hello and help
 

hey there people,
this is my first time on the boards, so i don't know if this question's been discussed already or not, but I was wondering if there was anyone out there who had played space empires iv and galactic civilizations...i'm on a rather limited budget, and i don't really have time to get into two big 4x games at once, so i was looking for some suggestions as to which game is a better buy...mostly i'm looking for gameplay depth

Re: hello and help
 

Gameplay depth? SE4. I've played GalCiv b4... didn't like it. SEIV gives you the ability to manage massive empires, diplomatic relations are deeper, tech is more comprehensible, etc. Plus you can download dozens of different mods for SEIV or make your own, even if you've never ever used a PC before... all the important files are .txt and .bmp files. You just need Notepad (and perhaps Wordpad or MetaPad for the bigger files) and Paint to mod the game to your tastes.

Re: hello and help
 

btw check out this while you're at it:

http://www.shrapnelcommunity.com/thr...c=1#Post331698

Re: hello and help
 

Well personally I would go for Space Empires IV Gold instead of Galactic Civilizations. SE4 has this great community and alot of mods so its a game that your going to be able to play for along time after you buy it.

Also welcome to the forums http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: hello and help
 

I played both. I really wanted to like GalCiv 2. Ive been following it since GalCiv 1 a long LONG time ago on OS/2. Its primary fame is supposed to be its AI which is what Im most interested in. It probably is great in AI but unfortunately the rest of the game was so flat that I got bored and dumped it. Maybe GalCiv 3 will have Brad improving the REST of the game. Just my humble opinion.

Re: hello and help
 

Space Empires without a doubt

Reason why GalCiv community is larger, due to that GalCiv is more widely avaliable (being that SE is brought only over the net)
Also, you tend to find that the community around here is closer and friendly than communities for other games

Re: hello and help
 

this is hardly the place for unbiased opinons! However, even ardent GalCiv partisans will concede that Space Empires has far deeper gameplay. I suppose it really depends on how much time you want to invest in the game whether GalCiv or Space Empires is better. SE really is rather complicated...

The demo shows off the gameplay decently well, though.

Damn, now I'm remembering just how very, very long i spent playing the SE II demo before i realized there was a full version.

Re: hello and help
 

Welcome to the forum!

editted cause i kant spell.

Re: hello and help
 

My suggestion:

Buy SEIV and have fun. Spend time on the forums. Get to know the peeps here. Download a coupla mods. Make a couple yourself and post them. Have something YOU made run on computers ANYWHERE IN THE WORLD.

Then you'll forget everything about GalCiv.

Re: hello and help
 

Technically, you can make mods for GalCiv too... SE4 modding is more powerful and far easier though.

GalCiv does have better AI than SE4, but the rest of the game is poorly developed.

GalCiv combat is atrocious. Attack score, defense score, hit points, no designing, no fleets, nothing. Ships fight each other one on one. Compare this to SE4 combat where fleets actually fight each other, you can design your ships, ships have deep designs, etc.

GalCiv systems suck. A handful of planets all in one square. Compare this to SE4 systems where you can have dozens of objects floating around, ranging from planets to multiple stars to asteroids to storms.

GalCiv diplomacy is a bit better designed than SE4, and its AI actually uses it decently. GalCiv is only single player though, so who cares? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Playing against the AI gets boring after a few games. Human opponents are far more satisfying.

GalCiv technology is just weird. Most techs give a 1% bonus to resource production, or combat bonus, or something like that. Compare this to SE4 techs where you actually get brand new components to use. Research armor and shields to improve the defense of your ships, how you choose to improve it. No magic universal upgrades, you get to choose how much armor and shielding is on your ships. Same with weapons and other components.

GalCiv colonies are poorly implemented. You can build every facility on every planet. SE4 actually has limits to the space on a planet based on size.

GalCiv ground combat is even worse than SE4. You just load civilians on transports and they are magically troops. In SE4, at least you have to design and build your troops.

GalCiv race customization is a joke. You can only play as humans, which is needless to say boring. You can only make a few minor tweaks. In SE4, you can play as any race (even add your own), and you can completely customize its strengths and weaknesses.

GalCiv does have a basic government system, which is interesting. However, like the rest of the game, it is rather lackluster and lacking in any sort of depth.

GalCiv has too many mechanics hidden away from the user. SE4 is better suited for strategizing.

Ok that's probably enough for now... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: hello and help
 

I would suggest that you download the demos for both games. Even if you are unfortunate enough to have dial-up internet (like me) and it will take many hours, it is well worth it to check them out, plus look at the opinions of the people here. I'd also advise you to make a thread over at galciv.com and get their opinions. Then again, they may not even know what SEIV is, so maybe they won't be able to compare http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif .

Personally, I would suggest you go with SEIV. I have literally played well over 1000 hours, probably a lot more playing SEIV, and I've probably put only about 50 into GalCiv. It's a good game, for the first couple of games. Then it becomes boring to be honest.

If you want a good summary of the respective strengths and weaknesses, Fyron's post below has a very good summary.

Re: hello and help
 

I also recommend downloading the demos for both and trying them out for yourself. This is probably the best way to see which one you will have a taste for. My Opinion only, SEIV is the best space game out there. You can do more, play more, play against humans by PBW, more decent and tough mods to wet your appitite for conquest... and the friendliest bunch of members then any other site out there. We have members of all ages, including some older geezers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif that tend to get into some sort of mischief every once in awhile and have to have the younger ones help him out http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif SEIV you fight with single ships or fleets of ships, you have fighters, drones, carriers etc. more for the buck IMHO, so I would ck them out and chose wisely... Welcome to the forum and don't be afraid to ask questions or jump into a thread.. have fun and enjoy yourself

Re: hello and help
 

I have played both and although I liked a lot of what GalCiv had to offer, the game play was simply just to boring for me. SE IV Gold has far more depth to it than GalCiv, and is simply the better of the two games hands down. Hell GalCiv isn't even really a 4x game. Comparing SEIV to GalCiv is like comparing Star Craft to Age Of Empires. Which of the two gave you greater game play depth?

Re: hello and help
 

Starcraft ofcourse!

Re: hello and help
 

Star Craft was a great game, but AOE was far more involving for longer periods. GalCiv is a great game, but has no replay appeal whereas Space Empires has tons.

Go figure.

Re: hello and help
 

Try both demo's, don't just go with opinion.

But, just to give mine, I played the galciv demo for 5 maybe ten minutes and uninstalled it. But that's just me.

Re: hello and help
 

I know that the dicussion has been hammered to death over this topic spread out over this forum and others now for over a couple of years.

I recall reading one post on the MOO3 forum where someone dared say that MOO3 was the best 4x game ever made. Then someone posted a link to Malfadors web site and the demo. A few hour slater, the poster came back and posted a correction.

Any one who thinks Moo3 is better than SEIV is IMHO insane. Any one who thinks that Gal Civ is better than SEIV has not played SE IV. Nuff said.

Re: hello and help
 

Moo3 is better than GalCiv IMHO

And after the last patch, the game was pretty decent, but it was still annoying and boring at times (GalCiv is just plain boring and silly)

Infact, if I ever find my moo3 cd, I might just play it again... just for the purpose of wasting a few hours http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: hello and help
 

I played GalCiv in the OS/2 days as well, and I gotta say, the AI wasn't that great. I found the game compelling, working out all the ins and outs of the rules, but it was easy enough to build just enough to not alert the AI, and then counter attack when the AI declared war. That's what some people gripe about SE4 -- the AI seem s unpreditable, declaring way when friendly, and not giving up when all is lost. That's just to avoid falling into the trap of the crafty human player, with his gigantic fleet, offering trade deals.

The big thing was that OS/2 was multithreaded, so the AI could do so much more in the background, but like the Imperator says, the game is so abstracted, it could all be an algorithm, and wouldn't make much of a difference.

Re: hello and help
 

GalCiv 2 Demo lasted for under 5 minutes on my HD... SEIV has been there for two or three years. SEIV is easily comprehensible, you figure out the basics in a couple of minutes, and when you've got the basics figured out the rest will come with time... it's an easy-to-use GUI, too. GalCiv 2 was not very comprehensible, had a weird tech/ship system, colonization was odd, etc. In short, it was a totally crappy game - the only plus side was, that the aliens were incomprehensible until you discover Universal Translator... but that is offset by two minuses:
1. You can only play as the Humans (who have apparently invented the hyperdirve and gave it to all other aliens then for some reason lost contact or something), and
2. You get universal translators really, really fast. About two or three turns after my first alien message I got it - and that was the total research time.
In SEIV, you get to play as any race of your choice, all fully customizable from their culture and if they're friendly or genocidal all the way to exactly how much stronger they are when compared to other species. No weird "systems" GalCiv style here (i.e. no suns simply lying in a patch of space in which you could freely roam, with the drawback that a ship seemed to be the same size as a solar system. I don't know when you start fighting, I never got to that point.) because SEIV has a set number of systems (you cannot create more systems ingame, only in the mapeditor) which are connected by wormholes called "warp points" (and yes, you can create and destroy those too.). This means that you will have to watch your back more, since an enemy could easily sneak into your home system through an unexplored WP (Warp Point) or they could open one themselves (and yes, you can shield from that, too - though the shield generator for that is very expensive.) to let their assault fleet in.

SEIV rocks. GalCiv is barely sand.

Re: hello and help
 

Imho bad comparison, Star Craf is popular up to this day, and I'd think even more so than AOE.


Anyways, imho SE4 is better than any 4X game on the market atm, except maybe for stars! which is in it's own way better or worse than SE4. depending on what you look at.

Re: hello and help
 

Even after that patch I still found the game to be more like an pre-alpha rather than an actual finsihed product. To bad, after waiting all those years, seeing all that money shelled out, reading about all those programers putting in so many hours on the game, and in the end, a game made by one man over the course of a year and a half completely and utterly obliterated them. Go SE IV go.

Re: hello and help
 

Sorry to derail the topic (slightly) but:

Would it be worth it to buy MOO II?? Cost would be about $10 US.

Re: hello and help
 

Ive never played it, but Ive heared that Moo2 was a good game

Well, most people say it was definatly better than Moo3 at least http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: hello and help
 

i like moo2 if you can i think you should buy it.

Re: hello and help
 

Yes. MOO2 was superior to SE4 in some ways...

Re: hello and help
 

Examples? I played MoO1 and MoO3, but never MoO2.

Re: hello and help
 

I don't remember much, but I liked it.

Re: hello and help
 

MoO2 was fun, but the AI might actually be worse than SEIV's. I have several times won a game on "Impossible" difficulty without ever colonizing anything, not even in my home system. I have also read accounts of a "No-tech" win, though I haven't tried it myself.

Re: hello and help
 

But BOTF was superior to Moo2 yet not so superior to SEIV. I would compare SEIV to Stars - but even then its a loose comparison.

Games like Imperium Galatic II and Reach For The Stars were hyped as awsome 4x games, but both fell horribly short of the mark. I never really played Stars, could not get into it. But the demo for SE IV sold me within 20 turns. That being said, I have played Moo 2 and disliked it. I found it to be kind of depressing to play, lacking really, dated, and not all that it was hyped up to be. Hell BOTF blew it away and for game play, but was plagued by micro-managment issues.

Re: hello and help
 

MOO2 had space monsters. That speaks for itself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Sometimes, random wandering space monsters would attack a system. Or even the dreaded Antarans would send a small force to wipe you out (or an AI empire). Space monsters guarding a system usually guarded a planet with something interesting on it. Could be a pirate cache for some quick money, an abandoned colony that you can resynch with and get free pop, a planet inhabited by primitive natives that you can add to your empire (they could only work as farmers, but were good at it), ruins with techs in them, or other interesting things. Far more interesting than SEIV's boring ruins system.

MOO2 had a better combat system. There were shield facings, movement costs to turn, much more interesting devices to add to your ships (a device to randomly spin an enemy ship, a device to place an enemy ship in a stasis bubble, devices that would do damage on the next few turns to a ship, etc.), devices that let you fire weapons twice a round, in-combat cloaking devices (though phased cloaking + whatever the temporal device that let your ship have an extra turn, every turn, was extremely unbalanced), a vastly superior mount system (more variables were affected, and you could apply more than one mount to a weapon, so long as they were not of conflicting types), etc., etc., etc. Unlike SEIV, MOO2 had an initiative system. Initiative was mostly determined by ship speed, but there might have been a few small factors that played into it. I forget. Anyways, the ship with the most initiative would act first in a round, regardless of which side controlled it. Unless you had a significant advantage over the enemy (or disadvantage), you would generally see a few ships on one side move, then a few on the other side, then a few on the first, and so on.

The tech tree was somewhat boring though, as there were only 8 or 10 tech areas (I forget how many) that represented general fields, such as Physics, Propulsion, Construction, etc. You would research these over and over. Each level had a different name though, and they had an interesting system where you could only choose one item from each level (unless you had the creative trait). The other items could then only be acquired in trade with other races.

Race design was roughly on par with SEIV. While the basic traits were less detailed (choose -1, +1, or +2 in an area or somesuch rather than SEIV's percent system), the advanced traits were often more interesting. They were often more far-reaching in affect. I don't remember most of the specifics, but a google search will probably find a MOO2 fansite...

Of course, capturing enemy races was far, far more interesting in MOO2. They actually retained their native abilities, not just magically functioned as your own people do, save atmosphere. There was also no atmosphere as in SEIV. Instead, each planet had a different type, such as irradiated, rocky, arid, terran, swamp, etc. This applied equally to all races, except Aquatic races. They treated all planets with water as one class higher than normal.

The diplomacy model was more functional than SEIV, if less detailed. The AI actually did what it said it would in a diplomatic agreement. Usually. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

The AI in MOO2 was no better or worse than the SEIV AI. Neither series has ever been known for its AI...

Systems in MOO2 were less detailed than SEIV. No storms, though there were real asteroid belts (which you could eventually build artificial planets out of, or create by blowing up enemy planets). http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You could not move in a system, only between them. All ships were just in a system or in transit to another system. There was a maximum of 5 or 6 planets per system. They planets actually orbited the stars and rotated though, so that was nifty. Far better than GalCiv though, as different races could occupy the same system. Planets had a type (irradiated, barren, arid, swamp, arctic, terran, etc.), value (not in percents, but more finite quantities), and size. Somewhat like SE4, except that any race could colonize any planet from the beginning of the game. Not all were very useful to colonize for a long time though...

Planetary management was more detailed. Each unit of population was specified as being in food production, resource production, or research production. This lead to more micromanagement in the endgame though. Going back to the racial traits, the basic ones, like food modifiers, would affect how much food each unit of population produced. Facilities generally modified what the poplution produced, or how fast it grew, or were defensive installations (fighter pads, missile silos, troop barracks, training facilities, etc.). All facilities were buildable on all planets. Production was not limited by number of facilities, but rather by population (and planetary value). Population limits depending on size and type of planet. You could terraform planets to improve their type.

Sadly, MOO2 was never made moddable... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

That's probably enough for now.

My oh my... how could I forget these last two? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

MOO2 had leaders! These were either system governors or ship captains, depending on the leader. You could only have 4 of each. They naturally provided a bonus to the planet they were on or system they were in, or to the ship they captained or the fleet they were in.

MOO2 had that often requested feature where you need special facilities to build larger ship hulls. You would have to build a space station or battle station to build the larger ship hulls.

And one more thing about techs... MOO2 did not have levels of components. There was just Laser Cannon, Plasma Cannon, whatever. However, when you researched a more advanced level of the area that gave you that weapon, the obselete items would be miniaturized a bit. So in essence, there were levels, where the more advanced ones were made smaller and smaller as more tech was researched (up to some minimum size).

Re: hello and help
 

You found a place to buy MOO2? Where?

Re: hello and help
 

You may stone me for saying this but it sounds a lot like MoO3 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: hello and help
 

Imperator Fyron said:
"MOO2 had space monsters. That speaks for itself. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Sometimes, random wandering space monsters would attack a system. Or even the dreaded Antarans would send a small force to wipe you out (or an AI empire)."

Ah yes, but GalCiv in the OS/2 days had the Ominarians. They were a nasty genocidal race that always declared war on everyone, and could reappear, even after they were killed off. In GalCiv it was so worthwhile to have a buffer zone against them that I'd even gift weapons tech to the aggressive races (making sure I had slightly better tech, of course)

You can't really gift the Sergetti some weapons as a buffer against the Rage, for an SE4 example. The Sergetti won't take it, and there aren't make or break techs in SE4. And the Sergetti are sure to turn on you as well as the Rage. So these diplomatic tricks aren't part of an SE4 game. Meh.

'Couse the Devnull mod has space monsters modded in. So there's another SE4 strength.

Re: hello and help
 

I personally did not like Moo2. There I said it.

Re: hello and help
 

Interesting, because you liked a lot BOTF and think both games are close in many concepts (and in some aspects, like the combat and the lack of ship designes, BOTF was worst than MOO2, IMHO of course).

Well... considering your feelings about the Star Trek universe, think it was a good reason to you, to love BOTF.

I have played most the games named here (SEIV, BOTF, MOO1 to 3, Pax Imperia 2, GalCiv, etc), and in my view, SEIV it's the best hands down... but my favorite second was MOO2.

Purchase this game by 10 bucks, it's a true bargain!

Re: hello and help
 

I like BOTF because it made sense and I could follow what was going on. Moo2 was just pick something and research it. I hated that funky feel the game had too. Perhaps if I had gotten into before buying SE IV, then maybe things would be differant. Oh well.

Re: hello and help
 

damn fyron, now i have to install moo2, i have to play, i have to play, i have to play......

Re: hello and help
 

This don´t look to be true anymore.... a fan released an "OCL Editor" for MOO2 that lets you mod nearly anything, with the sole exception being the AI, but i found it more interesting the capability of modding the tech tree...

I myself changed the tech tree so it would take a lot longer to research all techs, making you really think what you would research next because to achieve the new tech would take a loong time...

The editor allow you to change several other things, like facilities, ships, and weapons and components to the ships, making modding a reality for moo2.

I am playing it again with several modifications (mainly in the tech tree), and there are several mods out there built using the new "OCL editor"... changing the tech tree, the ship sizes, the facilities, weapons and components... but the most fun is to make your own mod...

While the editor don´t allow you to change the AI, the moo2 AI seems resilient enough to handle the changes and can adapt without big problems to the modding.... looks like the Moo2 is in the start of a new revival, as there are several fan-made "patches" to the game, some using the OCL editor and other not, that are "upgrading" the game to fill the void that the failed moo3 left...

i´ll try to find some links for the interested in this board and post them later (or if i can´t find the readily, i´ll post the moo2 OCL editor myself...)

Re: hello and help
 

Found the links, you can find the OCL editor in any of the two links:


http://www.hut.fi/~jmikkone/

or

ftp://ftp.sff.net/pub/people/zoetrope/MOO2/Utilities/

Incidentally, you can find several other utilities for moo2 in the links, but i found the OCL editor the most usefull so far...

Ah, make sure you download also the file "ocl-fmt4.txt" that you can find in the second link, as this file have a more updated explanation of how the OCL input file format works... (you will know what i´m talking about after reading the readme of the OCL editor)...

Re: hello and help
 

Ebay. I'm assuming that MOO2: Battle at Antares is what MOO2 is http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif Never heard it called that before, just "MOO2".

Oh yeah, here's the link in case you wanted it:

Linkage

Re: hello and help
 

MOO2 is also available on Amazon new for $9.99.

Re: hello and help
 

yes the complete name is Master of Orion 2: Battle at antares

Re: hello and help
 

Ooooohhhh.... *drools* Thanks for the info! Now if I can just bash MOO2 into working on win2k...

This would be a far better deal than any Ebay purchase. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

My sentiments exactly!

Re: hello and help
 

for me it works ALMOST perfectly but sometimes the programs seems to crash or something and i ended on the windows desktop.

and something i don't know if you know it, but windows 2k, has (at least on the service pack 2), a "compatibility mode" like XP, to enable it, you must register a DLL if my memory don't fails it's name is slayerui.dll, it's on "[WinDir]\apppath\", for example, on a DOS box you type, "regsvr32 c:\windows\apppath\slayerui.dll", and message box should appear telling you it's successfull etc, then you create a shortcut to the program EXE, then go to the shortcut properties and you'll a tab with the name "Compatibility" (i'm seeing it right now), you can try this if you have problems under W2k.

Re: hello and help
 

what the hell happened with my post?!?!?!?!?!?

sorry about that, damn opera...., some moderator delete this post if you want.

Re: hello and help
 

Why, what's wrong with Ebay?? Remember, it's not just the box price that matters to me, its the shipping...many places want up to an extra $7.50 US just for the shipping...the place I linked to will give you shipping to Canada for $2.50. More than enough to make up for what Ebay's commissions cost.

(By the way Fyron, in TGE3 your planets are coming. My internet was down for 2 days and I missed the turn deadline. Have sent you the gift this current turn. Just posted it here because I'm too lazy to send an email http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif )

Re: hello and help
 

Yeah, Moo2 and XP don´t mix well... why you don´t do what i did? I created a dual-boot (three-boot if you count a linux partition) system with windows 98 and windows XP... when i wish to play calssic games like moo2 i use my win98 partition, and for everything else i use XP...

My notebook (where i play mostly, since i travel a lot) is divided in this way:
2 GB - Win98 (fat32) partition
2 GB - WinXP (NTFS) partition
1 GB - Linux partition
25 GB - FAT32 partition with all games and programs...

2 GB is more than enough for a dedicated WinXP partition, sicne all non-system programs can be installed in the fat32 partition withut any problems... i noticed that 2GB for win98 is too overkill and i believe that a 1GB partition should be more than enough, but i´m too lazy to change it now...

Re: hello and help
 

Fine, I will re-install Moo2 and give it a whirl. OBT, Nexus (Fomerly Imperium Galatica III) has been released if any one is interested. It is not like IGII, it is more of a fleet battle sim than a 4x game. (A lot more)

Re: hello and help
 

MOO2 doesn't work well in W2K. I get crashes on the desktop when I play further and game grows. At early game there is no problems. W98 and W95 it works perfectly.

If you still want to play it on W2K, make sure, that end of every turn you browse through your production list (start this at around after turn 150 or first crash) and be sure the there is no queue going empty next turn. It often crashes just after turn execution when your "empty production list" colonies are thrown in front of you before you start playing turn. Avoid this.

Also, if your game crahses so that you can't see anything, or mouse doesn't work, your keyboard still works. Just hit esc until you are on main screen, then push G to go to game menu, push S to go to save, hit Enter to save, hit esc to go back on game menu and hit Q to quit and then Enter to confirm. THat way you can save your game even when your mouse doesn't work. Also keep autosave on all the time.

MOO2 was one of the greatest strategy games I have ever played. Unfortunately it is not (very) moddable (I haven't vehcked those links mentioned in this thread) but still it's THE GAME.