Anti-SC commanders
 

I'm highly interesting in inexpensive Anti-SC commanders, like commanders with visions foe and eye of aiming, or bow of botulf, eye of aiming, etc. Or less expensive mages that can kill/injure enemy SCs.

Which ones do you guys think are most effective?

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

I never use Eyes or Hearts. I can't stand mutilating my own commanders...

However, in a recent game I played, I was very careful to keep my good commanders away from an indy province that had a totem-shield-equpped leader. In the same game, as Vanheim, I lost my heroic strength national hero einhere (30 strength when berserked) to Decay.

I never seem to have any luck against SCs with bows or whatever (not accurate enough), although I have taken them out with my own SCs equipped with artifacts. Paralyze sometimes works, though, and is pretty easy to cast.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

I once tried a squad of 7 caelian scouts equipped with ethereal crossbows. The 7 where spread out between ordinary archers for protection and accompanied bigger armies, usually with a mage casting wind guide. I did not notice that they presented a great help. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif (The scouts were merely scripted to fire without any specific target.) Maybe I did something wrong or just had bad luck. Maybe I should have made a large squad, but it is too much trouble to create and move them around (since they are all commanders).

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

You should have used "fire at large enemy monsters" ..

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

I once tried (in MP) giving emerald guard commanders eye of aiming and ethereal x-bow.
Scripted them to fire closest.

They did offer some help against banelord SCs and ghost riders commanders.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Scout(s) with Herald Lance set to cast spells can make wonders if you're facing Bane lords and other undead thugs.
Or with Phoenix rod, if you're playing Marignon or get fire mages from elsewhere.

If you put Boots of Quickness on them - double the fun.

Shambler chiefs are good carriers for such items - cheap and tough enough to survive a random arrow or lightning bolt.

Blindness is also good and castable by a lowly fire mage.
And the spellcasting AI will actually go for it it when facing fire-resistant foe, which is nice.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

I havent tried it, but isnt there a shield that blinds anyone that strikes the wielder? Just put that on an indy commander and set him out as bait for the SC, way in front of your troops or something.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Eye shield, nature (2?) const (4?)

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Const 2, according to Zen's quick reference. I've found that several indy commanders each with one of those is a cost-effective way of spanking most SCs. It doesn't work all the time, but that's fine with me -- it's the threat that counts.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Eye Shields work wonders on assassines as well. As long as it survives 2 hits, that is...

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

One item I've found very useful to deal with seemingly unkillable SCs, if you can't afford the "Drain Life" standards, is the Staff of Corrosion. Once I had 7 mundane commanders with these toys annihilate an annoying Air Queen who had luck, high MR, and full immunity to everything - except there's no immunity to acid. I think she died before the 5th battle round.

There was a bit of discussion about these staves on the French forum some months ago.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

I couldn't get a unit regenerate enough to take mages with decay. Is DECAY a good way to kill SCs, or can they get enough regen to deny it and how?

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

I think decay as an mr check usually? I think KO said that for banefire a high enough regen may work as after some set number of rounds (I think 50) the effect stops.

The staff of corrosion is a cool idea... although thats fire and water, right?

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Strange that Acid isn't used more against SCs, then. That should help Tien Chi, and Tien Chi is considered very weak.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Few acid-casting mages have the mobility of SCs, and without any prec 100 acid spells those mages are casting a world of hurt to their own meat shields.

Anyway, from what I've seen, Celestial Masters (especially S&A's) are really potent SC killers - with fire, water, air and astral it's nearly impossible to build anything totally impervious to them. Using item-boosted mages later in the game to bring the fear of True God into heathens isn't what makes TC weak - the crappy troops, low initial paths on mages, lack of multipath synergy in spells, the common suckiness of cavalry units in general, vulnerability to Mind Duel and forced turmoil in themes is. Hm, did I remember enough?

Still having fond memories of TC, though.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

A few cheap anti-SC tools I've used effectively include vine arrows, ethereal crossbows, and bane blades.

Imperial TC troops can be ok if used in certain ways. I'd like to see them cheaper though. TC overall would be better if cavalry were more effective.

PvK

P.S. I don't think decay weapons have a MR check but I would think the spell Decay would, but don't know.

Re: Anti-SC commanders
 

Maybe it was just a freak lucky incident, but I had a randomly equipped (scavenged items from dead mages) bane (yes, bane, not bane lord) that made a truly heroic battle performance.

My castle was being invaded by an army of about 100 mechanical men, an archangel buffed with items and powering to F7, a harbinger Wrather, two fully equipped natarajas and a fully equipped golem. My forces were the bane (charcoal shield, rune smasher, copper plate, burning pearl and something else), a scorpion king of E8/F7, some 300 statues (most wiped out by wrathful skies) and ~200 banefire archers (also wrathed).

When all was said and done, that lowly bane almost single-handedly whacked both natarajas and the golem and did in his share of mech men too. The SK kept petrifying one of the natarajas and the golem concentrated on a few surviving statues and the bane just picked off the SCs one by one in individual combat until the enemy routed. I was left picking my jaw off the floor and so was Soapyfrog who had expected his army to perform better. There is still a question of whether the natarajas actually died or routed, as our battle replays seemed to be different.

Upshot: Use petrification if you can, because even a successful MR roll results in several turns of paralysis, allowing your weak thugs to stomp on the SCs without fear of retaliation. Just how feasible this is for most nations I haven't really looked into.

Edi