Lower level summons?
 

Just wondering: who uses lower-level non-national summons, and if so, which ones which are not Summon Vine Ogre? By these I mean things like Fire Drake, Scorpion Beast, Summon Shades or Reanimation (the death spell, not the unholy command) and the like.

I would basically like to know this: Do you save (or "hoard") your gems for later use once you get higher-level spells, or do you spend them sooner (or asap) to get those summons you can cast now.

I ask because I tend to do the former, except for Vine Ogre, which I use in conjunction with that crown which gets you an extra one. I find the other lower-level summons not "worth it" for the short-term gain in immediate firepower over longer-term gain when casting the sexier spells you can get a few turns later.

I am hoping that lots of people will say the opposite; but if not, this would seem to me to be an (albeit: weak) "argument" in favor of slightly boosting the power of lower level summons and slightly nerfing the power of higher level summons (for a patch or dom3), since these spells would go into the (albeit: small) batch of "I never cast these; why are they in the game?".

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I like Call of the Wild for the werewolf, who can summon a free wolf per turn. I could see using Call of the Winds for early raiding.

I look for either large numbers or a commander who can summon allies. Otherwise the gem cost is way too high for what you're getting -- fodder.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Call of winds , spirit mastery , behemoth , pale riders and fire snakes i occasionally use .

And of course most lowlvl blood spells if needed , especially crossbreeding quite often http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Almost always you fare better though by using your deathgems for banelords , a "lowlevel" summon with only conj 5 also or saving your blood to get as many IDs/ADs as possible .

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I find Fiends of Darkness and Devils to be excellent low level summons ( level 2 blood and 3 blood ). The requirements on summoning devils precludes many nations from summoning them though.

For underwater fun Kraken are a fine buy for 3 gems.

While not exactly a low level summon I find that banefire archers are an excellent buy. They are "low" in that enchantment is excellent for death nations.

With Zen's mod the Seasonal Spirits are very nice and worth the gems.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I've been known to summon wyverns. Not because I think they are anywhere near worth their cost, but because wyverns are really cool creatures http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I'll use Spirit Mastery quite often. Cheap walls of chaff are always a good thing and you can never have enough.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Hey great thanks so far

- I dont think that Calls of Anything, Spirit Mastery, or Fire Snakes can be considered low level summons. Let us say:

Nothing over /school level 4/ is "low level" (Spirit Mastery is 5 unless nation-specific, Fire Snakes I forget but I know it is more than 4).

Call of Wilds/Winds I dont consider a "summons" despite their belonging to that school (much the way that Acashic is in that school) because it does not give you troops or commanders in the province of the summoner.

Yes, Behemoth would be the other one I find good. Interestingly, Behemoth has really a lot of "flavor".

1 Wyvern summoner -- good!
1 FoD and devil summoner -- good!

Where are the others? Who gets Vine Men? Who gets soulless? Who gets Drakes?

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Kraken is useful in the water. The seasonal spirits (esp. Lions) can also be useful, but they have a tendency to die and be expensive as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif You can add the 1st level beast summons to armies (esp. those w/ high morale). Scorpion Beasts, Wyverns, and Drakes are good for this. Of course, these units effectiveness to cost ratio is bad and they're usefulness quickly peters out in the wake of Vine Ogres. Wights are good too, but I usually summon just a few and then hold off for Legion. I use Vine MEN as a meat shield against cavalry.... Of course, most of the time I skip ALL of the 4th and lower summons except the Vine spells and cast one or more of the Court spells at Level 6 (Troll, Sea Troll, Draconian, Ether Gate...). The Level 6 summons are where you start to get some meaty troops--I save my gems.

In Enchantment, I use Create Revenant to boost research (I prefer Spectres though), Behemoths are very nice, and I will also use Claymen in a pinch (I usually don't clam very heavily). If you have nice longdead (e.g. Jotunheim, C'tis), you can use Reanimation to create a nice little group of more powerful skeletons. Revive King is useful if you only have weak necromancers (or blood mages) to lead undead.

I have been known to use Corpse Man Construction. Yes, I know they suck, but if you use a staff of storms, they're almost to cheap to pass up. Of course the staff is usually more useful on the battlefield, but until opponents start fielding large amounts of flyers, Frankenstein is cheaper than dirt.

Any blood summon is worthwhile, although I usually skip Spine Devils and Bone Fiends and Serpent Fiends. I use Crossbreeding to create patrolling armies for my hunting grounds.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Black Servants are good for mules if you want to hoard.

Mound Kings can be useful for ferrying troops around.


One high level summon I don't understand is eater of the dead. They have a lot of hitpoints but for the most part I can't seem to use them effectively...does anyone use them and if so, how?

Re: Lower level summons?
 

The cave drake can be useful sometimes in earlygame as Tank who attracts spells .

Position it in a forward position and then it will soak up a lot of damage spells like the fire + earth spells . Good for ulm and machaka if you research conj 3 first for summon EP and then evocation 6 for magma eruption .

If i hoard fetishes but have no good use for extragold because i have only capitol only mages and no good troops i summon lots of Summer Lions .
They can then at least serve as fire immune tanks .

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I made good use (for my own standards) of drakes, scorpion beasts, prides of lions, wights, etc.

Hoarding or using now depends on the situation: how soon I need things, what else I need the gems for, which free casters I have available, research expectations, opponents, number of gems available, etc.

I think many of these are good for early-research situations. I agree that later in the research tree, there are summons which are fairly easy to summon which tend to be better and not much more expensive.

My current mod effort in progress makes the more powerful high-research items more difficult to cast in terms of expense and magic power required. I'm really liking the results so far.

PvK

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Just glancing through Edi's excellent unit reference, and here are some low level summons that appear to not be used too often.

Corpse Construct
Various Animals (from Summon Animals)
Bog Beast
Various Drakes
Kithaironic Lion
Lumber Construct
Bane
Scorpion Beast
Shade Beast
Revenant

Re: Lower level summons?
 

<font class="small">Code:</font><hr /><pre>
Vine Ogre Lumber Construct

Cost 1N 5N

Magic Path 3N 3N

Research conj 3 const 5

Hit Points 53 60

Protection 5 12

Morale 50 50

Magic res. 5 12

Encumbrance 0 0

Strength 18 20

Attack 12 8

Defense 3 7

Move(map/ap) 2/12 3/ 7

Attacks 2 fists 1 fist

Differing Forest Magic Being, Lifeless,
abilities Survival Never Heals
</pre><hr />

I can't imagine ever getting a construct for 5 times the cost, and that doesnt even take into account an ivy crown...

Re: Lower level summons?
 

The Lumber Construct is lifeless. That is worth something sometimes. But for x5 the cost? No thanks I'll go with the vine ogre.

However comparing anything to Vine Ogres is usually a no brainer. It is very hard to beat their price/performance.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Mound Kings have been mentioned already as a useful ferry, but I am wondering if anyone has ever really exploited their unique characteristic: 4 strategic movement. Outisde of Vastnesses and horrors, I think these are the only summons which can move 4 provinces, and the cost is minimal: 3 death gems and 1 death required to summon.

This has to be insanely useful in some situation. Of course, they are hindered by not having feet, and thus are difficult to equip for flying (Stymphalian Wings and Magic carpets are possible), and there aren't any fast (4 movement troops) for them to lead across great distances. But you could easily summon a small squad, and send them places where you foe knows nobody can reach in one turn. The only question is what the best gear for them is...

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Bog Beasts are available for C'tis Miasma as starting spell, but I could not find a good use for them. They die pretty easily, but you cannot stack them with C'tis troops either, for Miasma is lacking 100% poison proof units and 50% resistance does not help at all against the bog beaste poisoneous aura.

Of course, one could stack them with VineOgres, but VineOgres are bad for Miasma, since they become diseased and suffer full from the effect (neither having a cold blooded, swamp survival or undead flag).

Maybe they are useful if they are buffed with some protection - or does anyone know some cheap meatshields that are both miasma &amp; poison proof?
(Raise Dead, of course, but Miasma's Marshmasters need SkullStaffs for spamming it...)

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Constructs? Claymen or clockwork horrors perhaps? Not that either are all that cheap.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Claymen cast by W9E4 Daughter of the Land are surprisingly cheap... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif And you also get Reanimation, Raise Dead/Skeletons and (although these aren't low-level anymore) Undead Horsemen, Banefire Archers, Enlivened statues and Demiliches.

I would love to get W9EX and Golem Cult, but there aren't many nations that I play so that they benefit from Magic 1+ and Prod 1+... And I don't think there is any that benefits of Enchantment in those, or any which would benefit from W9EX or WXE9, or even W9E9 enough for it to pay off. Golem Cult-boosted Claymen and Enlivened Statued would be interesting, but the need for both production and magic is a killer that puts off all Earth nations... Ulm takes drain and has no blessable units, Vanheim and Pangaea benefit of both blessings but need sloth to pay for extreme pretender.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Endoperez, what about Machaka? It's an earth nation (okay, earth/fire/nature(/death) nation), which has blessable troops, has resource-intensive troops, mages that benefit from magic scale and hot temperature scale for extra points. And benefits from Enchantment, IIRC Flaming Arrows is from that research tree.

...I'm not sure, though, how even they would affort such an expensive blessings...

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Machaka seems to be the one that everyone who has talked about clay/golem cult has thought of. It is probably the best, but its blessable hunter spiders are pretty expensive. Like you said, its tough to get both scales and high bless.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I find the Revenant to be a very useful summon in high Magic dominions. They can be summoned relatively cheaply to add a great deal to your research bar without the single commander per state per round limit and they don't require maintainance gold. Spectres are better, but that's no 3rd level 2D summon.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Hmm... Does anyone know exactly which summons benefit from Golem Cult? Is it all earth summons, or just like a specific list, or all magic being + lifeless summons or something like that?

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Hey thanks.
It is as I feared for 90% of the summons, then.

NERF! NERF!!!
(Heheh.)

No, but seriously, it is something to consider for dom3.

PvK, do you think you could post (or send me) your Mod, I would greatly be interested in it. Thanks!

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I would prefer to see lame spells (including most lower level summons) improved instead of good spells nerfed. Even before I knew what the higher level summons were, I would read the descriptions of most of the lower level summons and wonder why I would ever waste a mage's time with those spells.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

[rant]
That is what I don't understand about the people on this forum. If you nerf the good summons or improve the lousy ones the result is almost the same. In fact, the only real difference is that by nerfing the good ones you are also making national troops better, which is a very good thing, whereas if you improve the weaker ones, national troops just become more useless than they already are... I guess people are just scared of the word 'nerf'; Zen is over there balancing the game by improving weak summons and everyone loves it, but let someone suggest nerfing something overpowered, like devils, and they get ripped for it.
[/rant]

Re: Lower level summons?
 

It's not the same. I told you that before I had even seen an ice devil or a wraith lord in action, I thought that lower level summons bit the big one. It is not a comparison issue for me. Many of the spells are lame, in and of themselves. If all spells become that lame, I will find another game.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

As Mictlan, I used them to express-ferry blood slaves. Adds speed and reduces micromanagement.

PvK

Re: Lower level summons?
 

As for saving gems for higher level summoning spells, I try to do this as much as I can.

Earth - Mechanical men are vastly superior to clockwork horrors as well as pretty much any other earth summons. You can't always wait for this, as your neighbors often times interrupt grand plans!

Death - The death summons are so very powerful at the higher levels, that I also like to hoard those for a rainy day. Unless you consider Bane Lords to be a lower level summons, as I tend to use that one a lot. Black Servents are very good for fever fetishes, clams, and exploring.

Water - Not very useful for summons. I suppose getting the sea troll kings is done just for the one water gem income per turn and the attached water skill to build clams. That hardly counts, though, for the goal is usally clams and not troops here. The sea trolls themselves are useful fodder, of course, but the fact that you have to pay them upkeep renders them practically useless.

Nature - pretty much everybody I know uses the ivy crown for monthly ritual vine ogres, one of the best bargain summoned troop in the game. Later, the fairy queens are good for the healing ability.

Air - I usually save up the 45 gems for draconians. The leaders can summon more, which is very nice. And they fly, which is a HUGE bonus. The hawks have the gigantic disadvantage that you have to pay them upkeep.

Fire - I don't summon fire much, for the gems are typically better used to convert to money for buying more mages.

Blood - Devils, devils, and more devils. Is there a better low-level summoned troop for the gem cost than a devil? I don't really know of one. Oh, and the ice devils and arch devils too. They are still devils, though. Don't foget soul contracts also, if your neighbors leave you alone.

Astral - Are there any astral summons worth casting other than those high-level abominations that require 25 gems? I don't really know of any.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Actually the living statues can be almost as good and perhaps better *if* you don't expect constant wrathful skies.

In my mind they are the best price/performers in the game even including devils.

Hmm never really thought much about these. But if the head draconian can summon allies then the spell becomes much more attractive!

I would have to say Vine Ogres are a better buy taking cost into effect, unless ...

Well soul contacts totally change the economics of summoning devils. It takes what, 8.5 turns to break even on a soul contract ( assuming hammer )? More if you have a construction site ( which is much more common than a blood site ). You also needen't burn caster turns summoning the things anymore. They are the best buy in the game (yes, devils bought via contract are better than Vine Ogres, IMO ).

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I summon the Angelic host for the fire mage, who with a little work is some really heavy artillery, and is reasonably tough. The other high level astral summon, Ether Gate gets you another excellent mage, who often has good SC potential. Also, when you consider the high armor and etearealness of the ether warriors, they aren't all that expensive gem for gem.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

There are plenty of people who don't want to see the game degenerate into a zerg rush of national troops. The opportunity cost of a level of magic research is quite large, so the benefit you receive should also be quite large.

No, I would say it's more likely that people get ripped for making a statement of opinion as though it were a fact.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I think water summons are useful ... underwater. Sea trolls are useful if you use them right away instead of keeping them sitting around eating children. Put them to use right away - they are a way to instantly create a fast and fairly tough instant army which can fight underwater:

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]
[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]
[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]
[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]
[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img] [img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Cold.gif[/img]

Sea monsters and kraken are also good underwater units.

PvK

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I LOVE playin' Blood Factions. And there's nothing better for blood hunting than a bunch of hawks. 25-50 hawks in each provice and your bloodhunting with the best of them. Not to mention Impossible to assassinate or get spyed on.

Gold is over-rated. After turn 30 it's a none issue if your cruizin.
-Yc

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Yeah access to fire is nice, but holy-4 doesn't hurt either.

Water queens seem to be the best water summon. The sea troll king is nice but sometimes I don't want the annoying high upkeep of all the sea trolls.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Hawks for <font color="red">blood</font> hunting? I thought only the leader mattered for blood hunting, and that his blood magic skill and items determined his effectiveness. And, why can't a hawk be assassinated just like any other blood hunting commander?

I can see hawk commanders being (sillily) good for blood slave transportation, but not for hunting. Am I wrong about some thing(s)?

PvK

Re: Lower level summons?
 

I think it is for the patrolling.

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Hm. How many blood slaves can an unladen hawk carry? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Lower level summons?
 

All commanders can carry 30 blood slaves. A hawk can carry 30
-Yc

Re: Lower level summons?
 

Yeah, I know. It's just... odd.

(And you can also take blood slaves underwater, although you can't collect more, or cast any spells or rituals which require them, IIRC. Forging using blood slaves, 'tho, seems to be unaffected.)

Re: Lower level summons?
 

African or European?

Re: Lower level summons?
 

At least SOMEONE got the joke!