ot: 1 min of silence
 

Sad news yestarday, the pope john paul 2 had died http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/frown.gif lets all give him respect with 1 min of silence and a prayer for him.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Though i aint a religous person (in fact i wasnt in church for years) i did give him respect once i read the died. If a god exists, then im sure the pope was the person next to god here on earth. I really hope there is something like an afterlife, if so, the pope should get what he deserves for his life-work.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Too bad he had to die like this, the last years he was but a shadow of the man he was when he became pope. and I4m afraid some will always remember him as the frale guy that could barely speak.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Well, I'm not catholic, but it's always sad for those left behind when someone dies. My sympathies to catholics.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Thanks Narf and everyone. I'm not a very emotional person so I'm not upset. The way I see it these things will happen eventually (I spent the last few years expecting it to happen someday anyway).

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

They should have let him retire years ago. IMHO it's cruel to expect someone to continue working in that condition. I'm sure he'd have said it's what he wanted, but only because that's what was expected of him: If he'd had the option of retiring gracefully at the age of (say) 70 then I don't doubt he'd have taken it.

The idea of "Pope for life" was probably dreamed up in the middle ages when your average Pope could expect to die of assassination/ good living/ some nasty medieval disease long before reaching old age or infirmity. Our (UK) royal family is facing a similar problem brought on by the same cause: Judging by the age the Queen Mum achieved before dying (about 110, I think), by the time Queen Liz dies, our Prince Charlie will probably be an octagenarian at least. He had his children comparatively late, but he can expect an even longer lifespan, due to improved medical science, so his son will also be old when he comes to the throne. Unless Charles passes the crown directly on and skips a generation (as I suspect he will) rather than take it for himself, we will never have a young monarch again. I'm not sure that it actually matters, mind you, but in these days when pontiffs and monarchs benefit from such a high level of medical care attention, life expectancies are too long for these "until death" roles to be viable.

I'm not a Catholic or a Christian so generally I don't really care what the vatican does or doesn't do as far as internal policy goes, but seeing that poor, ill old man struggle painfully to work through the years of his life that should have been given over to rest, recreation and reflection was just heartbreaking.

I'm not expecting Catholicism to drag itself out of the dark ages all at once, but I think they could at least offer the next Pope a retirement clause.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

As I understood it he could of retired but didn't want to, I vaugely remember some fuss when a German cardinal suggested that he retire.

I can understand why he stayed on, I mean what do you do after being the pope? You can't really just fade into the background.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I'm not a believer in any God or Creator, but still I want to express my sympathies. The poor man seemed like a kind caring person, and I respected him greatly. May he rest in peace.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

In my opinion his death a good event for two reason :
_he stop suffer
_he will no more be manipulated by others. I can't think that he was really taking any decision.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I agree with Dogscoff and Frederick......
I really felt sorry for that man the last year. Really, really sick as he was, but still on 'the job' as catholic world leader...... IMPOSSIBLE.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Uhhh what is 'The Job'? Alot of world travel, speeches, the odd blessing to crowds and...

It doesn't seem the world's toughest job, especially as he'd had decades to establish his position on any important issue, so it wasn't as if he had to make difficult theological decisions about complex issues, he'd already made them.

However you've got to admire the man for keeping going with all that he's been through and to keep on going right to the end. Glad he's got some peace now.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

True. I mean it's not like he could sit back and watch the grandkids grow up like most old folks do...

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I'm not exactly the holiest guy on Earth either, But my sympathies. John Paul II was a great pope in comparison to most who went before him. He managed to lead the Catholic Church quite well into modern times.

Although I don't like a lot of Catholic Beliefs he certainly did a lot more good than Evil. I hope he rests peacefully.

Dogscoff: The Pope can retire, if he chooses. I think 6 Popes have abdicated in history... (looks up Wikipedia) The last time one did was Waaaay back in 1409. All Popes can resign if they wish, but there's a lot of controversy and Issues about it if they do so. Wikipedia: Papal Abdication

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Oh yes , I admire the man......but that's the whole point: After his life as an pope and his devotion, My opinion is that he deserved it to stand down and life/die in peace.
But I know (or I hope) it was his own decision.....

Inti,

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Interesting link RD. However I still think it's likely (or at the very least, possible) that he clung on out of duty rather than preference. From that Wiki page RD supplied:

The solution should be to set an arbitrary retirement limit: All popes must retire at age X, or when certain medical conditions apply. Then there would be no question of them having been 'ousted'.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

The pape can said "Do not use condom" or "abortion is acceptable/is not acceptable" and be followed by a decent amount of personn. It prove that he has to take important decision so I prefer him to be fully fonctionnal.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Ahh but my point was that he'd already made all those decisions or statements years, or decades, earlier. Everyone knew what his position was on those issues.

When he spoke out on the Terri Schiavo issue was anybody anywhere surprised at which side he took?

And you can bet the next pope will probably agree, after all he appointed most of the people who will elect his sucessor.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Good luck getting *that* through the College of Cardinals.

Heh.

We'll see how long it takes to see white smoke...

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I read a few years ago an article somewhere about the most likely candidates for his successor. I seem to recall that at least half of them were black.

Imho the catholic church has done more to increase bigotry over the years than to counter it, but I think the election of a black pope would send a poweful message that you don't have to be a white guy to be an influential figure in the western world. (Although it probably helps http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...s/rolleyes.gif )

Big question is, how long before we get a *female* pope?

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Well according to the bookies the favourite is an Italian pope (they do have ~20% of the college of cardinals) Cardinal Tettamanzi apparently the 3/1 favourite. Cardinal Arinze from Nigeria is next out at 7/1. Cardinals from Brazil, Honduras and Germany finish off the top five at 9-10/1.

A female pope? You are joking right?

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

White smoke from the college of cardinals means they have a majority vote. Black smoke means they are still undecided. It is an ancient tradition, which I am not sure if they still perform.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I was 12 years old when JPII was selected. I remember the white smoke. I'm sure they still do it.

I, being Lutheran, was raised to have a healthy amount of criticism for the Roman Catholic Papacy. But when I read that he had passed away, I was sad. Even sadder when I read the synopsis of his life and how much genuine good he had done in the world. He was a good man, indeed. Speaking from a purely christian-fundamentalist perspective being good isn't what gets you to heaven, but if the man's "good works" were a true reflection of his faith then he's on his way.

Sadly and respectfully,
Turin

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

That sounds nice. Good idea.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Probably not for a long time. Papal succession is determined by high-ranking, old clergy. I believe the requirement is being a cardinal and over the age of 60, someone here probably knows the exact age. Currently, the Church says that only males can be clergy, so we would have to wait for that restriction to be lifted first. Then it would probably take a century or two for a female to rise to cardinal, and thus have the possibility of a vote in selecting a new pope. Although I guess it may be possible for a female to be selected to lead the Church by a bunch of celibate males...

Kind of along that note, I believe it is *possible* to select a lay person to be a pope, but highly unlikely. In that case, to get a lay female pope would need to overcome opposition from those who want a cardinal, AND those who want to keep it males-only.

Anyway, back on-topic, he seems to have led a good and fulfilling life, and that's all that can be asked.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

So what you're saying is that in two hundred years or so the Catholic church might be ready to enter the nineteenth or twentieth century http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

That's a bit optimistic don't you think? We will probably reach Mars before we get a female pope. Based on: JP II wasn't a big fan of more female priests. He appointed 98% of those who pick his replacement and I have a feeling they'll go with a youngish pope so he'll have a (potentially) long time in the job.

Whatever the next Pope does he'd better take an example from the Church of England on how exactly not to handle the issue and practically split the entire church on a huge number of issues.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Errm Phil, with Bush's plans we'll be reaching Mars in 30 years or so. I definitely believe we will reach the irony dusty world before the year 2050.

Back OnT,

I am not a religious person AT ALL, but nonetheless I respected him greatly, and I was saddened as well when I heard the news.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Yeah but getting to Mars is a beast of an engineering project, and when was the last one of those that ever came in on schedule?

That's assuming it doesn't get canned. Let's face it in four years time there's a new Presidente who may decide not to spunk the GDP of several large African countries on going to Mars. So getting to Mars before 2050, could happen, but equally it could get kicked into the long grass by a different administration.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Before 2050 ?? I would be very surprised. There is plenty of problêms that need lot of money, and funds are lacking for that. Remember that for now mars mission are below 50% success

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Before 2050 is just what I think - or at least hope. Even if the US administration cancels the project, there are still the Europeans, and more recently the Chinese. Another administration might restart the project, there might be an international collaboration (think ISS but then bigger) that would attempt that, etc. etc. etc.

edit: repaired end bold tag

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Hope I'll give you. I think we can discount the ESA, lets be honest they do struggle to get a rocket working properly. Chinese who really knows?

But we are talking a massively expensive project with no real benefit. There's almost nothing you couldn't get out of unmanned missions that a manned mission could do. I mean before attempting anything manned virtually bullet proof tech. would be needed, so just stick that in an unmanned probe and you slice costs by several orders of magnitude.

I think the moon race sums it up, the US loafs up there and.... Doesn't send men back because there's no reason to go. The moon race at least had the vauge justification of beating the Soviet Union, advances in missile technology, etc.

The only reason to go to Mars is the prestige or because its there. Hell of a reason for spending trillions of dollars.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Why go into space? I think this explains it:

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Mining asteroids? *cough* b***ocks *cough*

Sorry about that but I am a minig engineer and the idea is ridiculous. The costs will be brutal, certainly epically in excess of any deposit on earth. Hell getting gold out of seawater would be cheaper.

Assuming dirt cheap space flight and all the other odds and ends to get enough gear to the asteroid, or move the asteroid to your mining site, you face two major problems.

1. Nickel-Iron compounds are very very tough. How on earth are you going to cheaply break them up?
2. So you have your small chunks of nickel-iron. How do you get the gold out. Any recovery process relies on communation (breaking down the ore) which as we've established is difficult/expensive and then there's actually getting to the gold.

Now of course the tech. for all this probably will be developed, but frankly my money would be on other planet mining happening. Mercury probably would be the best prospect, lots of solar energy and it's very dense which would suggest lots and lots of heavy metals in the crust.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Mining asteroids for goldwould indeed be expensive I agree (or rather go with you, you're the mining student here) but what if you look for other metals? Perhaps the nickel-iron compounds ARE the stuff you're looking for.

And about mining the asteroid:

You don't need to get the asteroid anywhere, just pick a rather large, rather static one at the edge of the Belt and place robotic/remotecontrolled drills there to extract materials. Excess materials (like simple rock) could be vented into space or stored separately, the ores you want could be picked up periodically by (again) robotic/RCed transport shuttles that ferry the cargoes to a space station or colony where it is processes then shipped, or simply shipped out and processed elsewhere.

It could be a massively useful exploit once we exhaust Earth's raw material deposits.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Exhaust? Most of the metal is simply rusting in conveniently-placed piles. Admitadly, we will have a problem with fossil fuels, but, among other things, I saw a show on nova, I think it was, once, about some people who had gotten candlewax to burn at 85% the efficiency of rocket fuel.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Going to space for natural resources is pretty implausible unless some kind of major technological revolution, I'd agree.

In the near future, it'd all be about tourism and vanity.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Narf, that would be paraffin. That is indeed candlewax, but it has been in use as a liquid fuel since the Industrial Revolution IIRC. And about the metals, yes, you are right, but if we plan to colonize our system we will need mucho mucho metallicos and that is present in the Asteroid Belt. I don't know/think that we will be able to make do with Earth's production once we get a few colonies up-and-running.

And I wasn't necessariy talking about the near future, it could be 200 years from now, or 1000, or 10000, I don't know. I was just stating that it could be plausible to mine asteroids.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

We are talking a century plus, minimum, for all major metals. One Brazilian iron ore mine, on it's own, could supply the world for over a century at current rates. Some speciality ones less, but then no-ones been prospecting for them becuase well, they're speciality.

Take Tantalum. Barely until mobiles phones and other small electronics come along, then wallop massive demand. On Australian exploration firms finds a very nice deposit, gets it going and grabs 70-80% of the market. So on paper when that runs out we run out of Tantalum, however:

1. Once Greenbushes was open everyone stopped looking because you not only had to find a deposit you had to find a really cheap one. Given it was rare to start with no-one bothered.
2. Tantalum can be subsituted with Selinium and shed loads of other sutff from the weirder parts of the periodic table
3. Worst case there's always slave labour mined Tantalum from Sierra Leone, DRC and other west/central Aftican war zones. You didn't think it was just blood diamonds did you?

So frankly I can't see asteroid mining happening.

Fossil fuels: Coal for almost half a millenium, oil/gas there's been only 35/40 years left for almost 40 years now. Whilst that can't go on forever there's still most of Siberia, Antarctic, Alaska, Rockall and the deep South Pacific basin to explore. Not even counting oil shales/sands of which the US known reserves could meet their oil needs for around 350 years.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I SAID it could be 10k years or more..... sheesh.

Asteroids
 

Well remembering all that took a while, so I didn't actually see your newer post before I finished.

If your kicking it out that far then no-one's can claim to make a stab based on anything other than guess work. So here goes http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

I'd guess that once most of the solar system is colonised and/or terraformed that's when asteroid mining is going to come into it's own. Loads of cheap fusion or cleverer power, funky hi-powered lasers or some clever anti-matter explosives to break the buggers up and robotic processing plants. Let's be honest with enough power to throw at a problem you can normally solve it.

Finally once you've gone to all the effort of terrafroming a planet you're going to want to keep it nice and clean, so planetery mining isn't going to be popular.

Re: Asteroids
 

The answer is both simple and on-project: The Catholic Church should fund the next Mars mission. They've got loads of money, and a mission like this could really help improve their image of being out-of-date and out-of-touch. Nothing would bring them up to the cutting edge like a boundary-pushing science project.

I'm sure some justification could be invented: extra real-estate needed for the vatican, searching for heaven/ God, want to test the power of prayer at relativistic speeds... someone will think of something.

Once they've put the money in, tried the hardware and proven the concept, the rest of us can follow in their footsteps and colonise Mars. http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

It's not actually such a crazy idea: Way way back the church used to be at the forefront of astronomy and the sciences- until scientists started getting burned alive for discovering the wrong things anyway.

Re: Asteroids
 

oopss.... we almost went back on topic there. careful.

Turin[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Getting back to the subject...

I really don't want to step on any toes here, or offend anyone, but...I really can't see what all the fuss is about. I mean, I'm not a religious person at all, so the whole idea of the pope being God's chosen representative on Earth...well since I'm not religious, you can already see what I think of that. He was just a man! And even if he was God's representative on Earth, he was still just a man. People would be focussing too much on the man, and not enough on what he's supposed to represent. People who don't even know him, crying? Why? Sure, it is sad anytime a good man dies, which I have no doubt the Pope was. But my great-grandfather was a good man too, did people around the world cry for him when he died?

I simply don't understand it. I hope no one gets offended that I've voiced my opinion on the subject. I wasn't sure if I should, but I believe everyone here is mature enough to respect other's opinions.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Your opinion is noted. Some people are affected by it however, and so their opinions are duly noted as well, having been the ones who started this thread.

Turin

OT: Trying to start some new character mayhem in the Bar&Grill btw. Stop by.

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]Turin[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif[/img]

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Religion divides people, faith brings them together. This I believe and firmly adhere too. I respect those who choose to buy into a any regilion, and I believe that it is their right to worship their religion over just having faith in the the belief of God if they so choose.

I personally am not at all bothered by the Pope's death, however, I do hope they give him a nice send off for all those years he had to go without a women or a little boy to keep him company.

I have often wondered how many bodies are buided under that little country.....and of what age they are?

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Italy is not a natural peninsula at all. It was supposed to be a depression in the Mediterranian Sea. The entire peninsula rests on the dead bodies of past Popes.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Actually, something occurred to me the other day that Renegade has just reminded me of.

The Pope is supposed to be God's representative on Earth, right? And according to catholics everywhere, and lots of other people besides, this particular Pope was a good Pope, right? Therefore, all (or at least, most) of the stuff he did during his life was stuff that God would have approved of, right? So God will want to look after him in the afterlife, surely? In other words, in the eyes of Catholics everywhere, the Pope-just-passed must stand a pretty good chance of getting into heaven.

So why are thousands of those same catholics sitting in the vatican praying for him? He's going to heaven! What can their prayer possibly do for him that's better than that? Wouldn't it be logical for all those people to be devoting their efforts to someone a little more borderline? Someone who actually needs a bit of divine favour, rather than someone who's already earned a ton of it for themselves?

And if the Pope really does need that much prayer, despite all his good works in God's name, then the rest of us are truly shafted...

I'm not being flippant, I just want to understand the logic behind it...

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

What man has the right to claim to be Gods personal representative to man? What gave this religion the right to make that claim? Surely God himself did no such thing and to claim otherwise would be a lie would it not?

I want to feel sorry for people who buy into religion about the same way I feel sorry for the people who buy into cults. If their that needy, that blind, that desprate, then so be it, its their business and not mine.

At least, or so I hope, more good comes from the Cathlic Church than bad, and I don't see hords of fanatical Cahtlics out blowing up buildings, cars, trains, themselves, or beheading inocent people for no reason other than to be blood thursty sadists all in the name of God.

I now know why Islam (sp) was viewed by western cultures as the worship of satan... by their view, and I guess even by todays standards, killing inocent people in the name of God via severing their head off of their bodies with a two inch pocket knief would seem like something a bad person would do.... Then again, western culutres tacked peopled to crossess and let them bleed to death in the burning heat of the sun or freezing cold of winter so by islamic beliefs the western cultures were barbaric.

Religion divides people, faith brings them together.

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

Opinions are opinions. Let's don't get into a religious argument here on the forum (religion and politics=bad topics of discussion universally) and let's don't bash Catholics in a thread about the Pope.

In fact, let's not bash anything.

Except NullAshton's head in the Bar & Grill...

[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/Dagger.gif[/img]Turin[img]/threads/images/Graemlins/icon42.gif[/img]

Re: ot: 1 min of silence
 

I couldn't agree with you more Turin.