Thoughts on food
 

I've been hoping the food (supply) system is one of the things to be changed in Dominions 3. Before I add this to the wish list, I thought I'd put it here for discussion...

Without going into the weakness of the current system, here's what I envision as my ideal Dom 3 supply system:


1) Food consumption is based on a unit's max HP, rather than size. 1 HP = 1 food per turn.

Notes: Because it is based on max HP, HP variations like Gift of Health and Prophet / God dominion bonus do not change food consumption.


2) Mounted units require double the normal food.

Notes: This is intended to model the fact that a mount should be proportional in size to the rider, and typically is able to forage some of its food from things normal units cannot eat (grass, shrubs).


#1 and #2 give the base food consumption of a unit. It's actually simpler than Dominions 2, IMO: 1 food per HP, and double for mounts. However, to better reflect the reality, there are some modifiers that would be great to include:


3) A unit consumes +5% per point of armor encumbrance. This is true for mounted units as well, even though they are unaffected by armor encumbrance in melee combat.

Notes: Thus, heavy infantry and heavy cavalry require more support per unit than their light equivalents.


4) Cold-blooded units consume half the normal amount of food.


5) All units consume 10% more food per cold-scale below their desired level. In other words, Machaka troops consume 10% more food at cold scale 0 and 50% more at cold scale 3, while Vanheim troops consume the normal amount of food at scale 0 and 20% more at scale 3.


6) All animals (units marked with #animal attribute) consume 50% less food than normal.

Notes: This is because they forage better than people, and eat things people don't eat. Wolves can eat mice, boars can eat roots, giant spiders can eat local giant insects, and so forth. And yes, a cold-blooded animal will only consume a quarter of its HP in food, normally.


7) All fliers consume 50% more supply than normal, except aquatic "fliers."

Notes: Swimming buoyancy comes from water density, while air-flying buoyancy comes from physical work.


8) All calculations are done in floating point until the total food consumption for a province is summated, at which point it is rounded up.

Notes: This means that 7 Black Hawks (5 hp flying animal) at cold scale 1 will consume 29 food:

5 {hp} * 0.5 {animal} * 1.5 {flying} * 1.1 {cold} = 4.125
4.125 * 7 {count} = 28.875
28.875 rounded up = 29 {final food consumption}


...and that's everything.


Implications: This would essentially require all food sources to be multiplied by 10 to 15 (wine bag gives 300, castles give 2000, a normal province supplies 1000 or so, a point of nature magic might supply 75.) It would make the game better balanced (additional realism often, though not always, has this effect) in terms of the advantages and drawbacks of light and heavy units, Hoburgs versus Ulmians, disciplined, armed and armored humans versus undisciplined and unarmed wolves that spend "camp time" out catching rabbits, and so forth. Remember, in the real world "cold-blooded" is not purely a disadvantage, so why should it be in Dominions?

Please feel free to add suggestions or criticisms!

Re: Thoughts on food
 

Interesting way to balance some units. It sounds good, as long as people don't have to think too much more about supplies than they do now.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I call dibs on Caelum.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

As it is, supply tends to make eating troops much less attractive to me. I prefer armies of vine ogres, undead, mechanical men, etc. And then there is the SC. Both supply and upkeep are interesting concepts, but, for me at least, they tend to narrow the range of game play.

I also prefer simplicity. There are already so many factors to keep track of. Making supply more complicated so I have to whip out a calculator before recruiting would be a pain. Often too much "realism" -- strange term in a fantasy game -- makes for a headache and less fun in game play.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I like the idea, though my major worry would be making national troops even more unattractive. If other parts of the game made troops more useful, I think this would be a great addition.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

Interesting. If it went like this, it'd be even more important than now to be able to get more details on how much supply consumption/availability there is ahead of time.

e.g. estimations of how much supply you'd have in an enemy border province or how much more would be needed by the troops in your recruitment queue.

Seasons might also make a difference in availability, although if it did a fortress should smooth things out a bit (via an organized system for storing food, rationing it etc).

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I do not like it. (God, when did I turn into a reactionary?)

This will make it much too hard to keep track on how much food an unit needs,
and this is very important when you move into a hostile province, get a warning
about supply, and want to move half your army out.

Furthermore, even without the effects of Gift of Health and domain, some giant
sized pretenders will be extremely hard to feed. And of course, as many people
noted, this will screw national troops even more...

Actually, in my current game, I am using national troops more than I have in
months (I am playing Abysia, and I just love their infantry, and the way their
mages sinergize with indy [cross]bowmen.) But I am struggling with supply,
even outside the former Ermor lands. I am lucky in having an ample nature
income, but I can guess what the situation would have been without it.

By the way, if you really want to go for extended realism, maybe we should make
it so that creatures with relevant survival do not take supply at all, as
opposed to not starving. Furthermore, pillaging should be able to generate
supplies as well. (Maybe it already does, what do I know, I am benevolant ruler)

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I like it too, and I do think that there are too many need-not-eaters around. For example: Why do Demons and Devils need not eat? What about gluttony? I think that supply should be much more of a concern than it is right now!

Re: Thoughts on food
 

How so? I don't understand. It's a different way of calculating things, but I don't see how it would make national troops relatively better or worse...

Excellent idea. Alternately, they could consume less (maybe 50% of normal) with a survival skill, so it would allow you to place double-size armies in (for example) a forest, but not infinite troops. Of course, consuming 50% as much is not really possible with Doms II's integer 1-food-per-troop system.

It does=) Unsure how effective, as I'm benevolent as well, except when I play Ermor, and they don't eat.

Anything that makes you stop eating your troops can't be entirely bad... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

...er, I was hoping I could make supply more.... realistic without being more of a concern. I don't want it to cause additional effort. However, I've separately been considering a "Chuckwagon" unit that is expensive to recruit and maintain but supplies some number of troops with food, so that Nature magic and Nature gems would not be utterly vital to a successful campaign with mundane troops. Unlike Vanheim's fey boar, though, it would have a tactical movement of 0, be mindless, not immortal, and incapable of attacking. Or maybe it could have a chef inside who attacks anything close enough with a frying pan:)

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I can't imagine anything that shouldn't be implemented when combined with the word "Chuckwagon". There should be Chuckwagons *everywhere*.

Pretender Bless Cherry.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

Well, it's beautiful and that's a good enough reason for me, although maybe not for JK since he'd have to work on it.

What does it change? 1) It gives C'tis a bonus. 2) It slightly reduces the value of beefy combatants relative to ones with special abilities. 3) It makes mounted troops less valuable. 4) other...

I think C'tis is fairly middle of the road and being a little better isn't needed but isn't harmful.

The potential effect on mounted troops bothers me. How much are cavalry used in MP presently?

Realism would demand that supplies be harvested in the Fall and pillaged or purchased from the locals the rest of the year but I imagine that's too much of a pain.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

Well, from what I can tell it would make supplies a much bigger deal, meaning summons that need not eat (and commanders which can't starve) even better.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

No, it shouldn't make supplies a "bigger deal", as it only change the way they are calculated. A random army of many assorted units (like the AI makes) should not be any more or less likely to starve in either system... but things like "X Terrain Survival" could be more effectively implemented, hoburgs and light infantry would not be quite as terrible, and other interesting things could be accomplished because it would allow finer control. It's sort of like adding a gas pedal to a car that previously just had an "on-off" switch - it doesn't make speed limits or roads or destinations more important, it just lets you interact with them more smoothly.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I do not really see what the gain of basing supply on HP's instead of size would be. As the system stands mounted humans allready eat twice that of unmounted humans, because of cavalry being size 3. Fliers are usually about one size class bigger than comparable troops without wings, thus they usually eat 50% to 100% more. Giants being size 4 and having 30 hp or so would have about the same supply ratio visavi humans that they allready do. My point with all this is that many of Saber Cherrys suggestions are allready pretty much covered by the current system. If desired some or all of the remaining points could be added on top of the current one, including the chuckwagons. The current system also have the advantage of allready being in place, which is a pretty awesome advantage. The current system, besides being familiar, also keeps supply numbers smaller and therefore more accessible. It also accomplishes much of what Cherry desires by virtue of its basic structure rather than it's exceptions, which is a virtue in a system.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

I humbly bow before this unimpeachable condensate of truth http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Re: Thoughts on food
 

Yeah, I am that way, I condensate truth all the time, more or less.

Btw: Glad to see you back.

Re: Thoughts on food
 

One thing I noticed about supplies, not sure if it is fixed yet: the supply items reduce the the supply requirement of the army carrying them, rather than increasing the amount of supplies available in the province.
This has one unfortunate consequence: an army in a low supply province, relying on supply items to survive, will be overly-starved should their supply usage exceed the amount available. This happens as the supply items seem to be ignored when the army is in a state of being under supplied.
For example: an army needing 101 supplies is given 4 bags of wine. Its supply usage drops to 1 supply. The army enters a zero supply province, and it begins to starve. It ought to suffer a single point of "starvation damage" (not sure how this is worked out exactly). However, it takes 100 points of starvation, because only the supply value of the province and the unadjusted supply requirement of the army (which doesn't count supply items) are taken into account.