Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Hello, everyone. It's past time that the Faerun maps get updated mapfiles, so that is exactly what is going to be in the offing in a few days. List of things to fix has included making Vanheim suck less and giving them a land bridge to the continent, fixing a several terrain type bugs and neighbor issues and updating a couple of other things that had been broken by patches to the game. And fixing the problem that killed all the starting troops for Man.

However, I mostly need feedback on the following issues:

1. I've seen some comments that gave me the impression that there are too many free water gem sites in the northern provinces (the ones that have Frozen Lands as a known feature) and that it helps kickstart clam hoarding for several nations. Is this a problem on either version of the Faerun map and should some of these known sites be removed?
2. Some of the special scripted provinces have pretty harsh garrisons, I would like to know which ones are overpowered and which ones are underpowered considering what you get for your trouble when you crack them open.
3. Is there call for the special province rewards to be altered?
4. Are there any other issues that would need modification or balancing with the current starting location setup?
5. Any other concerns or opinions about the maps you would like to talk to me about.

That's about it, now start blasting away. Just remember to tell me whether your comments apply to the small map, the large map or both. Noting how many games you've played on the maps will also be helpful. Note also that I will discard all feedback that is not backed up with solid reasoning. "Because I think so" without saying why will not cut it.

Thank you in advance.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

As far as clams go, I think people who don't like clamhoarding will play with an anti-clam mod so it won't matter, but if people play unmodded, then I don't know.

I have not played the map yet; I just downloaded it, so I can't speak for anything else. In general, though, 300+ province maps are way too big for me. Have you given any thought to a version with even larger (fewer) provinces?

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

No, I hadn't, but now that you brought it up, I might actually make one. Sound out if you want a Faerun map approximately around the size of the Cradle one, somewhere around < 250 provinces.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

If there was a small Faerun that was actually, well, small (100-150 provinces), I would actually play it. Doesn't the existing 'small' Faerun already have 250 provinces? So if you did make another version (im not specifically saying you should), make it actually small.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

I've played a couple of games on your excellent faerun map. A couple of comments:

1) The provinces with fortresses have to go. People almost always take the provinces in the early stages of the game with a scout. Wish it was not that way.

2) Couldn't care less about the clam thing as I always play with an anti-clam mod.

3) Perhaps you should boost the PD on hellkeep. That summoning circle is crazy and I personally will go for it each and every time. It already has the best PD on the map but perhaps it needs even more.

4) Calimport's PD seems a little too weak for such a great province. Some kind of heavy hitting flyer mixed in with he PD would really help. Or maybe switching the lions for a flyer.

5) Northen Thay doesn't have much going for it and a decent sized PD. Perhaps it should get some kind of resources?

That's all I really have off of the top of my head. It's a great map. Keep 'em comming!

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

I second that... I'd certainly play a 100-150 sized Faerun. It's a really neat looking map, but for me, big maps (250+) never seem to finish, or become tedious, and maps under 125 are the most fun.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

I'd definately use the map if it was around 100 or so provinces. I don't find the late game stuff (100+ turns)nearly as interesting as the earlier parts. Beautiful map, by the way!

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Thanks for the comments, people.

Huzurdadi, you seem to be still playing with the first version of the map, which had fortresses in most of the valuable provinces. I did make one map file update that addressed that issue, it removed all but two of them, and the ones that were left were both in the Moonshaes (which was just as well, given how vadly poor design of that part of the map screwed Vanheim over).

But since there seems to be call for a ~100-160 province Faerun, I'll see what I can do about cutting the small version of Faerun in half. Don't hold your breath, though, it will take some time to get done.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

I have only played one game on the original Faerun (as a tester way back then) and 3 games, all SP, on the small one, also mostly testing. The map is incredibly appealing due to its thematic flair and its graphics. But I have never stuck with it, and didnt want to play an MP game on it, for these reasons:

1. even the small map is too large
2. I have problems discerning provinces and province neighbors, even with the new and improved black sunbursts

Regarding point 2, I often didnt know what was a province, since there are no distinct province borders, and I am used to these. (I completely overlooked Calimport until I got surprised!)

In general, I like smallerish maps with interesting chokepoints. Your map is beautiful, and if it were half the size or even less, I would love it even more!

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Tinkthank, if you download the maps from Arryn's site, you will find that the even the targa files are updated. I added province borders way back when, sometime last summer. People really should pay attention...

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Sorry for not being up to date, I had been away for about 5 months, and did not check up on everythiing, but did want to give you my feedback from what I had known. I can retract my feedback -- and I think it looks like I will be taking another break for a while too once I finish editing Thilock's description files... So long, and good luck with your map.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Don't you see neighboring provinces even with turned on arrows by 8 also ?

Your Faerunmap is the greatest SP map for Dominions EDI . Brilliant work . I have no issues with it at all and played at least 15 SP games with it http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Thanks, Boron! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Tinkthank, I didn't mean to be harsh, so I'm sorry if you took it that way. The newer TGAs remove that complaint, which was quite valid and by no means yours alone. I remember Cainehill and others bending my ear about it quite a bit.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Oh one little complaint i have http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif. Your Maps are still not available at the Illwinter-Homepage for download http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif . So probably a not small amount of Dominions2-Owners doesn't know at all about your fabolous maps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

That's because of possible copyright issues. Arryn has been hosting them.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Speaking of which, I've uploaded to my site the corrected .map files you emailed me an hour ago.

I encourage those of you who want just the revised .maps to download only the archives containing the revised .map files (using the small text links I've provided on the page) rather than to re-download the much larger (13mb+) archives in their entirety. (Personally, it doesn't matter to me as my hosting provider has a very fat pipe, but I mention it just as a friendly suggestion to save you time.)

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Edi -

I dont want to sound like a fanboy, but I have to tell you that the Faerun_large map is beyond excellent. I play SP only and have played the map from several perspectives, including Manchaka, Pangaea, Vanheim, Jut, Tien, Ermor and Arco. I dont have any criticisms quite frankly. Starting placement is excellent for each of the countries and the garrisons are well placed, and, in my opinion, suitably tough, and form good chokepoints and borders.

One of the things I like about Vanheim is the fact that there is no land passage to the main contintent, although it does impact the selection of the starting god, and does tend to strand some of the leaders who cannot sail across the ocean. I get around this by setting up and defending an outpost on the main continent, build a castle, and start expanding.

I really enjoy huge epic sized maps with 400 to 500 provinces and wish there were more of them available. Your map has provided me with countless hours of enjoyment. I will download and play any updates you do to Faerun, but please, please, please, try your hand at another huge map soon! I am anxiously awaiting!!

Thanks for your incredibly hard work and dedication.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Thank you for the praise, Armagein. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

However, I must disagree with you about the lack of land bridge being a problem for Vanheim, as it drastically limits their available strategies (because the dwarven smiths cannot cross oceans without the sea provinces around the islands being conquered first and then rings of water breathing. Given the already crappy province sizes in the islands which severely limit gold income (very important for Vanheim due to expensive units), and one huge obstacle province right in the middle of the Moonshaes, it made Vanheim very weak. Not a problemin SP, but it sucks arse in MP, as I had cause to find out in one game. I trailed behind everyone right from the get-go in almost every category, and the first time I got attacked, it was game over for me. Not immediately, I gave back pretty good at first, but I was killed by attrition and lack of money. The map was intended also for MP, and the bad design in that part of the map made Vanheim virtually unplayable. That has now been fixed, along with some other more minor things (such as adding land access to all the islands and hardcoding poptypes for inland seas so that troops from any province can be made useful somewhere on the map).

As for new projects, I do not have any new huge map projects underway. The reason is that there are no suitable ready graphics available to base a map on that I would actually get passionate enough about to do, I have serious time constraints due to my studies and I have several other interests on my free time (several other things that related to Dom2 alone, and then everything else on top of that). But if something comes up that catches my fancy, I might do a new map.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

When will the updated Faerun Map be ready??

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Umm, did you read the thread, NT? Arryn has already posted the map files on her site. The targas were updated months ago, the map files just today.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Of course I have the ones which were updated months ago. With so many recent new postings I figured a new updated map was on its way.
I believed the point of people listing their likes and dislikes about the map indicated another update was coming.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

This is a Really Great Map, and I've played many games on it. We play with random start locations. The biggest problems occur:

1)Because it takes forever to get to a plain State from the jungles of Chult - maybe these should be no starts.

2)The Anaurock is far too easy to take. Normally, in a game you can get a waste or two, and yes they are easily taken, but on this map you can have 15 wastes and 3 or more swamps with a minimally strong starting army. The gem income is rather staggering. I'm not sure exactly how to fix this, but either stronger/special defenses, or more difficult movement through the area could help. . . And don't get me wrong I LIKE the Anaurock, but maybe it just needs toned down a little.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

OK, once again sorry for having posted feedback on an out-of-date version.
I tried some more on your New and Improved Version, and it really is MUCH BETTER.
"However..." http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif
I think I can put my finger on why it is still not my map of choice, under one caveat: You should not take this personally, and I believe very strongly that the two reasons I will give are purely a matter of completely subjective, highly contingent taste, and have no bearing whatsoever on your skills as an excellent map maker. In fact, I think most people will disagree with me, which is of course just fine. So this is just my humble opinion:

1. It is too big. I think I really don't come clear with anything over half its size.
2. It is too "busy". By this I mean there is too much "shiny stuff" which, because it looks like information but is not, detracts from my (admittedly: instrumental-functional) finding what I want in an unambiguous manner. Examples of these are the many lines (streets, I think? or other forms of borders?), points (representing, I think, cities), and words. I really like the "pretty bits" (things that look like mountains, or little islands, or rivers), however.

Well, I hope you will accept this honest bit of feedback for what it is, and thanks very much for all your efforts!

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Thanks for the comments. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

No, I'm not taking your criticisms personally. To each his own, and if you like maps about half the size of the Faerun maps, there is nothing wrong with that.

The reason there are those roads (major trade routes, really), cities, region names and so forth is that the map is a scan of the FR role playing game map, not something really made with a strategy game in mind. The graphics are nice enough on the map, better than on the old 2nd Edition maps, but those had a charm all their own, though. Personally I like the region names and country names being on the graphic itself, because I much dislike the province name filter in Dom2, it is too unaesthetic for my tastes.

I have the Waterdeep and Kara-Tur trail maps, and I would have made the map with those if there was any way to do it without mangling them beyond all recognition. But you would need one big-*** scanner (as in 1.5 meters by 2.5 meters) for that.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Considering that this map is the largest map created by a person... it is not too large. If there was 20 other maps with 400+ provinces then people can say its too large. No one else has even dared to create one as large... so Edi is KING in my book. The fewer limitations a game has the greater the replay value... example-Neverwinter Nights.
If the map editor is more user friendly in Dominions_3 I will gladly make some.

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

I am playing an MP game (as Atlantis) for the first time on the large Faerun. We used the Soapy mods which prevent clam hoarding. It is turn 83 or so and I have about 100 provinces, second only to C'tis. I must say it is a fine map and very pleasing to the eye.

The problem with Vanheim has already been noted. As Atlantis, I encircled Vanheim and then killed him at my leisure. It was no contest for him and I lost almost nothing, taking all the Vanheim islands (15 provinces) in 5 turns.

I thought the Calimport defenders were fine. I took it kind of early just to keep Marignon from grabbing it and getting the Navigators. I took some losses but it was worth it to me, and that was the location of the first fort I built. Any tougher defenders would mean it would sit there a bit longer unclaimed. The way it is now makes for interesting strategy between Atlantis, Marignon, and Machaka as to when to try to grab it and suffer the necessary losses during the early game.

The defenders on Mezro Jungle need to be modifed. I attacked it with a priest on hold and retreat about 5-6 times. This caused just about all the non-poison immune troops (including most of the commanders, the Jade guys, and Amazons, iirc) to eventually die to the hydra poison cloud. All that remained was to get the poison resist spell for my W9 Mother Guards and take it much too cheaply.

Vanheim had not taken Myrloch Vale when I killed him. I hit it with 8 ghost riders and killed most everything, allowing me to capture it without loss. It did seem very tough for sure. Certainly Vanheim thought so, for he left it alone.

I also took Waterdeep on turn 70 or so (nobody up there thought it worth capturing obviously) and it was an easy battle due to my huge army by that time. I remember sacking a few dozen earth trolls and water trolls to get it. No big deal to me, though it obviously was to Pangaea and Ulm who both left it alone.

I cannot comment on the other side of the map, not having seen much over there.

As for the map being too big, it really is. The main problem is that any MP game with 17 players will have frequent stales, some people going AWOL, several quitting to AI periodically, and such typical things like that. In my current game, there is much of this going on (as usual). Thus, there is really at most 10 players truly playing in any large game, which means big maps play even larger than they really are. My gold income has topped 8K and my gem income is nearing 300. That makes for very long turns. I pity poor Huzurdaddi/Soapyfrog playing C'tis, for his micro-management requirements are even worse than mine right now. Even on 48 hour QH with at least 1 person staling every turn, it is still too much to me to squeeze in full turns every time.

Well, I do thank you for all the time you put into making this map.

Panther

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Thank you for the well thought out feedback, Panther. I'd forgotten all about the problem with Mezro, but currently that is the only unfixed issue. I did beef Calimport up a bit by adding a bunch of flyers in there, but nothing too tough considering all the rewards.

Point taken about the lack of players, the large map really does require every position to be filled, the smaller one can miss a couple of the more centrally located players.

I've started some preliminary work on a pint-sized Faerun, but that's currently on hold as I explore options for getting my hands on the electronic versions of the Waterdeep and Kara-Tur trail maps. Those together represen the kind of Faerun I wanted to do from the get-go and I just had to settle for the western half. If I can get them in a form that allows me to do the whole Forgotten Realms (minus Zakhara and Maztica), the current Faerun map will look and feel like only a rough sketch in comparison.

Edi

Re: Faerun - Pending Update, Need Opinions
 

Neat, I'll look forward to both the pint-size and the real deal http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif