displeasure at something everybody who signs it finds disgusting.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Alarikf writes:

>> If we are engendering, even in the slightest, a generation of boys who treat women like "objects" then don't you think that we are doing at least some damage to "the objects we call women"?

Note that what I wrote before is still unquestionably true: in the game itself no actual women come to any actual harm. Alarikf's concern is that some hypothetical "boys" playing the game may suffer a hypothetical attitude adjustment that may someday hypothetically result in some hypothetical harm to some hypothetical women. Hypothetically speaking. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Now I'm not up on the latest research, but my guess is that if there was a proven link between childhood fantasy and adult criminal behavior, games like "Grand Theft Auto" would have been legislated off the shelves long ago. No? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

>> I mean, shoot man, women are already treated like objects...

Yadda yadda yadda. The question is whether it can be demonstrated (i.e. proven) that this "Pimp" game will cause significant additional criminal behavior. If so, ban it. If not, let it die its inevitable commercial death in the marketplace.

>> Who's to say what I would be like if, instead of D&D I got this "Pimp out women" game when I was fifteen?

My guess is that Alarikf might have played it a couple times, had some laughs, put it away, and gotten "D&D" at his next opportunity. I doubt that "Pimp" has the immersion value of "D&D". http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

>> But I am not willing to say that such influences make NO difference to a person's attitudes in life and towards women.

In other words, the "Pimp" game (and by implication all similarly "frivolous" products) should be presumed "guilty" until proven "innocent"? If we use that standard, then SEIV should also be banned, because it simply can't be proven that NOBODY is harmed in the slightest by the game (as I suspect numerous SOs can testify). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

There's this game I play. In it I run around with an MP-5 shooting people to death. There's another game I play, and in it I run around stealing cars and killing people willy-nilly.

There's also this game I don't play, but many others do. In it they duke it out mano a mano with fists and various melee weapons. There's a game similar to it, but not requiring so much memorization, that I do play. In it I beat up on thugs, men, women, dogs, laughing fat guys, and people with a real samurai fetish, and people with really bad hair and a superiority complex.

I, and millions of others, do not then go out and do these things in real life. I, and millions of others, choose to play or not play these games. Personally, I would choose not to play this "Pimp" card game. Not because of the subject matter, but because I'm not big on card games. Bottom line, the game is being released in a free country. Don't like it? Don't buy it. Call me nasty names for trying it, and call yourself worse names.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Posted by Alarikf:

On that I can't agree; at best there is an average. Having found myself part of the outcast, disenfranchised minority more often than not, I strongly resist any such line.

Like Atrocities, I am a strong believer in freedom. Anything that erodes our freedom is bad! If this degree of freedom should be our downfall, then perhaps our species is not the hot sh** we think it is. Personally I think we are that hot, if not impeded by too many rules and laws. Let freedom be the judge.

(Jeez, I sound like a preacher! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif )

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

narf poit chez BOOM writes:

>> it was a game about pimps that attempted to turn prostitution into a joke.

Hmmm. I thought narf "got it". As far as I can tell, there are no real pimps in the card game. There seems to be a game role called a "pimp", but AFAIK there is no real prostitution in the game (if there were, then the player would risk arrest...a REAL arrest). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

>> Space Empires doesn't turn the murder of planetary populations into a joke

Of course not. There is no murder in the game. There is a game process for planetary "bombardment" that is analogous to the "capture" of a playing piece in the game chess. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

>> The petition isn't trying to make the game illegal;

I have no problem with the petition. I suspect, however, that it may not have the intended effect on the game. White Wolf may be counting on such publicity to increase sales. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Heh I know people "sorry to say but mainly African American" who refer to their own dang girlfriends as and I quote "Ma' *****" with their girlfriends present and in earshot, but their girlfriends seem to not give a damn, in all honesty it pisses me off when people casually refer to women in such a manner and I'm sorry to say but I've given more then one bloody nose to someone who said something disgusting about this girl or that, for example I knew a 13 year old girl back when I was 15 and I can honestly say this is the first girl I ever felt any serious feelings for and when this little puke said.

"Man I'd like to bend her over and (edited, you can figure out the rest easily." I jabbed him square in the jaw lifted him about eight inches off the ground by his coat and told him that if he ever said that about her again I'd break his jaw.

Well now a days comments like that or referring to every girl as "poo tang," "tail" or other various crudities still makes me really mad, though fortunately I've matured enough not to go making people bleed over such stupid statements but I still often say something about it if the person they are insulting is someone I know..

Anyway my point is I would never approve that game PIMP because it's sick and disgusting, but I also would not ask that it be made illegal because it's none of my buisness they game you decide to play, I Mean to be honest if your out there playng one of those computer generated kiddie porn computer games I've heard about it's none of my buisness because it's not against the law, that doesn't mean I would AT ALL condone it.

We live in a country of limited freedoms where a whiney minority of jackasses who feel they should control what everyone else does can ruin it for the vast majority, because they petition and they nag the government until they get their way, and it's just not right, and those people need to be told to shut the hell up and let other people watch the legal stuff and by the legal stuff they want, especially these danged WHINEY PARENTS commitee's that got some of my favorite shows pulled because "Oh my little johnny might be traumatized" instead of just turning of their own bloody TV!


Well that's my 2c, peace and love to ya'll http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

If nobody tries to stop it, it won't be stopped.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

alarikf writes:

>> Ok, drop the games analogy and think about hard core porn?

OK, I'll bite. Here are a couple points off the top of my head:

Good for society

(1) Satisfies a large market demand
(2) Most porn workers earn more than they would in other jobs and so pay more taxes

Bad for society

(3) Some porn workers get in over their heads (look up "Colleen Applegate" on Google)

I'm not sure what the point of this exercise is. Name any industry and you can probably come up with both pros and cons.

>> Does it REALLY matter ZERO?

Um, again I'm missing the point. I can't think of any industry that has ZERO effect on us.

>> I would never advocate censorship...but

Self-contradicting. Either "never" has to go, or "but" has to. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/confused.gif

>> Ah, nevermind. I guess I'm not making myself clear - and I'm tired of trying.

Probably just as well. This business about ZERO effect on society is no basis for real-world policies. It makes as much sense as a "zero tolerance" drug policy that bans Tylenol in schools. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

narf poit chez BOOM writes:

>> If nobody tries to stop it, it won't be stopped.

Well, I suspect just the opposite, but then I also predicted "Survivor" would be a commercial flop. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

I was responding to the comment about the 10 year old being sodemized. That would be child molestation and quite illegal.

When you give up a right or a freedom, in this case just the choice to choose whether or not to buy a game, you give up a lot more than you bargin for. If the law makers can take an inch, they will take a mile. Never give up your rights, no matter how well the law makers package the deal. They will lie to you, bold facely at times, to get you to agree with their POV and allow them to pass their freedom stealing laws.

Because people were willing to compermise and give up freedoms, we now must deal with laws that a few years ago were laughed at when proposed. In a few more years the things that we say will never become laws because they are laughable, will be law. So the line must be drawn, drawn here and now, this far, no further. We have already given up far more than we should in the name of Politically correctness and I am not alone when I say to hell with giving the liberal left, or uber religious right any more power than they already have.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

LOL you hate the left, hate the right and don't quite fit in the middle http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

For your info btw AT I am a Christian and a very "faithful" person though sometimes the organized religion part is a bit much, well anyway my point is not all of us are the uber right you know http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I agree that if a whiny minority is always allowed to have their way we'll all be screwed in a few years.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

AT: Your point about something being laughed at first and accepted later is exactly my point. I very much fear and expect that that is what will happen, not with this game, but with this type of game.

Also, on the point of laws that diminish our freedom, I say never when it comes to our rights. However, privileges, like being able to drive a car are another thing. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Anyway, of that tangent...

I'm happy with this thread. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif We've had a generally calm, rational discussion. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (Even me, and I wasn't particularly calm when I posted it.)

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

I would really embrace a few restrictions on the media though. Not on the 1st amendment, but on the media itself. I would be for limiting what they could say without having facts, I would before making them accountable when they make mistakes or broadcast / publish, wrongful information that harms people, and require them to prove the truth in what they say. Words do hurt people, and they do harm the society as a whole when they are spoken in deliberately to mislead. I would be for protecting peoples right to privacy and putting an end to the stocker photographers that plague the popular Hollywood crowd. I would make it a law that if the story is BS, that it must contain a disclaimer saying that the story is a fraud as to protect the person to whom the story was written about.

Enough with the media being used as a propaganda machine. Make it a law that if the media is reporting news, it must be neutral and un-bias, and I mean truly unbiased, no more Liberal CBS B.S. or fair and balanced lies from FOX. Make the news truly about just being the news, and if they wish to defer, make it a requirement that they state the purpose of the deferment. IE that they are stating an opinion not based on fact, or they are drawing a conclusion based on such and such facts. If these rules would have been in place than Dan Rather would not have been humiliated by the fake documents last year, and OJ would have been convicted.

Additionally, the news media SHOULD never be allowed into a courtroom. They should be BARED from reporting about a criminal case while it is under investigation or facing court proceedings. I am of firm belief that a lot of people have been cheated out of justice because they were convicted or cleared in the court of public opinion long before they ever stepped foot into a court room. The media has NOT RIGHT to ruin a person’s life just to make copy. Look at what they did to that Richard Jewels guy a few years back. They all but convicted that poor bastard for the Olympic park bombings and it turned out he was completely innocent.

That is only one example of how the media has used its unbridled power of opinion, and not fact, to destroy someone’s life.

We need checks and balances in the system to prevent fraudulent and deliberate misuse of the 1st amendment without limiting or restricting the amendment itself.

Remember when the 1st amendment was written our founding fathers couldn't even begin to conceive Television or radio.

News Papers are held to a higher standard than the news media like CBS or Fox. So why not establish laws that protect 1. a person’s privacy, 2. their right to due process, and 3. their dignity.

How many people have been wrongfully convicted because of the feeding frenzy wrought by the media? Hell the media even tries to influence elections by telling people that X party has won 30 minutes after the polls open so Y party should just stay home. They tell us what we should believe, they tell us what is right and wrong even though we know that what they are telling us is a load of crap. They force feed ridicules over hyped news stories to use on a daily basis without ever really giving us any news. They are now, more often than not, heavily slanted with a political agenda that is as complex to figure out, as it is easy to see.

I mean we all knew that Dan Rather and Ted Turner hate the Republicans, and love the Democrats, and vice versa for Denis Miller and Bill O'Riely.

Don't get me wrong, I like entertainment, I just don't like entrainment posing as news. Especially when it destroys a person or their right to due process.

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

As for Bill O'Reilly, you need only listen to the emails he reads at the end of his show to see that he is even-handed in his criticism. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

Oh Like Bill, and I would rather watch Fox than CNN any day of the week. I just wanted to be fair and balanced in my post as not to offend or give the impression that I was baised against CBS and their uber uber liberal left wing views. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif (Caugh)

Re: OT: Words fail me
 

hmmmmm

I have to say that I disagree with many opinions here. There is a line where something (anything game or otherwise) harms society by inducing harmful behavior. Where that line is? I dont know but I believe it exists. You have the right to do anything you wish until you cause harm to another, another group, or society at whole. That harm can be physical, spiritual, mental, or emotional.

Having obtained my undergrad in Psych and been a subject (as all undergrads in Psych are) in behavior modification studies at various points it was a real-eye openner just how much your behavior and thoughts are influenced by what is around you and presented to you. You can be influenced by books, games, movies, etc.

I do have a problem with games that are overly violent. There have been people (not always kids) that have modeled the behavior.

There is a level of danger to society. Where does it cross the line? Don't know but I assert there is a line.

The difference between SEIV, Stars!, other grand Strategic games and games that graphically have you stealling cars, killing police, driving over people for points, cutting people open, is that strategic games deal with abstraction. There is little or no emotional desensitization going on due to the abstract nature. The goals/means of those games are beyond what a person can achieve. When is the last time you took your Ravager class Dreadnaught to the nearest star system for a quick spin? When is the last time you took your car for a quick spin around the block? How many people were out walking? Worth how many points?

Do you see my point?

One Truism to remember -> Garabage in = Garabage out

What we do/experience/witness affects us and changes us, we are little bits of experiences - we can choose how much they will affect us to a degree but we can never choose for them to not affect us.

BTW I also support freedom of speech... but it already has limits - ever hear of slander? Libel? You are not permitted to have your rights restrict the rights of another.

So in closing I will respectfully disagree with many of you.

Rasorow

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Anyways....you all need to go join the Zeta 2 game... (and get back to something more based in reality)

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Tee hee...this is a funny comic (attached), and somehwat (hilariously) relevant. After this, really, I am done posting. Honest.

Thanks,

Alarik

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

There's been a lot of posts here that refer to 'the line' that either needs to be drawn, or should not be crossed, but I'm going to let you all in on a little secret: There is no line! It's more of a box. Outside of this box there are a few things that are unreservedly bad (ie: will never, ever be good no matter what the circumstances), and there are a few things that are unreservedly good. Everything else, morality, religion, politics, theft, violence and murder, go in the box as they cannot be categorized as completely good or completely bad. Sometimes they're one, sometime's they're the other. If you want to speak in general terms, without talking about specific cases, you can only really say something is "mostly good" or "mostly bad."
ie: Charity is "Mostly Good", while murder is "Mostly Bad."

And will people please, PLEASE, PLEASE stop this endless moaning about "the children!" We do NOT need the government to protect our children from adult material. That's what parents are for. I can remember getting caught with a Playboy when I was 13. My parents sat me down and explained to me the whole concept of objectification (in general and of women in specific). Now, granted, if Playboy was illegal, my parents would never have had to have that chat, but therin lies the problem: It would never have been explained to me and a very important lesson on the road to becoming a responsible adult would have been missed.

If anything, the government should put less time and money into protecting our poor children from sex, violence & objectionable material and more into eliminating the concept of 'dual-income families'. I don't mean this in a sexist way, I don't care who is bringing in the money, but I firmly believe that at least one parent should be able to devote a majority of their time to ensuring their child becomes a mature member of society.

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Re: AgentZero's last paragraph - Who really thinks daycare (1 to 3 people for 5 to 25 kids) can raise children as well as even a single parent? (1 parent, generally no more than 3-4 kids)

Re: Fantasy vs Reality
 

Exclusively, no. But if a kid can spend a few hours a day interacting with other kids in a safe and educational environment, while the parent or parents go out to earn a living and/or get a break from the stresses of parenthood, then that can be a very good thing for everyone involved.