A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Ladies and Gentlemen,

I hope you will enjoy this new national mod, Oglala Sioux, which I have finally finished, or at least have finished enough to allow it to be tested, and perhaps enjoyed, by you.

I would be very grateful for your feedback and constructive criticism.

*PLEASE* read the readme.doc before asking questions and/or flaming!

Liga has already been kind enough to host the mod on his or her (?) site here
and I would be very thankful if Arryn could host it on her site as well and if the folks at Illwinter would include it on their site as well.

This has not yet been tested in MP, as far as I know, and would like this very much. If anywould would like to play "with" or "against" this nation, I would be grateful!

Thank you very much in advance for your feedback.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Heh, sent some for your e-mail. I had nice time testing it over the weekend, and it took a while to write those comments down. Congrats!

BTW, the Treant graphics (that supposedly are same in your and in the Forest of Loren mod) has empty eyes and mouth, and is partly floating in air. I think some shadow should be added under its roots, and it's eyes/mouth either made (0,0,1) black that DomII shows as black or filled with glow of insanity and thirst for whatever hulking beasts thirst.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Endoperez could you take a screenshot how it looks and pinpoint where specific where the shadow are missing.

It's with purpose that the threant have empty eyes and empty mouth.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Attached picture that hopefully helps. I might have overdrawn some of the old shadow, the filtering kills off that kind of precision.
Ok, then it's just fine.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Hmmm....My fault, I misinformed/misunderstood Tinkthank about some colour and transparent issues.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

I've only browsed it so far, but it looks like a lot of interesting work here!

PvK

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Hey, thanks for these replies so far. Only 15 Downloads, that is a bit dissapointing -- should I be making more noise about it somewhere, somehow? Or is it just unappealing to many people for a particular reason?

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

The download figure does not count the downloads from Liga's site (linked in your first post) and Arryn's, so you shouldn't use these figures to see how many people are interested.

I like the feel of your mod myself, but I am almost only playing in multiplayer, where new nations cannot be used. Hmm, perhaps it is time for another "only modded nations" game...

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

THanks for that reply, you are right.

I would love to have this nation tested in MP.

One of my strong motivations for making this mod was to have one which would be playable in MP.
By that I mean this: My feeling is that most modded nations out there are truly wonderful in every respect, including creativity and graphics, feeling and everything.
However....
Most of these are in my opinion "unbalanced" in the sense that they are way too powerful. I can truly understand that too, since as the "creator" of a nation you feel like they are your children and should prosper. But the mods I like the most seem unfitting for MP play to me, since they have few if little weaknesses, and all of the units seem to be elite.
I really tried here to make a nation which could be competitive under the right circumstances, but which would not be a steamroller. (While testing, I made sure I got trounced by impossible AIs at least once or twice.)

Anyhow, thanks -- your feedback is very welcome.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Hi,

I took a quick look today. Seems fun. On the balance side I'm not sure yet. You have lots of cheap light cavalry. This is a bit hard for me to evaluate as light cav is overpriced (balance-wise) in the first place.

My main concern was the Crazy Horse Riders. Ethereal, stealthy aweful and sacred makes them my primary pick. But on the other hand they are almost without armor and capital only. So it's probably OK. (Edit: I should look at vanir instead)

Mages seems OK at a first glance. No glaring imbalancies.

Haven't used the summons yet, just summoned one each.


Bravo!

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Hey thanks very much.

- No one buys light cav. I wanted to make a nation which relies on them. They are cheap because horses are cheap and because I want to encourage purchasing national troops instead of summons. If there is a consensus, I will be happy to increase costs of all troops across the board. But...
- They die fast to anything with a bow and some armor. I am afraid of making them too expensive because then no-one will buy national troops.
- Yes, the crazy-horse rider is a fine unit. Compared to the D. Sidhe, however, he is pretty weak (and he costs twice as much); compared to the Van, he is pretty weak
(and is capital-only); compared to a bunch of units, he is still pretty weak, simply because he goes down fast if hit. Without awe and etherealness, he is a sitting duck which no-one would purchase for 70 gold. In the context of Oglala, they are obviously still the best units, but pricey -- I rarely had much money left over for them. I tried to make it a toss-up as to which units to buy -- I end up getting a mix of a lot, although I rely on Hunters and Raiders the most. May have to make them more expensive.
- My primary concern is the summons. They may be a bit too butch. But since I play mostly on magic-poor worlds (<40) and because I need a lot of gems for forging (20% more), I find it ok so far, but still am unsure.

Thank you for the feedback so far, and of course am keen for more!

Any chance of you adding it to the mods available on your site?

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

I can add it this weekend.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

I am in love with this mod. I have not had a chance to try it out, but I am about to play a one on one against the Forestfull O'Elves mod.

As I said, I have not tested it, but I believe it may be overpowered. Nothing I can point a finger to, just a vibe I am getting.

By the way, are you planning to change the pictures for the shamen? Something with more feathers and less pyjamas? http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Unfortunately there aren't many suitable graphics in the game. Maybe some recolored machakans, but that is hard as neither he or I have any artistic skills...

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

kisses!
I am not feeling the overpoweredness yet; the units look good, but it will take skill with a stealth nation to play them well -- they die to anything very quickly. I have to play them veeery differently to be competetive, like reyling on preaching and hit-n-run. Like I say, my worries are the summons being to powerful. As soon as your opponents get decent blood or death summons, however, you need to do some fancy footwork.
I would love to do more feathers and less pyjamas, but alas, I am a ninny with the pixelbrush. As I have written in the readme (PLEASE read it!), I am accepting graphical donations!
THanks for your feedback, looking forward to your testing results.
I think they should get their butt whipped by Forest of Loren. I bet a case of beer.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Very intriguing.

I'd worry about a charge of Black Templars, but summons might help hold them off; there's enough magic for some low-level summons in addition to the nationals. The sacred Crazy Horse Riders seem very interesting with a heavy air blessing to help them win archery duels, and are mobile enough that bringing them to the front shouldn't take too long. Hm.

Random thought: if you want to -force- the Crazy Horse-riding commanders to not wear armor (as the description suggests they won't) you could take away the body slot. That'd affect balance, of course.

Random note: One of the heroes (the CHR hero) still has a T'ien Chi name, at least in the version attached to the first post in this thread.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Nice mod also Tinktank http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif . Some very interesting ideas and your readme seems also like a lot of work http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .
Maybe I even learn a bit about indian history . I have to admit that i don't know much about it , only a bit from playing EU 2 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Hey thanks for the feedback.

1. Templars are overkill. Any Ulmish Black Plate makes mincemeat of the naked horsies. Ulm is my enemy.
2. Interesting idea.... I'll consider it, thanks!

Good point! Changed.... Will update when I can... thanks!

Thanks! Yeah, it was a lot of work -- hope you enjoy!

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

OK I hope to bring out a version 1.01 in a few days with some minor nerfings to a few units and 1 bugfix (TC name still in on one unit -- thanks Taqwus!).

One question: I want to do that suggestion you made, Taqwus, and remove the body slot from the Holy Chieftan. (Considered long and hard on that, since Black Elk makes specific reference to "Ghost Shirts" that he manufactured (about 3 dozen in all) for his own use as well as for distributing to friends, painted with holy paint and designed from a later minor vision -- but I think that these could be considered Shrouds of the Saint, or maybe even Shadow Robes, and Holy Chieftans dont need either of these, so I think you are right.)

But how do I do that? (How can I remove a body slot from them?)
Thank you.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

#itemslots 14598

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

I'll happy to try and host it as soon as you release

good play
Liga

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Thank you very much.

I would like to add this update to Version 1.01 here, and would happy if you and others could host it.

I would like to thank everyone for their feedback so far. It was very helpful for generating this update.

This update mostly has NERFS -- I hope this meets with your approval.

Here are the changes:

-------
BALANCE
-------
NERFS:
- With only 1 exception, increased Encumberance of ALL recruitable units and all heroes by 1-3
- Reduced protection of Crazy Horse rider by 1
- Reduced Feathered Leather to Prot 4, retained Enc 1
- Holy Chieftan must ride naked (or with his Ghost Shirt): he no longer has a body slot
- Reduced HP of Oglala Raider by 2, reduced both Strength and Attack Rating of Oglala Raider by 1
- Decreased Defense of mounted Hunter and Foot-hunter by 1
- Increased Resource Cost of Oglala Warrior and Warrior Chieftan


BONI:
- Increased Strength of Oglala Warrior by 1, he now wears Ornamental Armor
- Holy Chieftain now has 1 natural Protection
- Warrior Chieftan, Elucidator of Traditions and the Master of Dream-Visions now have Charmed Feathered Leather, costs more resources
- Changed Magic Warpaint to Prot 5
- Chieftan now wears Ornamental Leather, costs more resources


OTHER:
- Changed Ornamental Leather to Prot 6, Enc 2
- Holy Chieftain and Crazy Horse Rider now have Magic Warpaint


------
MISC
------

- Added new authentic names, deleted a few embellished names; authentic name count now

approx. 200
- Crazy Horse, the Hero, no longer has a Tien Chi name


-------
NOTES
-------

- Still waiting for the ability to mod (negative) Fort Defense bonuses (penalties)
- Still waiting for the ability to mod patrol bonuses
- Hoping for the ability to mod awe ability with negative modifiers (weak awe: -2)

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

it is on my web site now!

thank you
Liga

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Just one question, what would the consequences of weak awe be?

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Well, awe+1 means that a unit with Morale of 10 (or 11? I forget) has a 50% chance of overcoming an awe check, while an awe of +10 means that you need a morale of 20 to do the same. Although it would be nice to know how this is scaled for Morales greater or lesser than this median (I mean: If you have a Morale of 13, do you have a 70% chance of hitting an Awe+1 creature, or a 55%, or a 95%?), I do not.

So I would have hoped that an Awe -2 would mean that a creature with a Morale of 9 has a 50% chance of striking successfully.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Ahhh! Wouldn't a better ability apply like 'Hatred'? Maybe not...

Update
 

Sorry, in the version 1.1 which I had posted above there is a mistake: I had used the #itemslots suggestion, unknowing that #mounted does not override the foot slot.

This version 1.11 attached here is identical to the one posted in 1.1 above, but removes the falsely added foot slot from Holy Chieftan. (Now the Holy Chieftan has no body slot and, as it should be, also no foot slot.)

Sorry.
And sorry, Liga -- could you switch again?

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

IIRC awe works like most other opposing checks in Dom2:
X + 2d6(oe) vs Y + 2d6(oe), where X and Y are a mix of stats and various boni/penalties etc.

In your example (awe+1 vs moral 13):
X = 11 and Y = 13

Look in this thread. Look-up "-2" in Endoperez' chart. The chance of overcomming the awe is ~70%.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Version 1.11 is up on my site too.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Thanks very much!

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

OK -- any feedback on the balance? Do you folks still feel it is overpowered? What about the summons?
Thanks much

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

No balance feedback yet, but the non-mounted Oglala Hunter needs ambidextrity (I suggest 3).

And by the way, don't you think forest survival would be natural for Hunters? If they have to sneak around deep behind enemy lines, and they have hunting bows and hunting knives, being able to hunt and travel efficiently through forests seems natural.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

First off, Id like to commend your wisdom in attempting to make a more balanced nation to replace T'ien Ch'i. After playing a bit, your mod looks to be better than T'ien Ch'i, but certainly not superior to any of the powerful nations. Good job http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
However, I have only tested it in SP... which means I cant really say how it would stack up in MP. Anyways, here are my thoughts:

• The troops make very effective patrollers because of their cheap cost for high movement. If you patrol with your starting troops, you can go up to 200 tax at the beginning and usually clear up the unrest!
  
  All the troops are inexpensive for their stats: a 12 attack, 14 defense, 11 morale and 11 MR unit for only 10 gold! Yes, I know they have no armor, but this is taken into account in the resource cost, which allows you to get extra pretender points with sloth. Also, even with no bless effect, the Crazy Horse Riders only need about 10 to take level 9 indies with no losses! Luckily, they are capitol only. These troop strengths should be more or less (hopefully) balanced out by the abysmal artifact forging and lack of powerful specialized magic.
  
  I found vine ogres to be highly superior to the treants... The treant has only slightly higher stats, but has encumbrance and fire susceptability. For 4x the cost (8x with a ivy crown), they are not even close to worth it. Even the holy golem is superior 1 to 1 for a cheaper price. The other 3 summons look fairly nice and well balanced, though.
  
  Why the 6 starting gem income? With all the low level paths, you can already search far better than other nations, so will have higher gem income anyway.

This is a fun nation to play. I would like to try it out in MP some time, if I can http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

I won't put words in his mouth, but since you cannot mod sites, sometimes it is hard to get exactly the type and number of gems you want AND all the capitol-only troops. It is probably possible to make it 5-gem income, but maybe not.

From my playing, I've noticed that Hunters (mounted) utterly destroy everything. Compared to shortbows, their bows have more damage, more precision, more range, more arrows, and kill anything they even scratch (strong poison does 15 damage on average). And they have the highest armor. They seem like the best unit... and, well, overpowered for the price. They annihilate anything that is not poison immune, even units with 18 protection and tower shields (I got in some fights with Living Ermor).

Furthermore, because all the units have lots of strat moves and negligible resource cost... it feels wierd. You can do things like not build anything for 2 turns, then suddenly build 25 cavalry and get them to the front, thus saving 2 turns of upkeep compared to nations with resource costs. Resources are supposed to cover labor as well as materials, and raising / training horses is fairly labor-intensive.

So, my suggestions...

1) The Hunting Bow is just vastly superior to all other bows. I think it should either get weak poison (5 damage), lower stats, or an increased (gold and resource) cost. Curently, I cannot justify building any unit without a hunting bow, especially because those units ALSO have the most armor AND shields.

2) The hunters on foot... I never built them. I suppose I could, but their costs are so close to mounted units that I can't find a good reason to do so. They need a compelling reason to be built (whether that means making them better or all the other units worse). And, as I noted before, they need ambidextrity 3 or 4 to use their current weapons correctly. However... You can't give a unit a spear, knife, and shield! That requires 3 hands http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

3) The Crazy Horse Riders are supposed to be the best at melee, but really, with the high attack and defense values, all the mounted units are good at melee... the Crazy Horse Riders don't seem to have any skills that make them better at melee than other units. Why not give them Berserk +2? Then if a player was using them as a ranged unit (violating the description), and they got hurt, they would charge into melee combat as you would expect http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

4) I find the Holy Chieftains extremely expensive. Holy 4 is nice, and rare. But at 290 gold, you buy one for your prophet, and never again. In fact, I waited until turn 8 to buy a prophet, because those things are so expensive. Also, at holy 4, he needs higher magic resistance (say, 16). In fact, several of your other priests and mages also (IMO) need higher magic resistance, considering that indy holy-2 priests get 14 mr (+4 bonus) and your lowest-level warriors already get 11 mr.

5) Giving humans a base mr 11 is interesting, and you justify it with "Magical Talismans" and such. But that's just in the description. None of the units wear helmets, so why not give them a 'helmet' called "Talisman" or "Pouch of Ancestral Bones" or whatever, to justify the increased magic resistance?

6) Some of your units are drawn holding falchions and listed as using spears. I understand that graphic manipulations are a complete pain... but I suggest you change one or the other. If any Native American tribes whatsoever used any sort of blade-like weapon, that would be a quick and easy fix, even if the Oglala Sioux didn't. IMO, it's OK for a nation to not exactly reflect a specific history or mythology. No Sioux tribe was ever able to summon longdead warriors, for example.

7) You might want to mod the Jade Emperor into some Sioux-specific deity, since it is only available to Tien Chi. It seems wierd to pick the Jade Emperor to lead them, with his obvious oriental background.

8) Warrior Chieftain is 50% more expensive, and VASTLY superior to the Oglala Raider (leader), since they both have stealth. I would never build a raider leader (at the current price, leadership, and abilities). Non-leader raiders seem kind of expensive too... making them cheaper and decreasing the siege bonus to 2 would make them more desireable, IMO.


Anyway, those are my thoughts right now, though I have not yet played a full game. Keep up the good work, and remember, everyone loves graphics http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif It's hard, but a few hours in GIMP can take away shields from the units listed as not using shields, make units in full scale mail look like they're wearing feathered (or leather, or warpaint) armor, and replace steel helmets with hair or feathers. If you go for it, remember that details are not too important... you might be working on a 800x600 version of a unit (I suggest blowing icons up to around size before modifying them), but once people see it on the screen, it will only be 64x64 pixels and little errors will be unnoticable. Of course, it's up to you http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Hey thanks so much for these comments!

Tauren:
- Treants inferior to Ogres. Yes. Endoperez said this to me as well, and I answered "Well, every low-level summons is inferior to Ogres in terms of gem cost", but I think that is a lame thing to say now. I think I should make them tramplers as well. Or decrease the gem cost? Thanks for your feedback.
- Troops inexpensive as a mounted unit: Yes, that is the "flavor" and raison d'etre of this mod. In my tests, they got spanked by vanilla Ulm and Marignon AI, so I am not worried yet, and had real problems with Abysia and Machaka too. Have you really been able to make a lot of Crazy Horse Riders?
- 6 starting gem income: Unintentional, but unavoidable. It is a toss-up between gem income and capital-only troop-sites.

Cherry: (Starting with the things on which our opinion differs)
- Hm, Cherry, we have COMPELTELY different playing styles. I found myself recruiting Holy Chieftains whenever I could. It is not just Holy 4, *he is the only holy-4 STEALTHY unit in the game*. I do not want to make him cheaper, I want to make him even more expensive -- I dont want dozens of these guys running round. These are the best stealthy preachers in the game, and with a few Crazy Horse bodyguards then can even survive getting caught by patrollers. I personally like the price for my playstyle, or find them too expensive. (Consider Lizard Lord guy for 280.)
- Raiders have stealth 10, Warrior Chieftains stealth 0. Raiders are the only commander with higher stealth (besides the Holy Chieftain at 5), they are "designed" to lead raiders in small stealth parties. But perhaps I should make the Warrior Chieftain more expensive (rather than the Raider less so)? As it is now, my Raiders survive patrolling parties MUCH better than my War-Chiefs set to stealthy preaching.
- Crazy Horse Riders *DO* have etheralness, but ok, I suppose that is not enough. I did NOT want to give them any features which could be got by a blessing (such as Beserk), since these are the only holy units, as I wrote in my Readme, hence the lack thereof. But I see your point. Would you also accept slightly cheaper (65) or 1 better attack and/or both? Otherwise, yes, I could give them beserk-2, if this does make sense.

(Things I agree with:)
- Graphics -- yes!! I wish....
- Edit the Jade Emperor .... yeah, of course! Doh! Good idea, thanks!
- Hunting Bow Nerf -- ok. I never really bought so many Hunters, because the times I tested I never really had the Resources for them. I think I will increase the Resources on the hunter too.
- Foot Hunter Sucking: Ok. I didnt make many of these guys either. Cheaper ok? Ambidexterity... ok.
- I cannot find a way to add Magic Resistance to items, hence I dispatched with any Items which did such. Am I missing something?

THANKS TONS!!!

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

The reason I compared them to vine ogres is that the 2N2H guys who summon them can also make vine ogres really easily. I think if you made the treants more like Dark Vines, that is, gave them like 126 HP, they would be usefull tankers for your archers.
Well, with 200 tax at the beggining, you can build 3-4 per turn. I took a F9A5 Phoenix, and wow, with the starting troops as backup, they could rip level 9 indies to pieces.



Here's some more thoughts:

• I cant say I found much use for the Elucidator of Traditions. I would prefer the Warrior Chieftan in almost every aspect. Everyone else, however, I found had a specific use. Well done!
  
  Some of the troops have a base protection of 1. Why? Theyre just humans, arent they?
  
  The Master of Dream-Visions has no forge penalty. With a fully random pick, you can really have him forge most of what you need, making the nation not really all that bad at forging.

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

As an aside, tinkthank, if you can give me the stats for your commanders, I'll 'run them through' the mill I've got going...

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

Yeah, I'm starting to think that too http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That's ok, if there is a playing style that uses the units I would not consider using, then they are probably fine!

Hmmm, yeah. Holy-2, sacred, stealthy, mounted, leadership 50, encumbrance 3, precision 12, 2 attacks and a longbow, Standard +8 make them similar to a Centaur Hierophant (80g).

I'm not saying they're too good or not good enough; they seem about right. Rather, they are described as being "THE melee unit" but have nothing specifically melee about them. Why not give them a shortbow instead of a longbow, or precision 10, or remove the bow altogether and give them a special spear with 2x attacks (and only 2 damage, perhaps), or give Raiders 13 attack so that Crazies at least have a better melee attack than other units? Right now, I would strongly consider keeping Crazies at the rear and giving them a fire-9 bless (for awesome flaming longbow arrows), virtually immune to harm because they are really far away from the enemy and ethereal. But that sort of defeats their designed purpose, right?

Try buying a bunch... I was considering taking a screenshot of a huge Living Ermorian army advancing, right at the instant the green poison drop appeared on their icons, but decided not to. Those guys are - wow http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

And 2 weapons + shield is a no-no http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif You could add ambidextrity and remove shield, or just remove the dagger and let them keep the shield (and maybe make the spear poisoned).

Yeah... you can't add MR to items. Basically, I was making a purely aesthetic suggestion, where you make a helmet:

#newweapon 250
#name "Talisman of Ancestral Spirits and Puppy Tails"
#type 4
#prot 0
#def 0
#enc 0
#end

...and give it to all the units. That way, even though you can't tell by right-clicking on the item name, the units seem less like super-humans with MR 11 and more like humans with MR 10 that are getting +1 MR from a magical talisman. Technically, nothing changes, since you hard-code 11 MR into the units either way (or 12 for units with magic war paint). But it's just a suggestion that has nothing to do with balance or gameplay.


You're welcome =)

Re: A New Mod: Oglala Sioux
 

OK great stuff here, thank you.

Tauren: Yes, you are right. I dont want to go overboard, but I have decreased the cost of Treants by one and increased their hitpoints by 14. Maybe that is not enough, I will have to test more, I just dont want them too "über".
I have used an Elucidator often as a cheap preacher; he is much better in boosting Dominion than the Warrior Chieftan. (Now that the WC costs more (see below), I think it is a good deal too.) Maybe it is a matter of style; I use him a lot because I play the Preacher in a lot of games and try to keep my candles up higher than anyone else.
The Master of Dream Penalties cannot forge any decent Elemental equipment whatsoever, and he will need proper picks to be able to forge anything non-astral and non-nature, and (especially for the Nature) he is expensive for that. I agree that I do use him when I can, but I often cannot, so I dont really see a need for changing here, but I will change in the future, if need be, surely. I noticed I had to forge most with Mot4Ds and MM.

Scott, what stats do you need? You can grab everything you need from the .dm file, right?

OK, Cherry, what you are saying makes sense, I took another look and tried to do some testing, but was unable to complete due to my need to test YOUR mod ... ;-)

But here is what I have done so far:
- Increased price of Warrior Chieftan by 5
- Decreased Hunting Bow to Weak Poison -- I hope this will do
- Increased recources of Hunter by 2
- Made the foothunter only 15 gold, he lost his spear
- As indicated above, improved the Treant cost/HP ratio

Cherry, a fire blessing will NOT give you flaming arrows, it ONLY works on melee weapons.
I have not yet figured out what to do, but will probably go with your suggestion in giving Crazies shortbows, or limit their ammo supply more (to 8 or so).

THANKS VERY MUCH!!!