But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Probably this is an old question ... anyway ... now I have played quite a lot game (both MP and SP) and have the strong impression that SCs drive up most of the game's beauty ...

is quite simple, once you have learnt, equipping and scripting a SCs ... is much more difficult (and strategy requiring) to build up and script a well working army ...

in MP the games soon become a races toward the uniques SC ... and is not funny at all spent several turn try to prepare and script a nice army and look it killed by a "normal" easy scripted VQ.

Probably after most than 1 year of play this is the only thing that really could make me be annoyed by this fantastic game ... is it only my impression ?

Of course you could say me that SC could be killed ... but you need to know the SC you are fighting and prepare the right army and that is much more time and resources consuming that building up the SC.

good play
Liga

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Some people like SCs, others do not. I'd say it is a matter of opinion. For me, there would be a nice balance of SC and regular armies.

I agree the unmodded game with defaults settings does seem to have a "race for the SCs" feel to it. However there are settings and mods that adress this.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Although this topic may very well belong to the dead horse species, it can always be fun to beat upon those for awhile.

I belong to the party of people who dislike having large numbers of nicely mixed armies decimated by a few very powerful beings, both thematically, in terms of game balance, and in terms of "fun" (which is primary for me in judging any aspect of D2). I like the fact that this option is open as a possibility in Dom2, but think this option is a bit too "strong", both thematically and in terms of balance.

I would wish that the ability for doing so (making SCs) could be toned down, made more difficult, or at least have an option in a Game Setup type of screen which would allow for this to be up to the game creator (sketched in some of my Wishlist posts).

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I can't really say. I'm a single player dom2 user, so it doesn't bother me. I wouldn't have any Idea how a VQ in MP would be like.
Isn't there a simple anti-VQ strategy if you know your opponent uses VQ?

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I think toning life drain down a bit, (which I believe I heard was in the books for Dom III http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif) would really help. SCs might still be possible, but quite a bit more difficult to get/use...

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I'd rather see SC's built by experience AND items rather than just items. It would require a more well developed leveling system though.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Yes .. probably life drain need to be powered down ... but also I feel in great agreement with tinkthank about the fact that SC are also a lot unthematic ... a player making a VQ as her/his best SC could be of any theme/race ... and also all the air nations go to Air Queen and all the Blood Nations go for Ice Devils ...

It could be that the Ascension Wars are to be win by the God that is able to get soon the favors of this powerful beings, but I don't like that too much and anyway since my old years of Dungeons and Dragons I hate the powerful 20 level fighter who can survive killing thousands of goblins

... probably what is missing (in my opinion, of course) is a system making really easier to hurt someone if it is totally surrounded or something like that ...

So also a SC could have hard problem against 100 heavy infantry

anyway, good play to all
Liga

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I think that hugh armies should be able to kill even the most potent SCs.
I think the game should enforce a set of penalties/rules to make sure that no solo unit can destroy armies made of many hundreds of units.

It gives a good rpg feel to "nurture" a SC and see how potent it becomes. But I think if most powerful units will have major impact in battlefields but are not a one unit army that rpg feel will stay without the SCs problems.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I have to admit that i like battles between armies and mages more . When i play SP i always take Impossible AIs and try to beat them with national troops only . Normally i fail but it is fun http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif .

Unfortunately vs. a VQ any national army expect fliers ( mainly Caelum ) is obsolete on turn 8-10 already .
Vs. a VQ there are many counters though like earlygame dust to dust etc. .

But vs. a well equipped AQ and the like there aren't many counters .

The Problem with SCs is that they are too cheap . An AQ costs 50 Airgems + about 50 gems for Equipment , about the same for most other SCs . If you invest those 100 gems into troops those troops can't beat the SC . 30 Devils are e.g. 210 Blood thats of similiar value as 100 gems but even they can't beat a well equipped AQ/ID/AD... .
Getting the right Mages to beat the SC is also difficult and some Nations lack them even completely .

If the SCs would cost 200-400% more then they wouldn't be such an issue maybe . An AQ for 200 Airgems e.g. would still be summoned and be great but then a bit more in line with the costs of other stuff .

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I've played any number of games where you conquer territory then raise taxes to build more armies to conquer more territory. For me, SCs and powerful magic are the key selling points for Dom2.

And when I've driven SCs, I've never felt completely comfident in their survival (against other players). There's always risk.

The reason people race for the unique SCs isn't that you lose the game without them (I've won games with national armies and national mages). It's that they're unique.

P.S. How often do VQs actually get played these days?

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I don't know ...anyway scripting invulnearbility, attack and than 3 x life drain is very difficult to stop for most of the nations

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Prepare the right army?
Well the following setup below works for 95% of SC's.

3 or more priests, scouts or commanders with 2 experience stars... give them eye of aiming and one of the special bows like the one which does feeblemind, blind or 999 damage. Then give them some thick buffers such as vine ogres, living statues, mechanical men, or maybe some devils. The air queens are always one of the toughest where another strategy is most likely needed.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

>I don't know ...anyway scripting invulnearbility, attack and than 3 x life drain is very difficult to stop for most of the nations

Surely not. I mean, it obviously depends on the state of the game and the level of magic research, access to magic schools etc, but there are any number of ways to hit that VQ.

My problem in playing against the VQ - which I haven't had to do for a while - is not that she's so tough, but that the ***** keeps coming back...

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

So do my ex....but you don't hear me complain http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

The game does enforce a set of penalties which keeps solo units from wiping out entire armies. Namely: Fatigue and the -1 defense per attack after the first rule. Unfortunately, life drains drains both HP and fatigue so you are doomed anyway. Take away lifedrain and building an SC becomes more complicated.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Taking life drain without removing regeneration and reivigoration from items will not have much of an effect. It will certainly shift the balance of power, but it will not bring back any of the fun.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Actually take away life drain and insure that every unit has at least 1 base encumberance. That pretty much fixes the SC problem. ( oh and change soul vortex to take a gem and/or require very high paths -- or remove it your choice ).

I don't know if it makes the game better over all but it pretty much eliminates the SC taking on an army thing.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Not true. Regeneration and reinvigoration work once per turn, while life drain works once per strike. An ice devil with +200% heroic quickness, magical quickness, boots of the behemoth, and 2 weapons gets 12 attacks per turn and can trample lots of units. In return it generates 6 times the normal fatigue, plus a huge amount of fatigue from trample.

There is no way to equip this unit with reinvigoration items so that it will regain all of its fatigue each turn (it would probably fall asleep after 2 turns). There is no way to equip it so it will regenerate all its damage every turn, even if it is just up against hordes of weaker units and has heavy armor and ethereality.

However, give it 2 blood thorns, and it suddenly has 12 lifesteal attacks per turn - more than enough to replenish all fatigue (even from 100 to 0) and restore health to above maximum (even from 1 HP) every turn - except when fighting entirely lifeless armies.

Regeneration and reinvigoration items can make a combat unit much more powerful, and reinvigoration items are especially nice for mages. But they cannot create super-monsters that singlehandedly destroy massive armies unless there are units that are already overpowered and underpriced. In which case, the solution is to change those units. Lifedrain, on the other hand, can turn "balanced" units into virtually invincible units... the way lifedrain currently works. But lifedrain is set to change for Dominions 3.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Since that ice devil has trample, it will never use its weapon attacks, and will never regain fatigue or health from them.

I hope that fatigue changes at the same time, as it is currently far too granular for the effect to work well.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Are you sure about that? I thought tramplers were supposed to trample until AP ran out, then use weapons... is it bugged?

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I agree about life drain. Being as it is now (drain life+fatigue) has following effect in MP games.
Players rush to summon SCs, then mass produce wraith swords/blood thorns to equip them.
It's very rewarding and efficient tactic.
So much that it has become a no brainner.

I think that taking away fatigue drain from drain life will have a real significant impact reducing SC tactics.

I also think that national troops and battle summons should be made cheaper. But this is only because I like epic battles. I want to see more armies made of varied troops that complement each other, backed by support units (mages. priests).

Currently in my typical MP game I have any number of small armies (usually one-four SCs) as my offensive force.

edit: wonder what are the devs planning to do about this on DOM-III

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Yes I'm sure, and no, they never use their weapons unless the creature they are attacking is their size or larger.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I have absolutely no problems with SCs as they currently stand, as they are vital to prevent the game from devolving into a zerg rush of "whoever has the most troops wins".

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

The point about having life drain still stands, even if you remove trampling from the equation.

I'd say that SCs are not the only thing to prevent such a problem. Area effect spells, battle field summons, trample, artillary spells, etc. prevent this as well.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Ice devils do not have a trample attack. If they did, then they would never be used as a solo SC.

I personally like SCs. But I HATE the idea of a single SC taking on an infinite number of troops because of life drain. SCs ought to complement your army, not substitute for it. An equivalent sized army fight, one with a couple of SCs and one without, now THAT would be a cool battle. I would certainly bet on the army that contained the SCs even without life drain in the equation, which is only proper.

Somebody made a comment above about the risk of sending in an SC to battle. They do die, that's for sure. But SCs survive a lot more often when accompanied by a real army.

I truly believe all that is really needed to balance SCs is a method to ensure that ANY SC dies to pretty much any medium sized army when going solo. Fatigue is likely the proper answer to making that happen.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Can you add encumbrance to the life stealing weapons? If so we could run some tests to see how much is fair.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Which part of 'shift the balance of power' did you not understand? Of course, the king of the hill will change! The ice devil you described will fall in power (but sticking him with boots of trampling already ruins him)

On the other hand, there are units which do not use fatigue in hand to hand combat, there are units that have such huge amounts of HPs that they regenerate 30-40 hps with one item and build-in regeneration, and there are units that do not get hit in combat, even when it is a clash of SCs armies that lasts the full 50 turns.

Some units match all three of the above. If we were to forbid the life drain items in a game, I assure you that it will still be won with supercombatants.

By the way, a few weeks ago I watching my boyfriend's arch and ice devils one-shot killed by supercombatants without lifedraining weapons. I think that once he saw that happenning, he used mages to take care of the opposition. A supercombatant is no match for three well-scripted mages. An army of pure-melee supercombatants is no match for a similary priced army of mages. The only type of unit that gets the short end of the stick is non-commander, melee units. But in an age where the gods come down from Heaven to fight, how much would a dude with a short sword accomplish?

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I was wondering about Life Drain SC's versus SC's, even maringal ones with big swords like, Frost/Fire Brand(or armor piercing/negating), which are cheap, 1 handed, and do huge damage.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Panther ... i really like your answer ...

that's true! SC are good just as "hero" in an army (and theyr are, of course, funny) ... what I don't' like is just have a SC that kills armies alone!

... anyway, making sure that no one could really get rid of all fatigue alone (with items and spells) could help a lot!

good play
Liga

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I would have never believe I'd write that, but I mostly agree with Panther. The best battles are these in which well equiped supercombatants and a retinue of well-scripted mages face off. I have saved three battles like this, and sometimes watch them and draw conclusions. I think we posted one or two here.

Personally, I am not too worried about SCs taking on armies and winning. If one rushes for SCs, she will get low-end SCs by turn 10-15. By that time, good nations can come up with a mage-based anti-SC squad. Not all nations, of course.

As for those who try, on turn 30, to fight SCs or mage squads with vanilla national troops, I have no sympathy for them. Cavarly charges against tanks have been tried, and I have no sympathy for those who got slaughtered in them. The Russians claim that Gen. Dovator had quite a bit of success using partisan cavalry tactics in WWII... but even if that's true, it's only the exception that confirms the rule.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

That dude with a short sword won't accomplish anything.
But along with his thousands of friends he will strike terror in the hearts of other men.

Just read your generic fantasy novel, like dragonlance, the bad guys ALWAYS have to build a massive army, the force of evil, the cloak that will cover the world, the... etc.
So yeah, that one guy with a short sword won't do much, but along with his army they will be the ones that conquered the world (and/or finally vanquished that annoying hero).

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I think that the game balance is shifted too much towards SCs right now.

The way I see it there's a continuum between few, powerful troops and many weak troops, and right now Dom II is definitely more toward the 'few but powerful' end - this is simply the biggest bang for your buck. I think we'd see more strategic depth if SCs were made a little less potent.

I know that there are counters to SCs, but some nations don't have easy counters, especially for high MR SCs (most all the items mentioned (eye shield, etc.) have an MR check, so they become pretty much ineffective with a SC with a MR of 20+). These nations are hard to play competitively. NE Pan is a great example - also Ulm - of a nation that would do much better if SCs weren't so powerful.

I also agree with the comment about life-draining weapons - this is the single factor that often pushes a SC from 'challenging' to 'impossible' for a regular army to deal with.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

These work, but I presonally prefer using swords that provide damage to which the enemy is particularly vulnerable. For example, herald lances against undead and demons, elf banes against elemental royalty, cleavers against constructs, etc...

The problem with using marginal commanders is that against a full blown SC they have trouble hitting, and that even when they hit, they are not garanteed a one-shot kill. Yes, you can increase their strength and attack with items, but then they become quite expensive - you are better off summonning a moderately tough commander to give them to.

That said, a Niefel Jarl will have no problem one-shoting a SC with the appropriate weapon, and Vanir and Thuatra may actually survive long enough to wear down the SC.

Yesterday or so, I had a fight in which a newly-recruited, but well-equiped Vanadrott supported by two Vanherses accidentally ran into a fully-equiped, highly-experienced earth king with boosted regeneration. The Vanadrott fought for nearly 40 turns before catching two blows in quick succession, and dying, but his escorts ultimately won, and gathered his equipment. Note that these were raiders scripted for fighting national armies and province defense, not SCs.

The earth king would not have stood a chance against a squad sent especially for him. A SC without the crazy regeneration (30+) would have died even against the Vandrott.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I think it's neat that it is possible for SC to exist. I think they are a bit too easy to create, though. I'd like to see at least options (and mods - I've been working on one) to make them more expensive so they are still possible, but much more difficult.

I think the Life Drain weapons are a bit part of it, but not all.

PvK

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Absolutely. Even on turn 100, I still use recruitable commanders for mopping up revolts, keeping down unrest, catching spies, and even raiding the enemy's heartlands. Police work, as it is.

Well, you do not have to go that far to look for an example. Modern wars are won with bombardment, air supremacy, and armour incursions, but the occupied territories are held with infantry. But would you send Hummers with mounted machine guns and companies of riflemen against an armour company?

Yes.

Possible, but unlikely. Tanks break down, and do get covered in branches and set on fire, smoking or cooking the crew in the process. But how often does it happens? Even in crappy fantasy novels, the main hero seldom dies to a faceless mob.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

This statement completely overlooks the tactical scripting of a well designed army. The last... three or so games I have played haven't had any SC's at all (due to house rules) and its most certainly not just "who has the most troops wins". Placing your army correctly, knowing your troops and the enemy troops, and scripting intelligently has allowed me to defeat "superior" forces on a number of occassions.

One could make an argument that placing/scripting these armies and understanding the tactics of your opponent is no different than designing and scripting SCs and anti-SCs to fight your enemy. And that seems valid to me... but honestly I like watching big armies of men duke it out on the battlefield. So much more epic! Tho I would like to see the hero-style SCs that people were suggesting, rather than mega-army-killers.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

How many militia (or some other troop type, if you like) are people thinking a 'hero-style' SC should be able to kill on average? Ten? Twenty?

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

"Vital" in the sense that they are one thing that makes the game not "whoever has the most troops wins".

However I think there are plenty of other things that also accomplish that. I almost never use SC's, and I love the game, especially when I'm just using troops and "thugs" and other stuff.

PvK

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I've never tried this on well developed SC's before, but don't magical SC's (like air queens) suck against ether warriors, and demon SC's suck against a couple groups of angels of the host?

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

If they can do more damage than is restored per turn, perhaps. A well-equipped air queen with mirror image might be hard to hit.

There's always Pan CW for being hell on enemy SCs; defense goes down with many attacks on the same turn, and sleep vines get 3 per with each hit delivering armor-negating unresistable fatigue damage... and there's no attack vs. defense roll on those already unconscious. Anybody unconscious and facing more sleep vines is therefore likely to never wake up.

In the more general case, the aforementioned elf banes, solar lances, moon blades, even bane blades and banefire archers (decay, and potentially many MR checks per salvo) and banefire (massive unresistable damage with a chance of decay) should help. Curse should help versus those relying on life draining instead of regeneration or recuperation, as a blind SC won't fight very well.

In extremis, I wonder how many Crystal Mages it would take to reliably slap one with Gifts from Heaven. 150 points of pure physical damage is not to be laughed at.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

10-20 decent units sounds pretty good. That's enough that they will have an impact on the battle but not so much that they will crush you utterly if you dont have a special defense.

You know... something that might be interesting would be to have "hero units" as a normal non-commander troop. And they randomly appeared at your capital, much like how maenads or those seahorse for Ocenia do. They would be uber-troops and you could drop them into your normal formations for some extra punch or something? Tho of course they would have to appear at a much slower rate...

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

If so, that's nice for high astral nations. Since they all need a boost=)

If "Smite Demon" was very high damage, pure physical, long range (40+), no MR roll, high precision (100) all rolled into a single spell... or if it was as it is now, but holy-2... it would be useful.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I like the way things are balanced now. SC can kill some plain mundane armies easily, anti-SC SC can kill anti-army SC, special anti-SC squads can kill any kind of SC, anti-anti-SC squads or SCs can demolish anti-SC squads in retaliation etc. This makes it a challenge to create a strong army that can deal with various opposition. Typically, such army would include few SC, few strong mages, some weak mages (part protected, part not), few anti-SC squads, some damage dealing squads, some squads to disrupt and slow down opposition etc. Removing SCs out of equation would simplify those issues and I don't like it. SCs are already dying easy enough now. (Damn those tritons that hit Tartarian for 200 of damage!)

I disagree that rush to SC is a must, I played few very successful games using no SCs and mostly national armies until quite late in the game. Some nations are good, some are not, so the strategy varies depending on the nation. One of the problems SC have is that they're usually less numerous than national armies. So when one side is attacking with couple of dozen of national armies, what the other side (which has let's say 5-10 SC) is supposed to do? National armies are cheap and easily replaceable and putting SC in the open alone often mean losing it. So how SC-side can defend? They can choose which battle they win, but they lose majority of battles. So to me the balance seems fine.

Looking at it from thematic point of view, it would look strange if few thousands infantrymen could defeat some fully equipped Tartarian Titan (hey, he was a god after all). But on another hand I can imaging that Tartarian may get bored killing all those annoying infantrymen. So maybe, there should be a new parameter - boredom, which increases if the unit is fighting somethign easy and decreases when it defeats something challening (for example, another SC) http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I've heard a lot of people claim this and never found it to be true. Quite the opposite. SCs are cheap and easily replacable (Bane Lord, Tartarian, etc) if you have the magic levels to create them. National armies require huge investments (esp. in resources and supply items), and I find effective anti-SC techniques are always harder to make than SCs. As for rushing - of course you have to rush, to get the best (unique or limited) SCs, and double-rush if you want to make them invincible with unique artifacts too. Otherwise you're left summoning weak fallen angels because all of the ice devils and arch devils are taken.

Where do the cheap and easily replacable national armies come from? I've never seen or built one, except when I play Ashen Ermor. Every MP game I've played (not many) was dominated by SCs as soon as they were researched. I like to play single player because AIs don't use SCs, and the game is more fun and strategically + tactically interesting if I have to use real armies instead of just moving my SCs around without even bothering to check what's in the target provinces, because the outcome is assured. So I don't use SCs in my single player games anymore because it feels like cheating.

If making each SC took resources similar to a huge national army, that would be OK. But they simply don't, and have huge advantages in mobility, supply usage, and upkeep on top of that.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Rambo III http://www.si-games.com/forumshttp:/...ies/lachen.gif

OT : One serious concern with the Anti-SC-Mages is though always that many in theory decent mages ( e.g. Pythium , Theurgs + Communion ) get killed easily by anti-mage spells like Rain of Stones/Earthquake etc. . Both can be casted very easily by Tartarians .

A Drain Life squad is more expensive then a few SCs . Either you take Demiliches or stuff like Sauromancers + Deathstaff or you take the Drain life Standards but they also cost 20 deathgems .
A Banelord with drain life standard + boots of flying for mobility + jade armor costs 10 deathgems + [ 20 Deathgems + 5 Earth + 5 Water + 5 Air gems ] * Forgeboni .
Equipping this Banelord into a thug would be cheaper and probably more promising .

The problem is that imo there is always a too big rush for the ultraelites . If you have mech men and devils you won't use other troops expect those 2 .
If you have tartarians why should you ever use any other kind of mages ?
If you have wish why shouldn't you wish each turn for 1-2 AQs or similiar SCs each turn ?

There are 2-3 troops / mages / Scs / weapons / spells that are so uber that you use them almost exclusively once you have them .

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Same here. As much as I enjoy winning the SC race, I can see that the game would be much deeper if national armies remained relevant. But I also think that nerfing life drain is just about all that is required.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

A bane lord has to have extremely expensive equipment that at least triples his cost in order to make him able to stand up to elite national troops. He'll need a luck pendant, antimagic amulet, starshine skull cap, wraith sword, flying boots, and a jade armour at the very least. Even then, a lucky set of 50 barbarians or so can take them out from time to time.

Very few of the artifacts are worth using on SCs. The weapons are only worthwhile if you also have a blood thorn or can cast soul vortex and have a regeneration source. The armours are too heavy for anything that isn't undead and very beefy. The shields are very good.

The devil commanders from hordes from hell would almost certainly be a better use of your blood slaves.

Well, that's to be expected if you're playing against the AI. You simply cannot send SCs into a battle unsupported after a certain point in the game, as they will be taken down by an appropriately constructed army or ghostriders.

Should the battlefield affecting spells also take similar amounts of resources then? Wrathful skies is far more effective at destroying a huge national army than even the most expensively equipped bane lord ever would be.

Armies have their own advantages, they can be far more numerous in number than the amount of SCs that your opponent can put out. If you have a dozen armies, he needs more than a dozen bane lords, and that gets extremely expensive.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Bane Lords are relatively easily replaceable. If you equip them with wraith sword, boots of quickness and luck pendant only (still 35 gems and they're not particularly strong). non-Commander tartarians are somewhat easy to replace (if you have research and if you have enough death mages with death boosters), but only GoR-ed Tartarians can be used as SC, and that's quite costly, especially 20 nature for GoR.

It is not particularly hard to deal with a particular SC, but it is hard to deal with any SC. So as long as you know what SC you'll meet you should be ok.

There isn't many artifacts that are good for SCs. Couple of shields and few swords and that's about it.

Devils commanders are pretty good, cheap and they come with the imps and at desired location. I often prefer them to Ice/Arch-Devils. If you plam to use them for raiding they work just as well as great devils and considering that you generate that devil by casting HfH on enemy's province gaining gold and gem income, the devils comes essentially free.

Here are some:
- couple of seithkonur with half a dozen of giants (this one is somewhat expensive, but they usually retreat as soon as things start look dangerous, so you rarely lose them)
- 2-3 death hags with few vaetir (very cheap and stealthy, somewhat difficult to replace, because you're getting hags with other picks as well, but blood hags are useful for hunting and astral hags good to complement big combined armies and meanwhile you can put them on research).
- 1-2 seraphs and 4-5 archers (cheap, mobile and efficient) Similar armies will work for any other air nation (though not as cheap and not as mobile)
- 1-2 sauromancers and few light infantrymen (or falchioneers)
- indy commander, feathered warrior and few dozen of Mictlan slaves
- Pan with something (something may vary). This is an extremely deadly combination, because due to stealth they are hard to destroy and the enemy never knows if he's going to meet no resistance or encounter couple of extra MR-penetrating Pans. So while the enemy deals from the swarms, Pans can subvert everything valuable at their leisure.
- Pythium has plenty Theurg-based variations, which can vary air/astral scripts.

Generally, the idea is to buy 3-5 armies per turn (depends on the map size) and attack everywhere.


[/quote]

There's some truth in this. If you're using your SC solo, there isn't much point to check what's in the provinces you're moving to, because:
- if there's something strong there it will move out as likely as not
- if there isn't anything strong there, it may come (or not come) there trying to guess your movement.
In any case, if the opponent won't guess you'll get a province and if the opponent will guess you'll get one dead SC (unless opponent is Pangaea, in which case the opponent will get one fully equipped and experienced SC http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif ).

That's true, because AI doesn't know how to deal with SC. But it doesn't apply to human opponents.

Well, building *huge* national army is generally a bad idea. As a minimum, you'll have something left open because your mages won't have all necessary paths. If you invest in a huge army you need to make sure to cover all obvious weaknesses, so it won't get defeated by something trivial, so normally you'd have some combination of nationals, summons indies and SCs in your huge army. Do you have any national army in mind, which wouldn't be decimated by much cheaper force without any SCs? (only Jotunheim and Machaka might be able to field something reasonably sturdy)

So the idea is to buy many cheap national armies. They won't have supply problem, their number will compensate for lack of mobility and upkeep won't be too high.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

Got it; I misunderstood you. When I think "National Army" I think:

200 Ulm Infantry + 8 Smiths + 20 Black Knights
or
200 Mictlan Slaves + 200 Warriors + 25 Eagle/Sun Warriors + 10 mages and 50 blood slaves
or
30 Hydras with several poison-immune-item mages to cast body ethereal
or
30 Valkyries / Vans with 200 Hirdmen + 200 medium indy archers + 3 Vanadrotts + 5 Smiths

... and so forth. These numbers don't include various arrow-target units or bodyguards for the mages. Your "national armies" are much cheaper, much smaller, and much more mage-centric. Obviously they are effective for you, so I'll have to try them... but I would consider them "raiding parties" http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif Still, it seems to me that a party with 5-10 fighting units would rout too fast to do anything, e.g. if one of the units took a single arrow from a defender, Dominions II gives the entire army about a 50% percent chance of routing. Once two units are killed, they'll all leave for sure, even if the mages could win singlehandedly. In other words, it seems like they'd have trouble attacking province defense of around 20 (especially backed by a mage or a few archers) let alone taking castles, conquering indies (at settings of 6+), or really doing anything useful except invading provinces where the opponent forgot to hire any province defense...

But, I'll try them out.

Re: But do you really like SC in dominions2 ?
 

I think those raiding parties are succesful because Provincial Defence is not bought (in high enough numbers), and that in turn is because it is said to suck.

I agree with your definition of an army. That's what I'd like to see!