How do you defend against an Abysian devil rush?
 

I've discovered in a PBEM game that it's easy for Abysia to produce at least 6 devils before turn 20. (In my game it was around turn 15.) Those devils, especially when mixed with Lava warriors and Abysian infantry, can take on almost anything at this early stage of the game. I doubt many home provinces could defend against a bee line rush from such a force. Can any other nation equal such a formidable force so early in the game? How do you counter the Abysian devil rush?

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Any nation with air magic should be able toast them without to much trouble with lighting bolt. Other than you mostly have to hope your pretender is up to it (also the H3 spell banish demon does not hurt). As for formidable early forces, they have nothing on a van W9F9 bless or a niefel N9 bless rush.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Jotunheim can counter them. Rain, Jotun Spearmen, and imps do a good job... Devils and lava warriors have no shields, so xbows work well on them too. Atlantis and Tien Chi might find cold bolts effective, once the devils are at close range, and the mages are surrounded by a shell of infantry. Atlantis can also use poisoned armor to their advantage against devils, imps, and fiends that attack with claws. Ulm troops can probably fight devils OK, since their armor is hard to penetrate with no weapons... and any Death-2 nation should be able to overwhelm them with undead.

Staff of Storms prevents flight, casts lightning bolts, and in general is very good against devils... preventing them from slipping behind your lines and killing commanders and archers.

What nation were you having trouble with? I can't think of any that are utterly defenseless against 6 devils by turn 15, unless you were unlucky in the initial expansion, or took drain on a difficult-reasearch map, or something... I find mid-game devils powered by soul contracts to be much more worrisome.

I'm not saying devils are weak - quite the opposite; I think they (along with fiends of darkness) are way overpowered for their research level, magic level, and cost. But if you expect them, there are some ways to deal with them... though it's not usually national infantry, aside from Jotunheim and Atlantis. And Ryleh, of course.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

And Mictlan !
The Jaguar warriors can be massproduced and especially with f9 w9 dualbless they are quite strong too .

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Devils do have Trident, which is dam-7 IIRC, and long enough to negate the poison armor.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Ah... right. I was thinking of fiends and imps, forgot Devils didn't use claws. My bad http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif That makes it more difficult...

I will say that Vaettir are good at overcoming Devil's high defense, though, which is their biggest problem... Vaettir are cheap, strong enough to hurt devils, and form cute little squares of 6: 6 attacks, with the last one at a -5 defense penalty, if the devil is only attacked by a single group of them. Ulm is in trouble, I guess, though flails and arbalests might work, at high resource cost. Atlantis... with the right blessing, Mother Guards are pretty good, but otherwise you'd just want to throw cold bolts, I suppose.

You can always model some things in the sim, to decide which melee type at your disposal is best against devils, and use them as a shield to protect your mages or xbows. Or, with things like centaur warriors, just kill the devils with them.

As a last resort, you can make a totem shield or two, which will preferentially curse the devils, since they're big. Then they can even be taken out by normal infantry or archers. A few commanders with eye shields should work too... and if they're mounted, and you give also them other things like (main gauche / sword of swiftness), (pendant of luck / bracers of defense / cat charm), (chain mail of displacement), then they might even survive http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif But that's increasing the cost quite a bit, for a slim chance of survival.

This is all theoretical, by the way, except for the Jotun stuff. Be sure to tell me if it works http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Devils have a tail attack also, length zero, which gets them poisoned.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

The cheapest defense vs any high-defense unit is just a wack of archers. Devils have only 8 prot so even a normal short bow will wound them (tho admittedly it will take several arrows to bring down a single devil). So just buy hordes of indy archers. Expect the player controlling the devils to attack your archers and just split them up or have enough to manage.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I'm playing Caelum, the Raptors theme. I really don't have anything to counter the Devils and Abysian infantry.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Just get a few of your best mages casting lightning bolt while something holds off devils for a few turns (undead, heavy infantry, your pretender).

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I'm assuming you are talking Spine Devils, rather than "devils", because I don't think there is any way for Abyssia to get together 480 blood slaves by turn 15 (or even 20 earth gems and 360 blood slaves, which if they have a god with 3 earth).

In any case, with Caelum you can smite these bad boys down even as the Raptors. Get yourself some Staves of Storms and learn Orb Lightning. A pile of Orb Lgihtning firing Harabs with a nondescript blob of Corpse Constructs in front will tie up the Spine Devils virtually forever while you shred them to nasty pieces. Putting out Blizzard Warriors in groups of one out there to soak damage while the lightning does its work helps too.

-Frank

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

You don't need soul contracts to get devils. 42 slaves is all that is needed for 6 devils.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Yes, I'm talking about Devils. All you need is 42 slaves which is very easy for Abysia to get in short order. How on earth can Caelum have enough air gem resources and construction research to start forging staff of storms by turn 20?

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

It is possible to get one by then, but it is also quite possible to defeat a handful of devils without one.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

How do you script the raptors effectively? I give them attack rear orders and they still kill themselves attacking the front lines.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

'Attack Rear' only works as intended about 25% of the time, and depends a lot on how big the enemy army is and how it is deployed. Setting them to guard a flying commander, and the commander to (hold)(hold)(hold)(hold)(hold) Attack Rear works better. But the best way is if they have archers and you use the attack archers command.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I've never played them. I imagine that 2 elders and 2+ seraphs in the middle of a cluster of Wingless or Caelian Archers, with evocation 2 and enchantment 3, would be able to kill 6 devils with arrows and lightning, while holding them off with skeletons... and be done before the Abysian infantry reaches them. Giving each elder a girdle of might and / or a skull staff would be helpful too.

No Caelian units can avoid or survive hits from Fire-blessed lava warriors, so just throw tons of cheap units against them, and try to take out the commanders with "Hold and attack rearmost." This would be especially useful to take out Abysian priests so they can't banish your stream of skeletons... but "attack rearmost" is really a luck-based move, and often they don't really attack rearmost.

Letting loose a few mammoths in the enemy ranks can cause great havoc, too, but they're so expensive that I probably wouldn't buy them unless I could make them ethereal, regenerating, and stoneskinned... or I had no other options. They work well against Abysians, though, as they have low defense and can't avoid trample. Be sure to group them with Wingless.

Return of the Raptors is pretty weak compared to default, but if you spend as much on Wingless and Mammoths as he does on Lava Warriors, you'll probably win a battle between the two.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I suspect (but I am not sure) that putting "Attack Rear" troops farther forward makes them attack closer to the enemy rear. "Hold and Attack : Rear" also gives the enemy troopers a chance to leave behind their vulnerable mages and priests.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I just wanted to chime in in defense of my favorite faction and say that Ulm wouldn't have much trouble dealing with a devil rush, at least not more than anyone else. It's called Blade Wind, people! http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I fought his main force at one of my watch towers and I can confirm he had 10 Devils and 50 Lava Warriors at turn 20. I did destroy most of his force (his Vampire Queen and 4 Lavas survived), but at great cost to my self. I lost all 9 Mammoths and 67 (of 74) wingless and Raptors, and 2 Seraphs. The only thing that really saved me is the Mammoths attacking his rear which killed 3 of his commanders and my Pretender, a strong Prince of Death, casting death spells (though he did get a "weakened" affliction in this battle.) As expected, my Raptors committed suicide by attacking his Lavas directly. They simply evaporated. I must learn to use them correctly. I don't think I can hold out. I'm on a small map and I'm sure he's cranking out at least 1 Devil per turn and who knows how many Lavas.

By the way, my Pretender kept casting Fear at the Berserk Lavas (morale 99). Does that do any good or is it a case of poor casting AI?

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rush?
 

They could likely produce many more if they decided to go all out for devils. Black Forest Ulm can easil manage 44 blood slaves by turn 8, and Abysia has better blood hunters than that.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Ah... you meant 6+ total. Yeah, that shouldn't be a problem. I thought you meant 6+ per turn, which is really early for that sort of thing.

Yeah, by turn 15 an Abyssian player can have a Devil Factory up and get one every turn for the rest of his life, so 6+ by turn 20 should be expected. And Devils die pretty well to massed lightning bolts, so you should be able to wipe these guys out. The 50 Lava Warriors is the actual problem here, but again you should be able to take advantage of their lack of ranged attacks to cause grevious damage.

For example:

Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Lightning Bolt, Retreat.

Try it on the Harab Elders, it's hilarious. The Lava Warriors take some serious damage and kill nothing. You have serious archery superiority to these guys, and if you use it properly, you should be able to kill them faster than they can conquer you.

-Frank

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

How do you protect your mages from the Devils? I find the Devils usually fly back and kill them before they get off a few spells. Do you tie up a bunch of troops on guard commander orders, or what?

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

No. First off, get yourself about 5-10 Blizzard Warriors for every Harab Elder. Now put them in groups of 1-2, put them on "fire whatever" and then take those groups and distribute them pseudo-randomly about the battlefield. Most of them should be distributed up and down in front of the commanders, but some of them can profitably be held in the rear.

The pathing on the "attack rear" order is such that such troops will go to the back end of the first or second thing that gets in their way. So a bunch of little groups spoofs "attack rear" almost all the time. That and a couple of archer groups actually in the rear will mean that if any Devil finds a hole in your line it's still jumping one of your pigeon archers that you don't give a damn about.

If you have a problem filling up the ranks, go ahead and have a "create skeletons" order at the beginning, as this will leave Devils lost in a sea of transient undead long enough to be silenced with lightning.

Caelum, even Return of the Raptors, is blessed with relatively cheap leaders who can spam Orb Lightning and Thunderstrikes with no Gem investment at all. As such, people who are trying to rush with "pretty decent" troops that cost real gems should be sucker punched by your leaders. Remember that as Caelum your troops are there only to distract your enemies' army long enough for your leaders to deliver victory to you.

But you are going to need those screening troops. Otherwise your inestimable leaders will be shredded to pieces. They are made of paper mache, after all.

-Frank

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Yes. If I know the enemy uses fliers, I always surround my precious mages with infantry... unless I'm forgetful. "Guard Commander" or "Hold and Attack" are both fine.


Fear is useless on berserked units, and nearly worthless on blessed units. The reason to group Wingless and Mammoths together is just to give the group a high morale, so the mammoths don't rout and trample your own units... but 5.5 wingless per lava warrior should be somewhat effective, at a 1:1 cost ratio. I'm glad the mammoths worked, at least!

You may want to group raptors in several small clusters, hoping that ONE of them correctly attacks rearmost.

If you can get evocation 5, Shadow Blast (2 death, 1 gem) is great. Abysians have high MR, but with a penetration aid and high death magic level, a Prince of Death might still be able to take out many of them with a single shot. And Thunder Strike - especially on Harab Elder with Boots of the Messenger, Winged Helmet, Summmon Stormpower during a storm, and Aim - is devastating.

Be sure to have Seraphs cast Quickness if they are just tossing lightning.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

The best way to use Raptors is not to recruit them. They are trash units and your gold is better spent elswhere. Spend it instead on Seraphs and Caelian Archers. Speaking of, why werent there any archers in the battle you just mentioned?? Archer Mob + Wind Guide + Seraphs should be pretty effective. Anyway, leave the melee combat to your Wingless + Mammoths or some cheap chaff like SC and others have suggested.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I didn't recruit archers because they seemed pretty useless vs. the heavily armored Abysians in my test games vs. the AI. They would fire a few volleys and then get toasted in close combat.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Yeah, I avoid using archers against units with 12+ protection... longbows and crossbows are much more cost effective. Javelins would work, too, considering that any infantry up against the Lava Warriors will die in one hit, but Jav infantry will at least get to toss a couple javelins before they engage in melee.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Any infantry is going to have a hard time damaging the Lava Warriors and is generally going to die in short order as well.

That's why you want to keep your units from "bunching" in order to maximize the amount of retail (rather than wholesale) killing your enemies can inflict on your side.

And that's where archers shine. They don't move, so they don't clump up and die. Your leaders are going to fly off as soon as your troops all break, so you want to maximize the amount of separate units of crap. And you want to make them stay separate.

Blizzard Warriors aren't there to cause casualties, they are there to draw fire and keep your enemy from killing or routing your Harabs.

-Frank

-Frank

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Archers are not very effective vs heavy armor, no. But your post is about how to defend vs a Devil Rush. Devils have only 8 prot and thus can be wounded relatively easily by the short bow. On top of this fact the tactical command Fire Flyers should precisely target the Devils out from all the masses of Abysians.

This said, don't completely rule out the effectiveness of shortbows vs armored opponents. Particularly those without shields, like lava warriors. You won't make many kills but you can cause a lot of wounds which, if the unit in question does not beserk (can't recall if lava warriors do), will damage the enemy squad's morale. An excellent thing to do to abysians, given that if they rout, you will massacare them all due to thier slow speed.

Also, where are you placing your archers such that they only get off "a few volleys"?

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

They do go berzerk.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I generally place archers in the rear or on the flanks and forward a little bit.

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

I've never seen shortbow archers be very effective vs Devils. Sure they get off a couple volleys and wound some devils, but unless a Storm is on there are soon some Devils targeted at Archers that come kill them. And if Storm is on the arrows aren't effective (even with WG).

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Just spread them out, like Frank suggested

Re: How do you defend against an Abysian devil rus
 

Thanks for all the great advice in this thread. I played a few test battles using the strategy of spreading out my archers and having Seraphs cast lightning and found that to be pretty effective against Devils set to attack rear.