.com.unity Forums - Semi-OT: Regards to my Game Story

Hello all I have noticed a decline in the reads on my story since it has hit a more "controversial" point in it's telling and a lot more people have made comments on how it is getting more dicey well I'd like to explain.

I beleive some of you may be backing away because several of you have noted that you beleive Icara to be a future version of Nazi Germany and that since none of us like Nazi's none of us would like to read a story about them now would we?

Please let me say that if I have caused offense I am sorry as I meant none and now please let me explain why Icara is the way it is and how they actually are in my view.

As many of you who have been reading from the begining know Icara is from a parallel history, one that could have happened if our own history had taken only a rather slight turn of events, because I did not want to offend any specific ethnic group or make any specific group sound hostile I chose to make up a nation.
Icara was once upon a time a small city state in Greece at the dawn of history they were poets, priests and philosophers unfortunately they were also located in Lacedonia (where Sparta called home) and were invaded by Sparta.

Icara's first government was actually a true monarchy ruled over by two kings, and was extremely patriarchal, women were property who were not allowed to be shown in public unless it was to be bought, sold or married off.

When Sparta invaded the Icaran military was swept aside like flies yet the two kings continued to send out their forces foolishly until half the Icaran populace was gone, unfortunately because of the fact that most of the losses were sustained in battles the vast majority of those dead were the male population, leaving women at a nearly two-one ratio.

One man named Alexander rose up, struck down these corrut kings and changed the face of world history forever, he drafted women into the army as archers, and light cavalry while the men made up the infantry columns.

The war ended with Sparta conquered and her male population virtually exterminated, Alexander was proclaimed Praetor as his people believed him chosen by God to rule mankind.
And so the crusades began Icara fought a seemingly endless war of conquest for the next thousand years, vowing that they would never again be the victims of others.
Read the first intro for the rest of it.

The rest is history, however even in the Imperial year 6004 (when they left their new homeworld of Icara)they were almost terrified of being turned into victims once again and so decided that they would have to rule over the all the worlds they found in order to ensure their own survival.

That is how it all started in the story, now the reason they are so harsh to Xenos is because they are also terrified of "genetic mutation" or interbreeding of any form that would corrupt the human gene pool and unleash who knows what kind of plagues, and so Xeno's were deemed less then sentient by both the Icaran state Church and the Icaran Government.

Religion:
I know that the religious aspects I have brought up may also be of some controversy as I have mentioned that Heretics are shot.

Now to specify my own religious views, I am a Christian but I have friends of many religions, i even have a wicken friend who I enjoy debating religion with a great deal because she has as much fun debating as I do.

Now the Icaran term "Heretic" is not as we think of it for indeed Icara does have several religions as I have briefly touched on, however they are all creationist religions because Icara beleives that faith and religion are the basis of stability in any society, especially one with hundreds of billions of people across hundreds of worlds.

When Icarans say "heretic" they mean people like Bin Laden who twist the words of God to be used to kill women and children for no other purpose then to destroy.
This may seem hypocritical as the Icarans themselves consider their war against the Andermanian alliance (which has thus far cost the alliance 7 billion people and Icara over a hundred thousand) a holy crusade, yet in their mind this is not a religious problem because they are doing it to unify mankind not rip it apart.

Other heretics in Icaran society would include any form of cult or satanic organization, and the reason the leaders (and in some cases all members) of these cults are exterminated is beacuse in the Icaran mind, they are all anti-government and would be a risk to the entire Empire. Athiests are also not permitted to form organizations for similar reasons.

The religions of the Icaran Empire are thus:
The Path (state church, modified Christianity and vast majority of Icaran populace)
True Islam (not these nut cases we see on TV)
Buddihsm (sp?)
Christianity
And some worlds even have a small Hindu populace

The Supreme Dominance of Man:
This ties into the religion and fear of mutation, they beleive God made man to be supreme among creation and so Mankind has the right to rule the galaxy and isolate or exterminate the Xeno populations they encounter, yes this is very un-startrek like yet in many ways it is also very human to cloak the fear of the unknown behind racist and religious excuses for isolating that fear from us.

The State Education:
Due to dramatically advanced technology children in school all receive the same level of education, however it is received in a very unique way, instead of reading books or watching videos the work is transmitted directly to the memory areas of the brain and thus introduced far more efficently, in the child's mind they have spent 12 hours in school, yet in fact they have only spent 4.
Icaran public schools are nothing like their present day counterparts, everyone wears a military style uniform and classes are referred to as "squads" which are then broken down to "teams" with the students being called "cadets", school periods are called "watches" and teachers are referred to as "instructor" while the principal is called "Commendant".

The Icaran school system also emphasizes physical education and mental discipline, there are no fat school children in Icara, every school day four hours is devoted to Martial Arts, Running, Swimming, obstacles and competative games.
Every student is equal in the eyes of the school no matter their race or religion, every cadet is taught the moral principles of self sacrifice for the good of others, they are taught that their squadmates are to be treated as family and that any breach of discipline will result in harsh punishment.
Squads march to and from classes, no one runs anywhere unless it is part of class, and no one talks until they have their one hour break period every day or unless it is required by their class.

The schools of Icara are also moral institutions in that they see themselves as responsible for helping parents introducing morality into their child by making sure the school situation is as proper as possible and anyone walking down the halls to see posters reading such things as:

Promiscuity is like treason to ones self
Fighting fellow cadets sews the seeds for destruction.
Respect your squad and you can respect yourself.

This is because Icara as a whole is actually what we could consider very very out of date, teen pregnancy for example is considered unthinkable to them unless in marriage and parents have been known to commit suicide upon finding out their daughter is pregnant or their son got a girl pregnant.

As a result of all this discipline, group mentality, and moral teaching at such a young age violent crime is almost unheard of on Icaran worlds, and people can walk down the darkest street at night without fear, doors are left unlocked and communities are true communities where neighbors get to know one another and support one another.

Crime and Punishment:
Though violent crimes are extremely rare they do happen and when they do it is nearly impossible for the criminal to escape Icaran justice, as the criminal sciences are so advanced the perp is usually found in less then a day.
Violent crime is punished on the basis of how and why it happened for example the following crimes are punished by neural resocialization:
Kidnap
Neglegent Homicide
Piloting a Craft while intoxicated
Selling Drugs
Assault with a deadly weapon
Violent Burglary

This resocialization wipes out the criminal's base personality and replaces it with one that is more social minded, many of these "mind wipes" end up in the armed forces or State Security, where it is deemed best for them to make up for their crimes.
Though Icaran justice is advanced technologically it is often what we would consider barbaric in some aspects such as the fact that there are no lawyers for criminal cases as there is no real need for lawyers because the evidence is always correct, this means that the trials are extremely brief with both guilty and innocent verdicts handed out in a mater of minutes.

Another reason we would consider their legal system is their method of punishment for certain crimes, for example:
(warning this is graphic)
Rape: One hundred lashes in public, followed by chemical steralization rendering sexual anatomy useless

Multiple Rape: Punishment is castration with a slow cut laser prior to execution.

Child Molestation: Castration with a slow cut laser prior to being drawn and quartered.

First Degree Murder: Public hanging

Kidnapping resulting in the death of a minor: Public beheading.

Neglegence resulting in the death of a minor: Public hanging.

Though seen as brutal and disgusting by our current views these are seen as acceptable by Icarans because they certainly are deterants for any of the above criminals.
On the flipside Icara has no prison sentences numbering beyond a few weeks or months because they beleive in corporal punishment as both swift and in the long term merciful to a criminal, for example:

Theft: Fifteen lashes in public first offense, increased by twenty following each offense.

Use of Drugs: Fifty lashes in public followed by federal therapy.

They see it as a waste to send someone away for years over what is in effect a minor crime that is easily fixed.

Are they Nazis?:
Short answer no
Long answer, the Icaran society would consider Nazi's as having "some good ideas" but for the most part would be repulsed by the comparison as Icara does not have death camps or anything of the sort.

Are they based on Nazi's as I said to some extent yes, but this is not because I think the Nazi regime was good but instead because if Hitler had not been an evil sadistic SOB the Nazi party did have some good ideas such as physical education for the youth, other then that there is no real comparison in my mind other thn some loose terminology.

Why did i make Icara the way I did?:
I have read and seen so many sci-fi stories where it is so cut and dry who is the good guy and who is the bad guy that it bugs me.
In Star Trek the federation was always the good guy, yet if you actually ever bothered to analyse the federation it was not a place I would want to live because it's either their way or the high way.
When most sci fi bothers to humanize the bad guy they end up making them into the good guys and bringing in a truely dispicable bastard that is evil incarnate.

I first decided to make Icara a "goody toe shoes" type government so as not to risk controversy, however after i looked at it I decided that instead of the standard sci fi gobidly gook I would create a truely unique race of people with truely unique ideals and morals.

Icara is both the ideal society and the society we all fear, by this I mean that there is almost no government corruption, no homelessness, very little crime, very little disease, two or three century long lifespans and everyone looks out for everyone else, you can get a ride from a stranger and not be afraid they are going to hurt you.
Elders are respected and never placed in "nursing homes" but instead Icaran households can have four or even five generations sitting down at the same dinner table every night.

They are the society we all fear in that they are not free by our standards, individuals have no right to vote for their leadership as the Praetor line goes back for millenia within the same familiy line, and the Nobility is all in some way related to the Praetorian family or it's many offshoots.
From the day they are born Icarans are indoctrinated with the State line the state principals an the ideology of conquest in the name of God and Empire.

In any other sci fi universe Icara would be considered evil and probobly demonized by the writers, I wanted to show why? What are they really like what do they really beleive?
Almost no one is evil or bad because they just feel like being evil and bad, Icara is no different, they beleive truely what they are doing is right and that the bloodshed and terror they are unleashing upon the galaxy will end up being a good thing for mankind as a whole and not just "the chosen few".
Icarans are human, they love their families care about their friends, Icaran boys still trip over themselves when a pretty girl walks in and Icaran girls still giggle when a handsom boy smiles at them, Icaran parents still wonder whether they raised their children right and how their future will be.
And Icarans still laugh when someone makes a joke, and still cry when they are hurting or when they lose a friend or loved one.

Icara in my mind was meant to show humanity, nothing more nothing less, there will never be a perfect society and we must in the end choose what is right and what is wrong and whether or not we will do what is right....Icara is also an optomistic view on humanity in the sense that maybe some day there will be a culture that learns how truely equal people are and learn to look at justice fairly.
And yes Icara is also a cautionary tale on how one moment of absolute tragedy can lead to many many more in the future unless we are very careful.

Now if you would all prefer I'll stop the story this way there's no worry about controversy or offending anyone on these forums. But personally I enjoy writing and would like to keep the story alive until the end.

If you have any questions or comments please post them here and I'll respond as best i can.

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Hunpecked said:
I didn't see the Icarans as neo-Nazis, but I wouldn't have minded if they were. After all, the Nazis were only the most famous of many historical (and contemporary) totalitarian regimes, and it would be ludicrous to pretend that such a society couldn't arise again in some fictional future. Philip K. Dick even based one of his novels ("The Man in the High Castle") on the premise that the Axis won World War II and conquered the globe; the book won a Hugo Award. So as far as I'm concerned, Starhawk's defense of his protagonists is unnecessary.

[/b]

Thanks for that, as I said I was growing increasingly concerned that other folks were getting similar responses that my pen pal's parents were when they told HER http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...ies/tongue.gif to stop reading it because it was I beleive their exact words were 'pro-nazi garbage' lol.

Quote:

However, his essay on Icaran society does raise some interesting points. I'm sure Starhawk sees his Icarans as genuinely happier and better off than most citizens of 21st Century Terran democracies, yet to this cynical reader the images he invokes are reminiscent of Nazi or Stalinist propaganda films, or maybe the incessant telescreen indoctrination of "1984": smiling, excruciatingly healthy schoolchildren; happy, prosperous workers; mighty dams, soaring bridges, clean cities, amber waves of grain, and so on. I'm reminded of a smiling Hitler awkwardly patting a schoolgirl on the head, a smiling "Uncle Joe" Stalin smoking his pipe, or a smiling Saddam Hussein with an apprehensive little hostage boy.

I'm glad your so observant http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif in truth as I said as a whole they are happier but look at why for one moment and you'll see that they are "happier" because they are from a history where there never was a United States or true democratic government because those few democracies that did form throughout history were far more like Lenin era Russia then they were true democracies.
Another reason they are "happier" is because they are raised to beleive they should be happy with the status quo from a very very young age, as were their parents and their parents before them going back six thousand years, that tends to cause a certain lack of questioning the government or status quo http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/images/smilies/happy.gif.

Quote:

[b]
Above and beyond the "too good to be true" factor, I find it hard to reconcile the Icarans' apparent prosperity (and military might) with the low level of automation Starhawk mentions in another thread. Without the multiplier of automation, it's difficult for a worker to produce much more (and often less) than is needed for himself and his family. There may be full "employment", but it's at a subsistence level. A textile mill may put a thousand hand weavers out of business, but it also frees them to become doctors, teachers, soldiers, scientists, and other "unproductive" (in the material sense) professionals.

Well I never said they were totally unautomated just only automated where required, to be honest this was also meant to make a point, sure "everyone has a job" but for those poor SOBs who either could not receive a proper education or just never chose to receive a proper education the only thing they have to look foward to in their lives as Icaran citizens is producing certain "non-essential" goods they are also employed in "trade specific" jobs.

Only certain portions of production are like this as well for example, the vast majority of these people end up as miners, colonial draftees, end up in the Army or StateSec being that they are obviously not smart enough to end up in the navy.

The "trade specific" jobs I spoke of are, weapons factories, shipyards, and various other areas where a small ammount of automation given their level of technology can go a long way.
Essentially Hunpecked the point I was trying to make is that even in a society like Icara which is millenia more advanced then us will still have people that are just not bright enough to be doctors or other technology oriented jobs, and in a society as advanced as Icara is at it's very baseline these people would have zero work oppurtunities in their life if these jobs were not left open for them.

Technology wise Icara is so radically advanced that a lot of their tech is so "base" in nature it's hard to tell what is technology and what is not, by which I mean what you might think is just a coffee table might also be a Holo-displayer or computer.
Even their clothes are technologically advanced with "enviroment resistant" fabrics, mini computers, even life support suites in the case of seriously ill people.

In a society like that someone who can't figure out how to work a computer is royally screwed unless there are job openings in factories, shipyards and construction fields, though I'll admit that these are also more tech based then what we'd think of today.

And as I stated they absolutely fear and distrust anything close to true AI so that also seriously limits the ammount of automation they are willing to allow.

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Finally, as illustrated by the section on crime and punishment ("...there are no lawyers for criminal cases as there is no real need for lawyers because the evidence is always correct..."), the Icaran government has no checks and balances on its power--yet the abuses of power prevalent in every other human totalitarian society are curiously absent. In other words, I just don't buy the whole "benevolent despot" thing. The idealized portrait of the Icaran rulers just adds to the whole "propaganda film" impression.

Remember the nobility, they are all related in one way or another to the Praetor and if enough of them become outraged over something the Praetor can be executed just like anyone else, as my post "Crowning a Praetor" stated three Praetors in history had been executed for simply betraying their oath to church and empire, that's not including the few that were "disapeared" by outraged church and state officials because of their "unfortunate behavior" I.E Saddams and Stalins didn't live long enough to make a real impression on history.

Also early on in the story I stated that five NOBLES were hung by the Admiralty for sending millions of people out to colonize a world that was later destroyed because the military had said they could not protect it and the nobles disobayed and did it anyway.

Essentially the "checks and balances" we'd expect to see in say a US or UK are abscent yes but that's because when someone does something wrong they are usually eliminated from the equation with speed.

Remember as I said the Icaran government is SIX THOUSAND years old, they've had their bad periods and bad governments but they've survived because the very nature of Icaran life is to be "for the greater good" because of the fact that they were as I said once priests, poets and philosphers ONLY, though that was millenia ago and they are no longer like that some of those qualities did stick with them.

As a whole think of the Icaran empire like a massive machine wherein the Praetor is the Engine, the nobility is the arms and legs, and the average citizenry is the fuel, none can survive without the other and they keep each other in check in various some times bloody ways.

As far as justice goes, quite frankly the judges have nothing personal in it because if they are caught taking bribes they are executed, so when the evidence is presented they simply examine it and come to a decision, as I said the criminal is not always guilty and those found innocent are released without so much as a black mark on their record.

To be honest if you watched the actions of Praetor Leonidas throughout the story he wasn't exactly the best ruler, he led his people into wars that killed billions of people and are even now engulfing the entire known galaxy, which by the way is over 1,800 worlds!
It no fall on his son Rodrick to take the throne, and time will tell what kind of man he will prove to be.

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[b]
Of course this is Starhawk's story and he's welcome to build his background however he likes. In fact I applaud his efforts to construct a novel good/bad future civilization, and will continue to read the story despite the perceived inconsistencies. In my limited reading of science fiction, I often find the whiz-bang "science" more believable than the social aspects of a futuristic story; it's a rare author who can come up with a plausible, self-consistent social setting for his/her characters. Enjoying science fiction always requires a certain "suspension of disbelief"; it's just that I'm usually more willing to accept the contradictions in science than the inconsistencies in human behavior (I'm not a scientist, but I've been immersed in human behavior for several decades.)

So bring it on, I say! Warp points? Sure, no problem. I-lasers? OK, whatever. The accused is always guilty? Uh, wait a minute... http://forum.shrapnelgames.com/image...es/biggrin.gif

Well in the rawest sense of the word I've never found a government in any sci-fi book movie or show that even closely resembles the Icaran government unless you mix a few sci-fi governments.
As I said the main reason there seems to be an "absence of human nature" is because we are thinking of it along the lines of what our history tells us human nature is, they're history unfolded in a very different fashion wherein the very life of the Empire hinged on their leadership, for millenia, and if you remember Icara suffered not one but two absolutely devestating moments in their history, the first was the war that made them what they are today, and the second was the betrayal by the Independant nations back in Sol who launched massive attacks against Icara and drove them from the very cradle of mankind.

That would change a society in ways I don't think an of us can ever guess at, and I took a guess in that when humans are afraid for their very existance, we tend to bond together under a strong leader, and with all their failings Icara has had a long line of strong leaders who are very good at making sure their people survive.