OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Forbidden Planet - Star Trek

I recently watched the movie the Forbidden Planet and I have to say that the similarities between this movie and Star Trek are too numerous to list. I was amazed at the quality of the movie, the look, the feel, and the technology that they used in the movie. For a movie that is over 40 years old, it is actually quite good.

I loved the story and how the ID, now I know where ID Software got its name, played an intelligent part of the movie. I can see where Gene R. got his idea for Star Trek, including the NCC number 1701. (Listen to the beginning of the movie, the helmsmen mentions it.)

Leslie Nelson (sp) did a very good job in the movie, and the actor Walter P. has one of those voices that you wish you simply bottled up and use whenever you need a quality voice over.

I really liked the movie, and am just amazed at how much of an influence the movie had on Star Trek.

Dune - Star Wars

As I listen to the Dune series on audio cd, I can see where Lucas got his ideas for Star Wars. Again the comparisons are too many to list.

The idea of the Jedi are closely match to the Freemon or rather the being that Paul’s is transformed into. The training of the wereding way can be used as the road map to the training a Jedi as they learn to use the force.

The Empire is young, but the republic for which gave it birth is vastly old.

Dune was clearly Lucas's inspiration for Star Wars.


Lord Of The Rings = Babylon 5.

I have said this before and made this comparison many times. B5 is a lot like LOTR in subtle ways that cannot be ignored. I know that it is an old discussion, but I could not find the link. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

I find it inspiring to know that some of the greatest Sci-Fi franchises found their birth based on other great sci-fi works.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I dunno, my high school English teacher always thought that Star Wars was a western in space. The burned out farm scene is very reminiscent of a number of westerns. He pointed out that the background music for Shane was used for some scenes in Star Wars. They have a similar plot as well, two guys fighting for the honor of one girl.

I remember when I heard an interview with the actor who played Darth Vader. Not James Earl Jones, the guy in the suit. He described how they learned to do the first light saber fights with a Kendo master. All I could think was "Weak! Light saber fighting is just Kendo."

I think this has come up before. Everything is derivative of something else. Though my English teacher was always excited. These epic, broad sweeping, television shows and movies are our civilization's Beowulf. They speak about our time to future generations.

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Your school english teacher needs to read the Dune series. Once that is done, all the peaces fall into place. Lucas was deeply inspired by dune.

Gene R. said that Star Trek is like a wagon train in space. I always thought he used that anology to sell the show because it really is far more like Forebiddon Planet than any western I have ever seen.

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Unfortunately (or fortunately) you will find in pop culture, literature and all other forms of art, that imitation and re-invention are common.

An example is Shakespeare whose works were inspired by "historical" documents of his day and the folk history of people. Many of his stories were lifted directly from their historical source. The plays were considered trite and plebian in their day, but still stand today as some of the greatest ever written.

I guess there's no real point to this other than to say that disappointment in an unoriginal idea shouldn't lessen your enjoyment of the "copy". But Lucas himself has always admitted that he used a lot of sociology and myth sources to generate his saga.

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Lucas is such a BS'er that its funny. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif I remember seeing interview of him and thinking to myself, at age 8 or 9, that he stumbled onto the Star Wars success by happen stance. At age 8 or 9 I thought this based off of interviews he gave back then. I wish my 8 year old nephews were as interested in Ep III as I was in Episdoe IV. God I am old. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

We are all old if we remember forbidden planet, Read Asimov and Hienlen(sp) and Tolkien and others in high school or earlier.

But as long as we don't let our minds grow old and weak we can imagine and dream.

And play SEIV.

http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

My body in the morning tells me I'm 37.

But for some reason, my "feeling" about my self seems to hover around 17.

I just realized the other day that Van Halen's "1984" is of course over 20 years old. And that made me feel old. That was the biggest album of my highschool years.

OK, as usual we're way OT in the first page already and I think this time it's my fault.

BWAAAAAAha-ha-ha-haaaaaaaa!
Turin
http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

COme on you guys you aren't old. I have to wake up and say damn i'm fifteen and i need surgery:-d

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If I recall right, Star Trek was supposed to the Western in Space, IE: Wagon Train to the Stars

And StarWars was supposed to be like an Epic/Pirate/Fantasy Movie in Space.


But if you review the original concepts of the series, you'll see how the series started totalyl different.

Spock, for example, was supposed to be red and ate stuff via a metal plate in his stomach. The Klingons were supposed to be something totally different and non-humanoid race named "Trox" or something like that. And the Enterprise's missions (Yorktown originally) were supposed to travel to parellel earths. The concept was actually pretty clever since it would have made use of every existing set at the time in hollywood and require only a handful of new sets.

The concept survived in partial form into the proudction of star trek, but later served as a foundation for series like the Time Tunnel and Sliders.

Star Wars, in the original script, involved a General Luke Skywalker trying to get the brains of some scientists to clone bodies and away from the clutches of imperial capital, It started with a G, I can't remember it fully, but it reminded me of a gastro-intestinal disorder.

But to further cement WildCard's comment with something I heard at the Sci-Fi/Fantasy Writer's Guild

Nothing ever created is original. when you think you're original, then someone else already done it a hundred times before you.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I don't want to be a party pooper but I do think the Dune/Star Wars comparison is wrong. Dune is written very much as an allegory to the problems and cultures of the current middle east. The spice is characterized by oil (which really does rule the known universe), and the Emperor is basically the British Empire, since at the time they still had a great command of the region. The Fremen are sometimes compared to the Bedouins, but it is more likely Arabs in general were the basis for the Fremen. Once the first book was written, he eschewed the original tenor a bit and made the series stranger and stranger, but nevertheless his initial inspiration was the effects of oil on the international community.

Star Wars was made with the old west in mind, and he included magic to help build his myth, since so much of our past includes tales of miracles and other "magic" occurrences.

I'll go with you on Forbidden Planet, though.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Jules Verne was certainly one of the earliest Sci-Fi pioneers.

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For those who have yet to read the Foundation series, do so ASAP.

For thoes who have read them, ever get the feeling that Lucas read them too.

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I'm not sure I see any reseblance between The Forbidden Planet and Star Trek other than they are both sci-fi and both had similer visual styles. (At least if you are talking about TOS, which I assume you are.) There's not much connection in the story. Forbidden planet is also not an original story. It's a sci-fi telling of Shakespears "The Tempest". Of course Shakespear probably stole it from some Italian folk tale or something. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Here's a website that shows the connection between the two stories. LINK

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

And it turns out that Shakespeare was the inspiration for Forbidden Planet. Compare The Tempest where an old 'wizard' (Prospero) and his daughter are rescued by an arriving ship. But not before a good bit of trouble with 'spirits' and such. Yes, there is nothing truly original. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

There are also clear references to The Lord of the Rings in Star Wars. Lucas admitted somewhere or other that Obi Wan Kenobi is a Gandalf derivative, for example. And some other SciFi like Asimov's Foundation novels also seem to have influenced him.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I agree with you 100% with the exception that Lucas was inspired by Dune. I have been listening to the series on audio cd and they share a lot of common threads.

Paul would be Obi Wan, while his son Leto, a twin no less just like Leia and Luke, turns into something like Vader, (God Emperor) as an example.

The seeing into the future, the ability to move before things happen, all of this sings of the Jedi and their force powers.

In dune the Empire is very old, as was the Rebublic in Star Wars. In Dune the Emperor had his dreaded Sadacar (sp) while in Star Wars the Emperor has his Stormtroopers.

Instead of fighting over the spice and a single planet the rebellion becomes the spice and the battle become a fight over good vs evil.

I guess you have to be in the right frame of mind to see the simularities that stood out to me. Star Wars is on its own, one of the greatest sci-fi epics of all time. To bad it was tanted with PM, a good movie that could have been far better, and by AOTC, a horrible movie that at times reminded me of Star Wars.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

There are so many simularities that I could scaresly post them all. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Watch it again and think Star Trek as you watch it. Things like the viewing plat, "speeds many times faster than the speed of light," 1701, Engineer, the primary three actors, a Doctor, a Captian, and his first officer.

The Captain getting the girl, laser guns, or as Robby said, "A simple blaster." The uniformes, albeit not red or gold do set a presidence. They use a rector, wireless communications, even a small tri-corder device.

The ship is a saucer shape, as is the primary hull of the Enterprise. THey have a United Planets compared to the United "federation" of planets. Yes indeed Star Trek has many of the characterstics that Forbidden planet had.

There is nothing wrong with this, I am not complaining or trying to make an issue, I am simply making the comparisson and saying hey this is kinda cool.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Forbidden Planet was a watershed moment in science fiction. It had a tremendous influence on jsut about everything to come after it, so it's not unusual that Rodenberry would insert little homages to it in Trek. The 1701 thing, and the United Federation of Planets are probably something along those lines.

Most of the other stuff you mention are things you will find in many many movies. It's more of a case of both having similer influences than one being based on the other.

Wireless communication. Faster than light travel. Saucer shaped space vehicles. The Captain getting the girl. None of these things are unique to the Forbidden Planet.

The Captain/First Officer/Doctor relationship exsists in almost every naval themed picture ever made. And if you change the ranks a bit you could extend that to most military movies and westerns too. The three-character dynamic is a classic form in literature. Heck, you could, and many have tried too, make the case that it's a platonic form of the love triangle. That's a little wierd for me though, so I'll stop right now. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

SW IS a Dune ripoff. Two people (I believe Frank Herbert was one of them, though I could be wrong) have watched SW and read/watched Dune and noticed at least 17 similarities between the two. I believe that even Lucas himself once said that Dune was a great source of inspiration for SW.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I agree completely. Also, I don't think that any movie maker that has ever read a good sci-fi book or series was NOT influenced somehow by those books.

If they never read anything than maybe it was original.

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So long as it's interesting and not a rip-off, I don't particularly care. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I somehow missed the Death Star in Dune, but...sure, Star Wars is a dune 'ripoff'. :p

I'm confused where the "Foundation" series enters into Star Wars comparison, though.

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Out on a limb here, and I apologise for any spoilers, but perhaps it's because they both have the civilisations threat (or saviour, been awhile since i read foundation) as far away as is possible in a circular galaxy.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

1) A great 'cycle' of civilization. In the case of Foundation it was a specific course of history predicted by 'Psychohistory' while in Star Wars it was this constant oscillating between rule by the Jedi and rule by the Sith.

2) Secret or semi-secret societies with super-human powers ruling known civilization. In Asimov's case it was the "Foundation" itself. In Star Wars it was the Jedi/Sith.

3) Hugely developed capital world where the surface is actually completely covered and no longer accessible. Trantor/Coruscant

I suspect that I could go into more detail if I wanted to re-read the series.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

You might as well, then, say that the Foundation novels were ripping off the famed Lensman books. Those had a epic future history, two secret societies waging a war behind the scenes, and super-powered main actors.

Good books, too.

Or say that anything featuring powered armor is just a ripoff of Heinlein and Steakley.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

What are the Foundation Novels about?

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

From Amazon.com:
Foundation marks the first of a series of tales set so far in the future that Earth is all but forgotten by humans who live throughout the galaxy. Yet all is not well with the Galactic Empire. Its vast size is crippling to it. In particular, the administrative planet, honeycombed and tunneled with offices and staff, is vulnerable to attack or breakdown. The only person willing to confront this imminent catastrophe is Hari Seldon, a psychohistorian and mathematician. Seldon can scientifically predict the future, and it doesn't look pretty: a new Dark Age is scheduled to send humanity into barbarism in 500 years. He concocts a scheme to save the knowledge of the race in an Encyclopedia Galactica. But this project will take generations to complete, and who will take up the torch after him? The first Foundation trilogy (Foundation, Foundation and Empire, Second Foundation) won a Hugo Award in 1965 for "Best All-Time Series." It's science fiction on the grand scale; one of the classics of the field.

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Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Short version:

There was a galactic empire centered around the city-planet of Trantor. A man named Hari Seldon and his assistants developed 'psychohistory', a science that could accurately predict the future of human societies. The Empire was collapsing, and psychohistory showed that it was inevitable. The powers that be didn't like this... He contrived to start a Foundation on a distant planet with no natural resources that would shorten the predicted galactic Dark Ages tenfold. The foundation books chronicle Seldon's struggle and the (predicted) struggles of the Foundation, whose supposed purpose was to create a gigantic encylopedia.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

HA! You noticed this too!!! I think that most of the sci-fi stuff today is made up of stuff borowed from the early pioneers such as Verne and Asimov.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I love the Foundation Series. I've read (and re-read) all of the 7 original Foundation books by Asimov. So far I've only read one of the three new books by the other authors who carried on Asimov's work. It was good but not at the level of Asimov's.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

By the way...Anyone else planning on being at Trantorcon? (Time travel or cyrogenics would seem to be the best bet)

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Yup, I'll be there: I plan on evolving into an immortal energy being.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

I am surprised that I have never before heard of the Foundation series. They sound interesting as all hell. I was once steered toward the Battle Field Earth books, but really did not like them so I stopped reading after about 100 pages.

The Clive Custler "Dirk Pitt" books were like crack to an addict. I loved them.

When I was a junior in HS a friend handed me a Harry Harrison book, The Stainless Steel Rat, and I fell in love with the series. Albeit kind of dumb at times. (Ok, really dumb at times.)

I looked for more sci-fi books to read, but fell into reading other types. The Brotherhood of War series, Criton books, and a whole host of other books from crime drama's to fiction.

But never have I read the Foundation series. I will have to see if I can find a copy of the books at the local discount bookstore.

I have often wondered what the future of science fiction holds. I mean we have many great stories here on this forum that would make very nice books and or series of books, but like the man said today on the news, books rarely sell enough now a days to cover printing costs, so they have to be hyped or have a Hollywood movie deal tied into them.

Speaking of Sci-Fi founders, I would have to say that we have a bit of that here. Using the game, SE IV, how many stories have been written? At least 20 plus, and some of them are quite good and deserving of at least a mini series on the Sci-Fi channel or possibly even a movie.

With all the crap that is coming out lately such as horrible movies like the Forgotten, Alien Vs Predator, and many many more, a good solid space warring movie is needed. And I am not talking about the RoTS, (We need that one too. Fingers crossed that it will be better than its two predecessors).

If I had a choice, and believe me I wish I did, I would learn the art of 3d animation and go to work that industry. I love the work that has been done on such movies as the latest SW flicks, The LOTR series, and many more like them. I want to see my visions come to life under my control.

I would love to write a good story and then make my own movie using 3d animation. Kind of like they did for the Final Fantasy movie.

With the invent, and subsequent improvements of 3d graphics, pioneered by such powerhouses as ILM, imagination is no longer limited by 2d film.

Such stories as Sachmo's Rise of the Remorhaz Society could be realized and expanded upon. A series that I am confident would make a fine addition to the dwindling sci-fi television market.

Now a days the big four networks, ABC, CBS, NBC, and FOX have absolutely no sci-fi shows worthy of mention on the air. Such shows as Enterprise have been cancelled with no real ideas in play for new shows; say for those on the sci-fi channel, but thats cable so it does not count.

The days of Quantum Leap and the X-Files are all but gone, and both of those series saw long runs and solid ratings for years.

So again, I do wonder about the future of science fiction and what we can expect or create.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Nearly anything by Asimov is worth reading; it's emotionally and intelectually interesting. I never got into the foundation series, though, beyond the first book, but that's because it's not my area of interest, not because it wasn't a good book.

Or, for those of you whose brain might be as confusled as mine feels right now, Foundation series good, if that the type of book you like. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Personally, I'd recomend The Caves of Steel and it's related books. I've re-read that one a number of times; plus, they take place in the same universe as the foundation series, only much, much earlier, when humanity is still exploring a small portion of the galaxy.

Re: OT: Sci-Fi Founders
 

Some of my favorite books are the non-fiction books by Asimov. I picked up one at a book sale which was pretty much just a collection of random thoughts about number, number systems, and the history of mathematics. It was quite interesting. He was a very prolific writer. I remember reading once that he took pride in having at least one title for every section of the dewey decimal system.

Asimov
 

narf poit chez BOOM writes:

"Nearly anything by Asimov is worth reading; it's emotionally and intelectually interesting."

Amen. Loved the original "Foundation Trilogy". I was less thrilled with the later Foundation stories, which dragged in his robot writings and that whole weird "Gaia" thing, but they were still as well-written as ever.

For my money, though, his best work was "The End of Eternity", hands down.