(Shocking) News!!!!!
 

I don't know if you have read the SG Blog lately, but I found this.....

Comments please?!?

My first comment:
Whoa.....

Re: (Shocking) News!!!!!
 

Yes indeed. Unexpected I'd say.

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Definitely unexpected.

And probably quite annoying for Shrapnel- this has happened several times now.

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I said *woah* too, and I was worried. Where will we get useful tips and tricks, friendly OT discussions, and give feedback to modders? And selling SE5 through commercial outlets? *shudder* How many "Sphereworld components won't fit on a baseship, and all my colonys are empty"-type questions will we have to field.

Then I see that Shrapnel Games is going to keep an SE5 forum up for us. That's nice of them.

So ... give some thanks the folks at Shrapnel. Click on something in the border. Dunno if it'll help, but I like to give support back where I can.

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Yeah, SE:V would have been a good money maker with an already established and somewhat fanatical base. A big loss for Shrapnel.

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It will be a loss for Shrapnel, yes, but I also think Aaron lost out on SEIV because of the limits on distribution. It's generally accepted that SEIV is current pinnacle of 4X gaming, and if he had reached a bigger audience, wow. Lexus anyone?

Now, I'm not saying that bigger is better. Give me the chintzy bitmap graphics over flashiness every day (I play War in the Pacific regularly, which features NO graphics).

But let's be honest. He deserves all the success (and capital) that he's entitled to, and a bigger distributor would make that possible. Not to mention the funding it would provide for SE6 http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I like Shrapnel Games, and appreciate their efforts to help indie developers. Even Electronic Arts operated out of a garage at one time. I'm just wondering if there is something they can do that is more aggressive and would attract a bigger market. I think TheGamingNews.Com will help a bit. Even I would like to see more games like Dominions or SEIV make it mainstream.

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Another interesting side effect:

As far as I can tell, this means that -every 4x game on the market- is being sold by the same publisher.

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Well we can differ on this subject but I don't think SE:IV in retail would have helped much. I also can guarantee you that SE:IV in Retail would have meant less money for Aaron over it's sales cycle.

We have been offered retail deals, and even considered taking Dom 2 and SE:IV (as well as other games) into retail ourselves through our own contacts in the industry, but it just isn't a good deal for developers or any one else involved.

I wish him luck, this has always been my personal favorite game that we currently publish.

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Pretty surprising. In my opinion Aaron did a mistake here. Shrapnel is known for publishing of "niche" games, i dont think a better publisher for SEV could have been found. In addition im wondering if the publisher/sale change will have any effect on the development of the game.

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Im sorry to see it moving away from Shrapnel. This company publishes alot of good games. I might not like all of them, but I certainly enjoy a larger percentage of them than any other publisher that I have met.

Being in "good company" can attract the attention of like-minded individuals that might not be shopping for your game, but would be interested based on the quality of other games under the same unbrella. This works for both Malfador and for Shrapnel.

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Dam... I never expected that. But i guess that's business.

And I have to say Thank you to Sharpnel for the forum offer, This place is great and the effort you put here is immense, There isn't a forum i've been on that I've enjoyed more than here. I'll have to go buy a copy of Dominions II or some other Shrapnel Sold Product now out of Loyalty http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/wink.gif

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I am disappointed that he is leaving especially before SEV comes out. IMHO, I feel that he is losing more then he realizes, If you take into account this forum and those on it that not only play his game but actually go out and advertise it, I don't see Strategy lst having the same kind of player forum base, but I might be wrong. If he looks at Strategy's lst forum site he might realize that their setup and forums don't compare to ours. I have a number of their games, and I have seen that their support is a minus compared to Shrapnel's as well as the friendly feelng in their forums is not anywhere near to par as Shrapnel. I do wish him luck and hope he eventually returns to us. We'll miss him

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Yea, I kinda found out about this when not long after it was decided (was in contact with Aaron during a now-abandoned project we were doing)

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Surprising indeed. I am not sure the game will be any better by getting into the retailer stores; if all goes well (not a given in itself), it might result in a better market penetration abroad though. At least in France, a game *has* to be available in stores and in French to sell really well, and will usually not even be reviewed in the mainstream press if the first condition isn't met. Strategy 1st may be able to help in those areas... or perhaps not.

I gather Strategy 1st does business like everyone else in the retail industry? That is, will the game drop in prices once it has been available for a few months? If so, it will be another matter: I would expect many sales of SEIV to have been made months or even years after the game was first published, and those were still profitable. SEV is unlikely to get that kind of window of time while nearing games selling much more quickly.

Well, we shall see I guess. I am glad SEV will still be "sheltered" on those boards; hats off to Shrapnel for that.

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Holy crap! This sucks, I always had nothing but good things to say about Shrapnel and their support....I doubt I can say the same thing about Strategy First....Damn. And I sure as hell hope that switching publishers won't increase the price of SEV when it comes out...I'm not exactly rolling in cash, and I can't afford an increase.

Does anyone have any idea why Aaron is going away from Shrapnel, and heading for the retail market?? The obvious consideration is that he thinks he can make more money, but I'm not sure if that's going to happen. I mean, how many people do you know that actually enjoy strategy games, especially games like SEIV?? As a proportion of the gaming population it is quite small, and I'm not so sure SEV will do well in retail. I sure hope it does, that'd be great, but I have my doubts. Obviously Aaron doesn't though.

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well, S-F has some very flashy looking games. The game designers all have some very flashy looking web pages. Even the glamor shots of SE5 dont stack up with whats already out at S-F.

So I honestly think that MM is going to sink like a rock in that environment. The kiddies just are not going to be interested when the bells and whistles are not chromed.

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Alneyan: I heard that Andres made a Spanish translation of SEIV once, perhaps you could do a French translation, perhaps even for Malfador itself, as they would then also be able to sell more copies in, say, Canada.

And as for further comments:
Good luck Aaron. Here's hoping SEV will appeal to the "mainstream" gamers more, so it attracts more attention in the gaming world.

Who knows..... in a few years you might actually be on the E3 with a Malfador stand! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/laugh.gif

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I fear that dumbing it down to mass-market levels will totally ruin the game.

Hopefully it will just mean dumbed down and graphics-intensive stock settings, with higher quality** mods for the rest of us.

-----

** Complex, challenging and imagination-firing, with lots of decisions to consider among designs, strategies and development. To hell with graphics; make it a good, hearty spreadsheeter, and use an ASCII-art shipset http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

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Alneyan, this is the retailers' bad and there isn't much the publisher can do about it. If a game doesn't hit a certain turn level (so many copies per week), then the retailer either wants the publisher to take it back (free the shelf space for something that turns faster) or reduce the price (bargain bin it). The publisher can't pay to bring the games back from retail, then turn them around again to get them to the consumer - it would be a losing proposition. So there only option is to reduce the price.

It is why retail is so undesirable for niche games. They can't do the numbers quick enough to keep them out of the bargain bins. They aren't allowed to develop a following, the shelf space is too precious to the retailer.

You should read our blog on "Why Traditional Retail and Niche Games Don’t Work" - posted on 2/24/2005 - for the scary numbers.

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Truefully I think SEIV was a perfect match for Shrapnel. And I think that Shrapnel helped SEIV as much as SEIV helped shrapnel.

I am disappointed with the announcement. The protental for bigger is not always the protential for better.

This series is not a mainstream game. It is for a small piece of the market.

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The only reason I walk into retail stores anymore, is to see which of last year's great niche games i can pick up for under 10 bucks.

Its sad, really.

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well guess i will see people here and there....

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3 posts.

Either way. It was a good time for aaron here and I wish him luck on his new adventure with SEV.

If I like the game I will support the game as much as i can.

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The only reason I walk into retail stores is to see if a game I've heard about and want is there, and at how much it currently sells, and to pick a game up that I have been looking forward to for quite some time and is now about >$20 or something.

I hope this does not affect SEVI. I recall an excellent niche game with pretty crummy graphics (Settlers IV) that tried to go mainstream as "Settlers: Heritage of Kings". It threw just about EVERYTHING (some to think of it, not JUST ABOUT everything, simply EVERYTHING) that made it a Settlers game overboard and even though its graphics look "better" now, and it's a pretty good game in its own right, it has absolutely NO right to call itself a Settlers game. I hope this is NOT an omen regarding SEVI..... (as SEV is currently nearing beta and is thus purely Aaron's, but SEVI could very well be influenced by the dreaded Marketing Department)

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There's only a small number of computer games that manage to grab, and hold, my attention for a longer period of time. SE4 is one of them (as well as the SimCity and Civilization series, I keep going back to them). Unfortunately, they're not really the kind of games that sell well. If SE5 is going to go retail, it'll have to compete with the 3D shooters, sports and race games that are so popular at the moment. Tough job.

Coincidentally, a Belgian pc games magazine (imho the best on the Dutch market, as it focuses only on pc games) reviewed 3 games published by Matrix Games last month. 2 of the 3 were similar to SE: stat-heavy strategy games for the 'serious' gamer. They got mediocre scores because of the low-tech graphics and the 'lack of action'.

I don't think the general public will become excited about SE5 and I seriously hope this won't affect a possible SE6 (or the community) in a negative way.

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Strategia => A translation is a mod will not be enough to break foreign markets (speaking of France at least): a translated manual could help, but there is little inside the files that can be a problem for the users. The explanations about what *is* an APB aren't needed to play the game; knowing how research works is, though I have found SE to be easy enough to understand. The main use of a translation is to make it easier to sell a game in those countries were foreign languages have a harder time (it would be much less of a factor in Scandinavia).

Tim => I should have been clearer. Does Strategy 1st go into "cheaper sales" as quickly as other publishers? Some publishers wait for a lot longer before dropping the prices of their games, while other publishers are much more willing to go to the magic $15 price tag. There may be a difference between the US market and here however: can the same edition of a game have a decreasing price in the US? Almost all games stick above $30 here when first published, and only drop to $15 in a new box, with even lower prices requiring another edition. Or is it just a matter of removing the manuals and changing the boxes, with the unsold full price CDs filling the "$15 edition" boxes?

Hmm, that wasn't any clearer, was it?

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As I understand it part of "game drops" happen because of discounts for bulk purchases. The stores drop the price for what they have in the warehouse, not the publisher. And many retailers have stopped purchasing from front-line publishers due to lack of agreements meeting the store policies (at least thats what the local retail store said. The stores want to allow returns all the way up channels (or re-shelving) for complaints the way they can with a toaster or a sweater. They can with game catridges and those cheap $10 3rd hand titles but not with sotware from the publisher. (Shrap can correct me on that)

Aaron is doing the standard high-stakes "gamble". He gambled that he had enough followers from his first games (am I remembering right?) to go with a publisher that managed all of the "work hour" stuff like online ordering, overseas coverage, publicity, reviews, coverage at trade shows, help-line support (like forums). In return he got almost instant flow of direct profit checks from beginning to end.

Now he apparently feels he has enough of a base to jump to the "shelfware and advertising" level. It doesnt take alot of reading in the games and development newsgroups to see the pros and cons of that. That goes from "work hours" to hefty "$$$ investment" by the publishers. And that has to be paid back before the developer sees anything from it. There are alot of gripe sessions from publishers naming major companies and complaining that they never saw any money on what they thought was a fairly popular game. They got a bigger base but no payoff so the next version switched publishers again to someone geared for steady checks. Maybe Aaron will come back for SEVI (Keep going Aaron. I want to see the advertising for SEX)

You know, nothing really stopped any of us personally (Aaron included) from doing the "advertising gamble for return" thing with our own moneys as a middle-man site.

Check out the "about us" on the main page and read why Shrapnel was created. It helps.

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You know what I hate about games lately? They're almost all sold in small "DVD boxes" instead of the "old" bix cardboard box. The small DVD boxes are pretty OK, but you get SO LITTLE in print..... I mean, in HOMM4 all that was in print was a tutorial guide, whereas in the "old" boxes there were usually good manuals, catalogues, sometimes extras.....

And the WORST part is multi-CD games with only a single CD slot in the box. It's SHEER INSANITY having to get one or more CDs out of the fricking thing (as some are MOST user-unfriendly and removing a disc from them involves lots of words that had you used them here would have immediately caused you to be kicked out of the forum) and then later having to do the same thing again.

And Aaron, I plead to you, PLEASE, follow your OWN imagination! Don't go with the Marketing Department! Approx. 80% of the games released lately are CRAP because of that dept..... the MarkDept currently seems to rule the games industry and get the overall quality of games down. Please, Aaron, don't succumb to this! Be original! Be creative! Be YOURSELF!

-----and as for the ASCII art ships.....

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This IS shocking!
I hope I'm wrong for Aarons sake but I think he is making a big mistake, staying with Shrapnel would be the better option IMO. (Not least because of the great community here, let alone the fact we have friendly talkative Publishers http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/shock.gif here )
*Looks up and waits for the sky to fall in for such blasphemy* http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

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I'm hoping that Aaron will see "the light" and return to Shrapnel when SEV hits the market (or preferably before that)..... but when the game suddenly becomes a massive hit, and SEVI and possible SEVII don't suffer in gameplay, I would congratulate Aaron. But then I still think he should return to Shrapnel. Perhaps this will also attract more attention to Shrapnel in general as well.

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Richard, thank you for hosting an SE5 forum. You've really helped the space empires community flourish. I hope the best for aaron and you and I hope that the best means aaron will come back to shrapnel.

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Alneyan, sorry I misunderstood. This is a European thing, I know Ubisoft (that's a French Company, correct?) does this - they did it with Ghost Recon 2 here in the states - I think it lasted about 6 months or so before the repackaging and drop. I know Empire Interactive (British) did this over here with my title 101: The Airborne Invasion of Normandy. Most US publishers don't repackage with the price drop. Strategy First is Canadian, so I'm not sure how they handle this.

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Small boxes are cooler.

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Ok, I'm going to be harsh here and I hope you read this Aaron. I may not be an expert on the industry, but as an avid gamer who's been playing games since I was two and a half, I'd like to think I know something about games. Aaron, Star Fury did not have industry competitive graphics and neither will Space Empires 5. You don't have the money to do it. Nowadays if you don't have huge amounts of advertising and awesome graphics your game will always be a niche game. I'm sorry, but that’s just the way it is. The average gamer is going to conclude that this is a stupid spread sheet game when he can't figure it out in the first five minutes. He's going to tell his friends what a bad game and all of this will land Space Empires 5 into the bargain bin and beyond in no time. You’re going to have to deal with hackers, script kiddies and just generally malicious people who's goal is to just hurt Space Empires 5. Aaron, if you're reading this I'd like to say what joy the space empires series has brought me and as a loyal fan, I feel I owe you my thoughts when I think you are making a big mistake. You got greedy, plain and simple. Stick with shrapnel, the real world is too harsh for good games with less than fantastic graphics. I hope for your personal success as you have shown me and the rest of Malfador's fan base nothing but respect.

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I also posted my 2 cents as a respone directly to the blog post.

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My last couple of comments were in the "if you can't say anything nice" vein.

My actual reaction is a gut "Oh [censored]" feeling. SE5 was a instant order before this; now I don't now. I know Shrapnel doesn't screw with their games to make them more mass-market; I DON'T know that about Strategy First, and I'm worried about that.

It almost invariably hurts the game and it almost never actually works.

Best of luck Aaron, and while I don't know the circumstances involved this feels like a mistake.

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Hey have any of you ever heard of Galactic Civilizations? That is thru Strategy First as well and it was a great CIV3 in space game. I'm not worried. I can't wait for SE:V. Just make sure that what ever you do you do not cheese out like MMO3.

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Ahhh the march of change. I'm not about to liken this to Roman resistance to adopting Jesus as top dog, but I hope it won't take the gaming community 300 years to accept Aaron's departure for Strategy First.

I definitely understand where everyone is coming from. We love our game the way it is. We want Aaron to take what he's learned from the community and build it into SEV. Early indications are that this is already happening. From the list of intended features, I don't plan on getting married because she'll only leave me out of neglect. All the elements for a masterpiece of a 4X game are there. If anyone can make it, Aaron can. He's done it already with SEIV.

But let's try a glass half full approach for a moment:

"Aaron, moving SEV to Strategy First, revolutionizes the way 4X games are created, developed, and received by the general gaming community, and earns for SEV and SEVI a place on the shelf next to Rome: Total War, and Napoleon: Total War. He ends up knighted by the Queen, who has spent countless hours locked in conflict with the EEE and the Xiati. President Bush declares the release date of SEV a national holiday. Aaron creates world peace ala The Wyld Stallyns."

We don't know what input Strategy First is going to have, if any. It's entire possible they know gold when they see it and will give Aaron carte blanche. If not, then just don't buy it since you're sure it's going to be an abysmal failure simply because of its increased distribution or retail ambitions. Someone else will eventually retake the 4X throne if Aaron dethrones himself.

Now, really. Understand I'm a lover of Shrapnel like the rest of you. Interstellar Trader eats up coffee breaks, and my friend wants to burn my computer for the repeated beatings he's taken in Dominions. But for people to already be making judgment calls is a little premature. For all we know this could be the best thing to ever happen to the world. I'm telling you. Singing in the streets of Delhi. Wait and see.

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Shocking? Yes, it is. As much as I love this game I think it is going to get murdered in the retail market. Games being released now are extremely graphic intensive. Take a look at the system requirements of popular games like Half Life 2. This is due to what drives the retail games market, younger gamers. Retail PC games have to compete with console systems so you can have the greatest gameplay in the world but if it don't look pretty and have tens of thousands of polys moving around on the screen, it won't sell. From what we've been shown of the game it can't compare.

Something else that worries me is that if the game doesn't do well how will that affect the series? If it bombs in the retail market could we be looking at the final chapter in the Space Empires saga? Isn't this game Aaron's primary income now?

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I read in the blog that Shrapnel will sell the current stores of SEIV and Starfury, but that's it...or at least that's the implication. After the stock here at Shrapnel is depleted, where will we be able to get SEIV and SF?? Will it even be possible?? Maybe I should buy my second copy now...

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I think thats what I might do too

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Wouldn't it be cool if we could keep the Shrapnel SEV community here a 'secret' that only old SEIV players knew, and kept the stupid whining kiddies and the like away from this place?? We should try. Keep the Strategy First forums for the frustrated kiddies.

You know, maybe we are all being too negative about this. I'm sure that, even though publishers are being switched, we'll all of us here still buy the game. I mean, basically he'll have the same amount of sales guaranteed as he got for SEIV, so maybe it's not such a risk for such potential gain. But what do I know.

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I don't think we should. Although I contemplated it myself, we should really try to bring some extra traffic here and help out shrapnel some. After all, they are letting us use their forum.

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I have a few Strategy First games and if "They" think that SE 5 is as good for a Strategy First lable then go for it.

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This is probably the best forum I've ever been on. I truly appreciate Shrapnel supporting us and our addiction. But, business is business. Aaron wants to try something different. Nobody knows how this will all turn out. I had noticed a lack of information from Shrapnel regarding SEV, but hadn't put it together yet.

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Both GalCiv and Civ 3 were trite and pointless... I don't see much hope with Strategy First.

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Remember how many times we have seen people complaining on the forums here about not being able to get SE IV in Europe or Australia or something? And then complaining about the awful shipping charges even if they could find a way to get it shipped to them? Wanna take a guess at how many more times people probably emailed him directly instead of posting in the forums? Probably a lot. And he has already had to deal with 'hackers and script kiddiez' for some time. Richard has already posted here in the past that they were estimating 10 copies of SE IV were pirated for every one bought. Maybe MM has judged that getting a major distribution channel is a better way to go so people who want his game can get it without having to resort to piracy.

I am also afraid of what the pressure of a 'marketting department' might do to the game, but I can see how he would want to get his product to as many people as possible and try to make money. But I suspect that even if it does relatively 'well' he won't make much due to the lopsided deals that these big-time software distributors make with the developers. It's very similar to recording contracts. The corporation soaks up all the money with protests of needing to cover 'expenses' and the artists can even end up owing the corporation money.

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Hmmm Shrapnel has overseas sales sites for Dominions so I figure they would for SEV if it was here.

Folks.. Keep in mind that the same number of sales of SEV as SEIV had will give give Aaron the same money that SEIV did. With the shelfware+advertising model there is a substantial outlay of money from the publisher which gets paid back with interest before the developer starts getting any checks.

Definetly send the whiners to their forums. Have you seen them? The internal ones are the same software as this and not nearly as well setup. Its no wonder that most of their titles do their own boards off of different free sites. And many of them have some pretty extreme rules.

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Hmmmm,

Disapointing for Shrapnel, it must really irritate you when you work so hard with someone and they get up and go. I hope there are not too many hard feelings so that he can come back for SEVI.

What does this mean for the race to SEV tourney? What about the Beta slots and SEV copies?

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One thing that I'm surprised about that seems to have been forgotten is that Strategy First (a)is in bankruptcy (b)is now going to direct downloads...e.g. no retail

Do a Google search, you'll come up with both news items.

-Scott

PS: As far as GalCiv and Strategy First goes Brad Wardell, creator of GalCiv broke off with SF awhile back. Once again, search for it and you'll find his take on the deal.