Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinter
 

I started a Dominions 2 AAR in the german Paradox-Forum with the hope to recruit a few more german Fans http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
http://www.si-games.com/forums/showt...ge=1&pp=20

Now 2 guys downloaded the demo but were disappointed by the complete lack of a manual for the demo .

Nebukadnezar said that he played the demo for 4 days and read this forum but he didn't find much useful information and so to him Dominion 2 seems just like another 4-X game .
He just recruits troops and sends them to the other province but he does not know why they win or lose or what to do at all .

Therlun also said that there are huge interface weaknesses and there is no feedback why something happens and what kills troops and what not .

I can understand them and think that the dominions 2 Demo was really made poorly because instead making Dominions attractive for players it makes dominions look like a bad but complicated game .

You start the demo with no information at all , you can only play till turn 40 , the AIs only rush with troopmasses and you can only research up to lvl 4 .
So you can never try out a SC at all or a nice spell like Wrathful skies etc. .

So if you judge Dominions 2 only after the demo you think it is not a good game http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .

So for Dominions 3 the demo should rather be either like the dominion 1 demo again or maybe 2 nations and 2 of the 7 ? magic schools are completely play/researchable without a timelimit and 3 additional nations for the AI Opponents .
Then you could try out a few highlevel things but would still have to buy the full game .

I have finally a petition : May i send Therlun and Nebukadnezar the Dominions Manual ? They both play Paradox-Games so they are the ideal Dominion 2 potential buyers group . But especially (most) germans are always rather careful and curmudgeonly . Though they like to play hardcoregames like Dominions because of the very poorly done Dominions 2 Demo they don't buy Dominions 2 then because they can't get a detailed enough impression or even worse a wrong impression from it .

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

As a positive example i will mention Combat mission 2 - Berlin to Barbarossa .

They provide a 18 page long Word - Readme doc and a 10 page long how to win the tutorial pdf together with the demo .
And it is really urgently needed there as well http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Some time ago I asked in this forum if there is a need for tutorial. I got no comments. Are you sure Illwinter wants to waste effort to something no one is interested in? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif


How would your friends think about a pre-set game (Ulm, good scales, Oracle) on a small map (Clash of Titans), with some thematic messages in the first turn, special prophet and some general guidelines to using national troops and units? That's what I proposed, and what I have done to a point.

I am currently playing one turn of the game, sending messages to everyone (that will arrive on the turn *they* will play) and making a named Master Smith my prophet. In the messages I tell some story and what kind of an army should be recruited.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

The main problem is that they want to know everything .
They play normally mainly Victoria , for this game there is an excellent online manual available at http://victoria.nsen.ch/wiki/index.php/Main_Page

If something like this exists for Dominions 2 they would be very pleased . I don't know something like that though http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif .
Sunrays site is excellent but the most essential parts , the 30 pages basics from the manual are not covered .

They want to know exactly that though in order to judge how Dominions 2 is compared to e.g. Victoria or Hoi II .

They don't like Roleplaying too much so they would prefer facts instead of a guide what to do that they can make their own strats http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
If you want you can publish your helpfiles though maybe they like them also http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Endoperez, I believe you did not get many answers (this post got nominated for "Understatement of the year") because most readers of your post were already seasoned players and frequent forum users: the players least likely to benefit from your proposal. Getting the opinion of the players beginning playing Dominions would be best... but they may be daunted by the sheer scope of the game.

Something I considered setting up was a sort of "training" game, with beginning players and a more seasoned player, who would be able to give pointers and to explain odd things. It could either be a game against the AI (with a few players sharing the same nation, and thinking of strategies), or a small multiplayer game with a nation per player. But the problem is the same as for your own proposal: is there truly any interest? Good question, and I will thank anyone answering it. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Boron, a Wiki was started for Dominions, but very little was written in it. I do not know what was the intended scope of the Dominions Wiki though, but I suspect it is another case of "lack of interest". The Wiki is available here.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

I also have this problem. I have tried to teach several of my friends how to play dom2. And they just couldn't figure out why I liked it so much since it seemed to them a recruit unit attack recruit attack... stlye game. I even brought my friends over so I could teach them on my game.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

hiho, i'm the Therlun Boron spoke of.

and indeed, the demo did not make a very good impression on me (i even remembered playing it a loooong time ago, with the same result).

while i'm pretty sure not all of what i disliked is linked to missing game-knowledge, several things certainly are.
i dont think the manual alone will help much, though.

personally i dont need to see advanced game content (e.g. high level summons) to buy a game. i want to know what makes it a good game. and the demo completely fails here.

if it glances at PBEM-MP games-> great! but how should i know that before buying, if it is a real pain to arrange/start a MP session? (if it is possible with the demo at all)

if it has a very complex battle system with a distinctive balancing offering endless possibilities for army composition -> fantastic! but how shall i see that if in the most cases i dont even know if an attack/spell did any damage/use at all?

this and a hundred other little issues prevent me from liking dom2, simply because i dont understand/know them, and it is very difficult to find them out "by hand".

many of my problems with the game could probably be solved by playing a few sessions(full game) and the complete game documentation.
the point is, i cant be sure! perhaps the game is the confusing, fiddly mess the demo was (for me).

i dont know for sure how to solve the demo issue.
however i know it is pretty uninviting right now.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

I have tryed and asked the devs if I could include the original manual in the addenda to provide an electronic full (or at lesat with the top of knowledge) version that could be give to people an idea of the deep of the game ... but i got not a real answer .. i think that they prefer to keep the original manual just only in the official game.

I'm be able to get new adept (at the moment we are in 14 in my group playing dom2) making lan party and introducing the game to the new player in hot seat sessions.

Anyway as soon as we got permission form the devs I will be really happy to help in preparing a manual for beginner and one for advanced players!

good luck and good play
Liga

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Hmm. It was the demo that got me interested in the game. The 40 turn limit only acted as a hook. I quit playing the demo because the game really starts to take form at about that time. Sort of like reading a really good book and finding that only half of it's there.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

I remeber when I first played the demo, and recruited mages like crazy just to try the coolest sounding spell. Darn demo spell level cap, got me hooked.

I thought the game was impossible of course.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Hello, and welcome! The first point should be the easier to check: a look at the multiplayer discussions forums will show the current activity in the field of multiplayer games, and it *should* be possible to host a game with the demo (though that would require all players to use the demo to the best of my knowledge).

The second point is another matter: Dominions does provide a lot of information, but most of it is not made available directly. More specifically, you can replay your battles, and see what went correctly (and what didn't), but you will not get direct output saying that "the Fire Darts spell dealt major damage to the enemy army".

This can make for some interesting experimentation, but you should be able to find specific information you need on these boards, if you would rather not go into the lab yourself for some experiments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Liga how did you manage to teach 14 people how 2 play dom2. Every time I try I fail miserably and end making the person hate the game.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

As a newbie who played the demo in late December 2004 and bought the game shortly thereafter, the lack of a manual didn't bother me. The in-game information -- mouseovers and right-click -- told me much of what I wanted to know. I will say, however, that spell and item descriptions are often so vague as to be useless. Even now, before I try a new spell or item that requires a substantial investment, I do a search on this forum to see what it really does and whether people feel it is worth the cost. Of course, unless the manual's descriptions are expanded quite a bit -- which seems impractical -- I don't see a way around the problem. As the game reviews say, the game has a steep learning curve. That comes with its complexity and richness.

Therlun's comments just go to show that this game (or anything) isn't for everyone. Some people won't like it no matter how detailed the information is. There are some aspects that I don't like, but I see them as minor flaws in a very enjoyable game. Other won't get past the flaws.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinter
 

There are some good AAR's and tutorials written by players in various places on the web. Making those more visible would help players who have a hard time understanding what's going on, what to do, and what's fun about the game.

If that and the demo don't work, it's probably just not a style of game they'll like.

I was completely hooked by the Dominions I demo - my main anticipation buying the full game was wanting to get Black Plate infantry and Guardians for my Ulm game! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

PvK

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

I know there is pinned post called links with rich information, but what about making a pinned post called 'HOWTO: Easy steps for newbies' or 'HOWTO: The Guide for newbies'. In this post it could contains how to do the diffrent things, but in a very simple and easy explained way and short.
It could be something like 'HOWTO: make your mage only cast spells in combat', then people can click that link and a short briefly description tells them to click on the 'Army Setup' button and click where it says 'Click here to set battle orders'.
That could safe many troubles http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/smile.gif

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Actually this has little to do with illwinter and more to do with shrapnel. Shrapnel considers the full manual a selling point of the game, a reason not to go with a pirated version, which is why the manual is not available as a pdf. Whether or not this has had an adverse or positive effect on the sales is all but impossible to know, but according to shrapnel their experience has been that a printed manual, and lack of electronic one, is a good selling point. Dom 1 used a pdf manual, which was a little more comprehensive than the dom2 manual, of course that lead to some criticism as well.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

Was not my intention go into the commercial strategy of both Illwinter abnd Shrapnelgames ... anyway I think that without an "official" authorization both form IW and SG I would not
start any work with part of the official manual in it!

... and about how I have teached 14 people the game ... after a brief introduction to the game I have made them play a Lan game with me as a 'Living manual' ...

good play to all!
Liga

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

I also found the demo something that was pretty lacking. The first time I played it I was totally unimpressed. None of the games interesting features were really brought out to me. It was only later when I friend brought me back to it and pointed out a few things that gameplay became very interesting. In turn I tried to also interest some of my friends but they all turned away because of the demo :/

As for the manual, liga, I found the answer to this when I posted a thread some time ago about why dom2 was only available on a physical CD and had to be mailed, as opposed to downloaded. A Shrapnel Games person posted and said that they felt it was thier most effective way to combat piracy. Whether this is true or not - given that other small download-only houses (like galciv, etc) seem to be doing ok - I dont know.

I will say this tho. By the time the actual physical manual actually arrived at my place I didnt even need it anymore. Only look at it one or two times a month.

Re: Dominions 2 Demo - Manual petition to Illwinte
 

What were those interesting features? SCs? Better items? High-level summons? Clamming?

I am slowly putting together a tutorial scenario, and it would help if I knew what I should introduce in it.